Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[andy mccord]

Has anyone on here ever taken there van to a commercial gearbox specialist and had it stripped down to ascertain as to whether a lower ratio reverse gear can be fitted in the box?

 

[Corky 8]

andy mccord - 2009-05-20 4:15 PM

 

Has anyone on here ever taken there van to a commercial gearbox specialist and had it stripped down to ascertain as to whether a lower ratio reverse gear can be fitted in the box?

Hi Andy,I think any Motorhome/van would have to be out of the Warranty Period otherwise you would invalidate any warranty on the Motorhome/van ,perhaps then it would be feasible

[pkc]

Andy’s Song.

 

Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away,

Then I bought a van from PSA,

Oh, I believe in yesterday.

 

Shuddery,

I’ve a van that vibrates constantly,

Not the van that it’s supposed to be,

Oh, someone buy this van off me.

 

Wrong ratio?

Asked the dealer but they didn’t know

Just know that this van has to go,

Something wrong, how I long, for yesterday.

 

On every hill,

Nearly shakes the t*ts off Fag Ash Lil,

There’s a designer that I’d love to kill,

Oh I believe in yesterday.

 

Got so stressed, load the van

And head for Budapest,

Still the fault has not been quite addressed,

Hate those guys at PSA.

 

Will this thread never end?

Wish to God I’d bought Mercedes Benz,

Are you listening out there PSA?

Oh I believe in yesterday.

 

Mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm.

 

In appreciation of all of Andy’s hard work,

Hope this lightens the mood a little.

 

For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go.

I travel for travel's sake. The great affair is to move.

R. L .Stevenson.

 

 

[Corky 8]

pkc - 2009-05-21 9:07 AM

 

Andy’s Song.

 

Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away,

Then I bought a van from PSA,

Oh, I believe in yesterday.

 

Shuddery,

I’ve a van that vibrates constantly,

Not the van that it’s supposed to be,

Oh, someone buy this van off me.

 

Wrong ratio?

Asked the dealer but they didn’t know

Just know that this van has to go,

Something wrong, how I long, for yesterday.

 

On every hill,

Nearly shakes the t*ts off Fag Ash Lil,

There’s a designer that I’d love to kill,

Oh I believe in yesterday.

 

Got so stressed, load the van

And head for Budapest,

Still the fault has not been quite addressed,

Hate those guys at PSA.

 

Will this thread never end?

Wish to God I’d bought Mercedes Benz,

Are you listening out there PSA?

Oh I believe in yesterday.

 

Mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm.

 

In appreciation of all of Andy’s hard work,

Hope this lightens the mood a little.

 

For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go.

I travel for travel's sake. The great affair is to move.

R. L .Stevenson.

 

:-D Very good very apt,nice one pkc

[AndyStothert]

Seeing as it is Poetry Week (or should that read Muppetry Week) I can't match PKC McCartney's efforts, but my resonse is:

 

 

Oh Lord Why didn't I buy a Merceds Benz,

This fiasco with Fiat will never ever end,

Oh Lord can you part exchange this Fiat for a Mercedes Benz.

 

The gearbox is still whining, the shivers it sends,

From my a**e to my brain which is the same place in end,

Oh Lord can't we sell this Fiat and get a Mercedes Benz.

 

Fiat's tactics are toughening, no way they will bend,

Customer Care our enemy, certainly not a friend,

Oh Lord if only I'd bought a 'kin Mercedes Benz

 

 

 

[michele]

OH LORRRRRD won't you buy me a MERCEDES BENZ ................ta da a aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

:D :D :D :D

 

Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz

My self I drive Fiats I must make amends

Worked hard for my camper with no help from fiat freinds

It just won't reverse it sends me round the bend.

 

I tried bugging Fiat but they ain't listening

I tried to reverse it but it eat my gear box up

I worked hard all my lifetime my van is just a shell

what good is it too me it can't reverse for hell.

 

Now friends all suggested we put it on the telly

But I find myself wanting to kick it with my welly

I dont know what to do and I don't know what to say

OH Lord won't you help me cause I is getting grey !!!!!!! :D

[andy mccord]

Corky 8 - 2009-05-20 5:36 PM

 

andy mccord - 2009-05-20 4:15 PM

 

Has anyone on here ever taken there van to a commercial gearbox specialist and had it stripped down to ascertain as to whether a lower ratio reverse gear can be fitted in the box?

