Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[colin]

Brian, why cannot the dealer be taken to the small claims court? (asuming it was brought from a UK dealer) I'm hoping that the fault was first pointed out to dealer as I hope all suffers of this fault have done. If the dealer then points you in direction of Fiat and you get a bill you present it to dealer for payment, if this is not forthcoming then you take them to court. Or better still if Fiat attempt to bill you then return straight to dealer and tell them to pay.

[rolandrat]

Brian,

Have you read todays Daily Mail page 13 about the 2year guarantee thats kept secret. EU law creates a minimum period of 2years in which faulty products can be returned, and in England and Wales the figure is 6years. Customers are being denied their rights either because the staff don't know the law or because they think they can get away with it. Cusumer experts say this means they are failing to abide by the law. Chris Warner, consumer lawyer at Which, said the Sale Of Goods Act affords consumers protection up to 6years from the date of purchase. It seems based on what the lawyer has said that Fiat will have no option other than to honour the sale of goods guarantee or the supplying dealer.

[Brian Kirby]

Roland and Colin

It is because the Sale of Goods/Supply of Goods Acts only apply in respect of the vendor from whom the goods were bought.  In buying any goods you form a contract of sale, verbal or written, with the seller.  Warranties offered by manufacturers are non-contractual promises to put right defects, subject to stated conditions.  However, you have no contract with the manufacturer, only with the seller, so cannot sue the manufacturer if, in your opinion, he has not acted reasonably in dealing with a defect in your goods. 

You can take a car back to the dealer from whom you bought it, and he will (usually) be a manufacturer's franchised agent with delegated power to rectify most defects on behalf of the manufacturer, and will re-claim his costs from the manufacturer.  However, when the repair is extensive a manufacturer's rep almost invariably be summoned to sanction what will be done. 

When you buy a motorhome, even if you buy from a franchised dealer for your make of motorhome, that dealer will have no power, or authority, to implement repairs to the base vehicle.  That authority lies with the local Fiat (or whatever) dealer, to whom the motorhome dealer would have to turn to execute repairs on your behalf.

Since the motorhome dealer has no authority to make the repair, but is dependent for this on a third party over whom he has no power, I don't see how a court could hold him liable for the outcome, however unreasonable that may seem.

[AndyStothert]

The 6 year limit to proceedings under the Sale of Goods Act isn't really a secret, and the real obstacles in the way of using this piece of legislation lie in the length of time it can take to resolve matters (with the 'goods' not being able to be used - but stuck on the drive taunting you) and the possibilty of costs escalating, and bankruptcy, if you lose. Also for quite a few owners who bought from the Brownhills version which went bust, the Sale of Goods Act seems useless - even though the true culprits - Fiat - are still trading dishonestly.

Quite a few owners have used this law to get their money back - but all say it was a lengthy and unpleasant process, with the main cost being born by the dealer, and the manufacturer. The (almost) funny bit is that these vehicles, which were deemed to be unfit for purpose, have gone straight back on Ned Swift's sales pitch, and I don't reckon there is any requirement for the dealer to tell the next mug what they have bought.

Brian is right - the legislation is weak, and these big powerful companies are insulated from it by the system.

It is rumoured that a White Paper was published last year with a view to changing the way group actions directly against big multi national companies are organised, but it seems that as yet nothing has come of it.

So what are we (the dissatisfied owners) left with? A constant dripping tap, which will end up undermining Fiat's already bad reputation?

Who knows but we now know that the hastily arranged an infamous 'kit of parts' to modify the gearboxes weren't on the agenda until owners all over Europe really started kicking up a fuss.

All we have to do is stop anyone buying a Fiat based motorhome. Any ideas? If you come up with any the get on with it whilst we enjoy the next few weeks in places like Grimsby and Cleethorpes.

 

 

[Guest peter]

Andy iscertanly right in saying that dealers are keeping this problem a secret. I was speaking to a guy at West Runton site today with a Swift Bolero bought new a couple of weeks ago from a dealer near Wellingborough. He was totally unaware that his juddering van was one of many. I told him to register the complaint and pointed him in the direction of this forum.