Hi Andy,I think any Motorhome/van would have to be out of the Warranty Period otherwise you would invalidate any warranty on the Motorhome/van ,perhaps then it would be feasible

 

Corky, I take your point, but what good is a warranty for a faulty gearbox when the company that issue your warranty cant even put it right themselves?

 

I have not had any work done to my gearbox by fiat, but I have contacted some commercial gearbox specialist's to seekout what they know about this problem & have asked if they thought they could rectify the problem. I await there response

 

Andy

[Melvin]

A new crown wheel and pinion could easily be manufactured and fitted, however, there are the setting up cost to consider, you would need to run a batch of 20 plus, a one off would be very expensive.

 

The downside would be a knock on effect to the forward ratio's, although my van is a heavy 2.3 litre and a slight reduction in sixth gear would be welcomed, for the lighter vans it prove to be impractical.

 

The mechanic who carried out the modifications to my transmission made it quite clear ' there was room to fit a lower reverse ratio, it was Fiat who decided against it'

[AndyStothert]

Melvin & co,

I have shown the photos and outlined the problems to a gearbox specialist and he reckons the installation of lower ratio reverse gear has only been possible in any way because of the unusaul nature of Fiat's solution - a spur gear, which is a low-tech slack fitting short toothed gear with knocked off edges which meshes with the new shaft.

He further said that to install a larger (lower) gear in conventional engineering terms would require moving the gear centres, or the shafts they sit on, and that the consequence would be a new gearbox casing.

In other words a new gearbox. Very very expensive multiplied by the numbers involved all over Europe.

[Guest JudgeMental]

AndyStothert - 2009-05-21 9:23 PM

 

Melvin & co,

I have shown the photos and outlined the problems to a gearbox specialist and he reckons the installation of lower ratio reverse gear has only been possible in any way because of the unusaul nature of Fiat's solution - a spur gear, which is a low-tech slack fitting short toothed gear with knocked off edges which meshes with the new shaft.

He further said that to install a larger (lower) gear in conventional engineering terms would require moving the gear centres, or the shafts they sit on, and that the consequence would be a new gearbox casing.

In other words a new gearbox. Very very expensive multiplied by the numbers involved all over Europe.

 

 

Welll thats it then........another Ford for me.

[rupert123]

I have not had any work done to my gearbox by fiat, but I have contacted some commercial gearbox specialist's to seekout what they know about this problem & have asked if they thought they could rectify the problem. I await there response

 

 

 

You will wait a long time, have you any notion what this would cost. Fiat have not come up with a complete answer because without a completely new gearbox their is not one. Does anyone seriously think that Fiat having made the mistake in the first place would then come up with a modification that is not a complete answer. They must want an end to this but their would seem to be no way out other than a completely new gearbox, this, even if they did it, would take a long time. Face it the current answer is the best you are going to get, lets hope their are a few dealers capable of rebuilding the gearbox properly, something no one does much these days.

[tonyg3nwl]

http://www.italiaspeed.com/new_models/2006/fiat/ducato/technical_specification.html

 

For anyone interested the above gives the tech specs for fiat vans including gear ratios, final drive ratios etc. I wonder if the data is for the latest vans ... if so then all the comments about reverse being higher than first dont seem to be correct. Have they now got a different gearbox?

 

Assuming I read the data correctly, from what date does the spec apply. Does a new van suffer judder ( one straight off the production line today I mean) Anyone brave enough to buy and test it .

 

I see from the link that it suggests they refer to 2006 models, in which case where has the comments that reverse is higher than first come from?

 

Are we all climbing up a gum tree complaining about ratio being wrong. or is the data sheet a load of c**p

 

As others have said, should we really be looking for judder elswhere (under the beds perhaps, or in the wardrobes, cookers, wheels, tyres etc etc, or even water tanks, loos etc.)

 

I cant find it in any of these places in my van, so it must be a myth !!!

 

tonyg3nwl

 

 

[Melvin]

I cannot understand why Fiat did not bit the bullet 2 years ago and design and manufacture a new transmission, exhaustive testing prior to going into production surely should have shown the short coming of the existing transmission. They have ruined what is to all purposes an excellent design.

 

In order for Fiat haste not to miss the market, all they have achieved is to attract a bad reputation, I am sorry I cannot understand Fiat logic, multi millions and several years of research, stuffed up by a couple of hundred pound of bodged transmission.

 

 

[Brambles]

http://www.fiatcv.com.au/cms/default.asp?action=article&ID=21777

 

Fiat's Australia website also 'appears' to be 'wrong'!!!!!

(select differemt models in right column box)

 

[Melvin]

I recieved the official transmission ratio my van from Fiat in writing November 2008. My van is a 2.3 on a Maxi 40 chassis.

 

I have just look at the Australian site first and sixth gear are identical to my ratios, however, my original reverse gear ratio was 3.154, the Australin site data shows current reverse gear ratio 4.222, that 33.86% lower than mine, but what is more significant reverse is lower than first gear 13.28%.

 

So what is going on, are the transmission being fitted to the Australian vans different, with a lower reverse gear ratio.

 

 

[Brambles]

I suspect, and could be way of the mark, the prototype pre production boxes used in trials where as the specs shown. But somewhere along the line the gearbox manufacturere(Fiat owned company) changed the design for production for sme reason. Any other Engineer in FIAT checking with wrong specs and evaluating my not have been notified so there has been a big whoopsee on FIATS part.

 

Or could it be, bearing in mind FIAT has stated this appears to be a UK owners problem our gearboxes are different. Makes one wonder if another version of the gear box actually exists NOW and always has.

[Derek Uzzell]

References to the Italiaspeed and Australian websites (plus similar comments) were made way back in early 2008 when the juddering problem arose. It's probable that the data on these sites are simply wrong and, if you study the information overall, there is some evidence to suggest that the incorrectness is down to 'finger trouble' when the data were originally input.

 

A bugbear of this Fiat fiasco is that, once it becomes apparent that the technical data can't be trusted (whatever its source), there's little point trying to makes educated guesses (never mind logical conclusions) based on it. As I once suggested, if you want to be 100% sure of what the intermediate and final-drive gear ratios are for these vehicles, you'll need to count the number of teeth on the gears themselves.

[colin weston]

Andy

I promised an update when I had my Autocruise Starburst 2.2l, 120hp 6-speed modified. Eventually Peugeot Customer Care found a dealer in Manchester who could handle the job although it would appear that my van was the first they had tackled which caused me some concern. However, having collected my van yesterday my initial impressions are that the judder is little changed. It still juddered when reversing into my drive, let alone up a gradient or on grass. Unlike you, I did not notice any noise change in reverse gear or in any of the forward gears. They had checked the clutch and told me that it was in good condition.

In my earlier engineering career I was involved in gear design and from what little I can remember it is a fairly complex subject. In the case where gearboxes are being modified by rebuild, the gear centres are of course fixed. Therefore, when trying to increase the number of teeth on one gear whilst reducing the number on the mating gear would be quite challenging and would inevitably involve some compromises. This problem, we are led to believe, is being addressed with a redesigned gearbox. If such a gearbox is compatible with 'our' vans then this is the solution that we must continue to fight for.

When I have had some more experience with this gearbox rework I will be writing to Peugeot Customer Care, the magazines, etc. Ultimately, I would be prepared to contribute to some sort of legal action as I don't want to change my van for many years, if at all.

 

[AndyStothert]

Another unsatisfactory gearbox modification then.

I've had a letter from Fiat today telling me that my van is now operating within design parameters, and that is the end of it as far as Fiat are concerned. Getting tough with us.

Has anyone ordered or been offered a 6 speed 2.2 litre 100 series Fiat?

That's right - a 6 speed 100 series van? It seems that the 5 speed box may be about to disappear along with the 2.3 litre 6 speed model.

It seems that buying either a 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiat or a 2.2 litre 5 speed Fiat is buying something which is now deemed not fit to produce.

On another note I've had a letter forwarded to me today from the owner of a 3 litre model, from Fiat, stating that Fiat have tested the 3 litre version and cannot find a defect in them? Getting tough again.

 

Anyone want to disagree? Fiat have let it slip that over 200 3 litre owners aren't happy with their Ducatos, but that they are all wrong.

[colinfrier]

www.fiatcamper.com/motors.php -

Hi Andy

Try this link FIAT say special gear ratios for Motorhomes but "With a lifetime of 300,000 km" you should get one and see if you can get 300,000 km.

[AndyStothert]

We're off travelling for while from tomorrow and I've been musing on how successful, or not, we have been over the last 18 months in spreading awareness of the reverse gear ratio problem in the Ducatos, and our attempts to get Fiat to firstly recognise the defect, then do something about it.

As quite a large band of dissatisfied customers we have managed to spread the word of our organised discontent throughout Europe, where a similar tale is now being told by continental owners, and in the end forced Fiat to respond.