[Derek Uzzell]

Melvin

 

A clutch-assembly will normally be considered a wear-and-tear item where vehicle warranties are concerned and, unless there is clear evidence of a manufacturing defect or mechanical malfunction, a failed clutch will not be repaired free of charge.

 

Of course, until a failed clutch-assembly can be inspected, it's impossible to say with certainty what may have contributed to that failure, but the rule of thumb is that, if there are any signs of overheating, then it's held to be the driver's 'fault' and he/she will have to pay for the repair.

 

It's possible that a vehicle manufacturer might be persuaded to cough up the full cost of a clutch replacement if the failure occurred very early in a new vehicle's life (as I believe happened with Yeti's motorhome), but very unlikely once 12 months have passed.

 

Unfortunately, 'cooked' clutches are a predictable consequence of high bottom and/or reverse gearing. For instance, it's well known that the high 1st-gear ratio used on FWD Transits makes their clutches vulnerable and, to reduce the chance of overheating, clutch-slipping under load needs to be consciously minimised.

[Brambles]

Are you guys not missing someting here?

To me it sounds like the chap has coughed up £900 to have the gearbox fix.

We all know it will not really have worked, so if this is the situation then surely the FIAT repairer will have left themselves wide open to a claim through the courts as they charged for a repair which has not cured the problem.

Don't they have to make good the repair (stop the judder and burning clutches) or refund?

 

[kontiki]

The more I read this thread & other related ones the more I am glad I didn't buy a Fiat based vehicle, for me it will take quite a few years seeing how any new base vehicle performs before I would consider Fiat again. The people I feel sorry for are the people who have paid out their hard earned money for something that isn't fit for purpose.

 

While we were touring Europe I spoke to many motorhome owners of various nationalities about their new Fiat's & I would say about 40 to 50% of them seemed to have reversing problems to some extent. One German guy told me he never reverses unless absolutley neccessary 8-) For now I will consider myself to be a reasonably happy Renault owner :-D

[spospe]

Just curious really, but has anyone had difficulty selling an x250 vehicle due to the reverse judder problem?

 

Alternatively, has anyone had to reduce the asking price when selling, due to the buyer demanding a discount in order to compensate for the judder?

 

[Melvin]

It looks like Fiat have well and truly stitched us up, I should imagine their legal teams have go over the warranties with a fine tooth comb prior to puting the X250 on the market.

 

 

[colin]

There are a couple of issues, as derek says clutchs (and brake pads) are not normaly covered by warrenty, but it may be that excessive clutch wear and subsequent failure might have been due to attempts at minimising judder and following Fiats instructions to keep revs high we don't know.

On the issue of warenties it's my opinion(and I'm no expert) that the 'manufacterers warenty' i.e. Fiat's is an addition to your rights under sale of goods act, and they do not superseed any legal right, so although dealer will refer you to Fiat that is their perogative and the contract between dealer and Fiat and or convertor is not the concern of customer, IMO judder should first be reported to Dealer and they are ultimately responsable for getting it fixed even if they do just point you in direction of Fiat.

As to how well any of this would stand up in a court, well my advise would be 'expect the unexpected', having been involved in several court cases I can assure you that there is nothing fair or sensible about the court system, you may have what you think is a cut and dried case only to lose, or think 'this case will never be won' and come out on top, it all depends on who is the most convincing.

[Stuwsmith]

Just seen the back cover of April MMM. It's an advert from Autosleepers showing a nice picture of a new Peugot based Symbol motorhome against a background of sea and "the white cliffs of Dover" It extolls the virtues of this motorhome as a "Symbol of quality" "another Symbol of Great British Engineering and Ingenuity". It also refers to quality, style and success, and suggests that this great British craftmanship is available at a bargain price whilst stocks last.

Now call me old fashioned if you like, but this quality craftmanship seems to be based on a considerable amount of questionable Italian engineering and ingenuity and is therefore open to question.