The worst offender, the 2.3 litre 6 speed Ducato has ceased production - though our motorcaravan manufacturers are still happily converting the remaining stocks. Our informant from Fiat has said that some minor changes have been made to the vehicles presently being converted on this chassis (revised engine mountings) but these are purely designed to eliminate that initial juddering in the transmisison on clutch take-up, and will do nothing to reduce the vibration which damages gearboxes due to the excessively high gearing.

So buying a new 2.3 litre Ducato is still inviting trouble into your life.

The modifications which Fiat (and Peugeot of course) are undertaking to the existing gearboxes are proving totally inadequate, though it does seem that they are providing an improvement, if not a complete solution.

Fiat (and Peugeot) now have to decide how to handle this situation. An improvement which isn't a solution is not acceptable on vehicles which were bought new with no warning that they were defective. And Fiat certianly knew they were defective when they sold them to us.

A far as the 6 speed 2. 3 litre Fiats and 2.2 litre Peugeots are concerned Fiat have now dug themselves a very deep hole which they are still trying to clamber out of without accepting full responsibility, but probably can't. However dissatisfied owners of the 3 litre models are still being messed about completely, with dealers still 'testing' owners vans to ascertain if they are faulty or not. This is absolute nonsense, and is just plain evasive behaviour from Fiat - they are still trying on the same tactics from the very beginning of this fiasco, and the employees who work in 'Customer Realation' must be either completely lacking in principles or absolutely tearing their hair out. Some seem bald, whilst others are far too smooth.

I have recently written to all the magazine editors pointing out where all this is at now, and also sent the same information to directors of the two largest motorhome manufacturers. Neither have responded.

Can you all keep telling everyone you know and meet about this problem, and keep on sending those emails and letters to the magazine and clubs.

It seems that we as customers are going to have to fight Fiat every single inch to a satisfactory conclusion to this. This is the Fiat version of customer care.

Hopefully things may have changed for the better by the time we get back.

[Melvin]

I have been in contact with a very unhappy X250 owner, he reported his van whilst still in 2 year warranty, his van is now just out of the 2 year period. And yes you guessed right He has a big bill.

 

After arguments with Fiat the best he could get, was Fiat to pay for the parts, he had to pay for the labour, which went up twice, he eventually ended up paying over £900 in labour.

 

 

[colin]

Melvin - 2009-05-25 9:56 AM

 

I have been in contact with a very unhappy X250 owner, he reported his van whilst still in 2 year warranty, his van is now just out of the 2 year period. And yes you guessed right He has a big bill.

 

After arguments with Fiat the best he could get, was Fiat to pay for the parts, he had to pay for the labour, which went up twice, he eventually ended up paying over £900 in labour.

 

 

If he reported it during it's warranty period then there should be no bill, a small claims case may be in order depending on cercumstances.

[Melvin]

The clutch is not covered under the 2 year warranty, so I dont know were he stands

[Brian Kirby]

I don't want to be a Jeremiah, but I really doubt a small claims court would have any jurisdiction in this case.  You buy your motorhome from a motorhome dealer.  He represents the motorhome manufacturer in respect of warranty, but not the base vehicle manufacturer.  The base vehicle warranty is administered via the base vehicle manufacturer's agents, usually authorised repairers and dealerships for whatever make is involved, Fiat, Peugeot, Mercedes, Renault etc etc. 

You have no contractual relationship with either the base vehicle manufacturer or the representative dealership/repairer, unless your have had a service, or similar, carried out, in which case their liability would extend to the adequacy of that work and no further.

The base vehicle's warranty is a promise, no more, to repair certain defects under certain conditions.  The manufacturer decides whether, and how, he will honour that promise, and when he has fully honoured it.  You have no say in this, and no legal comeback on the manufacturer, as you have no contractual relationship with the manufacturer.

This fiasco with Fiat has amply illustrated the inadequacy of present UK and European consumer protection laws where manufacturers behave unreasonably in respect of their warranty promise, which consumers have relied upon as a security against manufacturing/design defects when buying motorhomes, and said consumers have no legal recourse against said unreasonable behaviour.

If you don't like this situation, write to your MP pointing out this anomaly, and asking him/her to press for manufacturer's warranties on such goods as motorhomes to be included in contracts for sale as though they had been offered by the dealer, with the manufacturer made ultimately legally liable for defects that are not reasonably resolved by the vendor under his sale of/supply of goods acts obligations.