What really gets my goat is that this advert has the effrontery to equate the engineering, style and success of the Sevel Peugot to a Supermarine Spitfire, also depicted on the advert!

[RoyH]

But then Stuwsmith you have to take into account that Autosleepers is no longer British as it is now part of SEA motohome group which is based....... guess where.... ITALY. See:-

 

http://www.seauk.co.uk/aboutus.htm

[Usinmyknaus]

Stuwsmith - 2009-05-26 7:59 PM

Just seen the back cover of April MMM. It's an advert from Autosleepers showing a nice picture of a new Peugot based Symbol motorhome against a background of sea and "the white cliffs of Dover" It extolls the virtues of this motorhome as a "Symbol of quality" "another Symbol of Great British Engineering and Ingenuity". It also refers to quality, style and success, and suggests that this great British craftmanship is available at a bargain price whilst stocks last.

Now call me old fashioned if you like, but this quality craftmanship seems to be based on a considerable amount of questionable Italian engineering and ingenuity and is therefore open to question.

What really gets my goat is that this advert has the effrontery to equate the engineering, style and success of the Sevel Peugot to a Supermarine Spitfire, also depicted on the advert!

Still, when the Spitfire was designed, no thought whatsoever was given to the need for it to be able to reverse up a hill, onto levelling ramps, or on a wet grass airfield, so from that point of view............Bob ;-)

[Guest Videomaster]

To be lazy and avoid reading all the terffic input in this thread, has anyone had problems with the 160 3 litre engine. Personally I haven't noticed any problem but not had to test on a really steep hill to be truthful. Just interested in others experience of the 3L engine

[PSHORT]

Videomaster - 2009-05-27 8:36 AM

 

To be lazy and avoid reading all the terffic input in this thread, has anyone had problems with the 160 3 litre engine. Personally I haven't noticed any problem but not had to test on a really steep hill to be truthful. Just interested in others experience of the 3L engine

 

I have a 3L panel van conversion(Morello) and suffer from judder when reversing on the flat. Not had the bottle to reverse up a steep hill. also had a smoking clutch when 3 point turning.

Today I have had my call from FIAT to arrange a 'fix' but they could not specify what they intended to do. I have to say I am in two minds whether to risk the 'fix' and some of its possible 'side effects' or carry on as I am just avoiding 3 point turns and challenging reversing.

I am just coming up to 2years since purchase- oh dear what to do

[Rayjsj]

PSHORT - 2009-05-27 11:04 AM

 

Videomaster - 2009-05-27 8:36 AM

 

 

 

I have a 3L panel van conversion(Morello) and suffer from judder when reversing on the flat. Not had the bottle to reverse up a steep hill. also had a smoking clutch when 3 point turning.

Today I have had my call from FIAT to arrange a 'fix' but they could not specify what they intended to do. I have to say I am in two minds whether to risk the 'fix' and some of its possible 'side effects' or carry on as I am just avoiding 3 point turns and challenging reversing.

I am just coming up to 2years since purchase- oh dear what to do

 

This just proves that it's not only large bodied coachbuilt's that suffer this problem (as Most Dealers,who admit there is any problem at all, are STILL saying....through their teeth ??) ANY vehicle that can't manage a three point turn or reverse up a moderate hill is clearly 'Not fit for purpose' (bubble cars excluded). Why are converters STILL favouring them, (not bubble cars, you fool !) Sevel 'Motorhome purpose built' 2006+ Vehicles.

Fiat (Sevel) just seem to have a problem designing and making reliable gearboxes (and clutches now) that last the life of the vehicle, going right back to the 'bash your knuckles on the dashboard' sloppy pudding Talbots and 'water draining directly into the gearbox' Boxers & Ducato's right on to the 'Bolt on an almost unlubricated 5th gear in a seperate box' on Boxer & Ducato......they finally got it almost right (apart from draughty cab doors) then promptly changed it for this latest version ( return to Go, do NOT collect £200) So, I ask again WHY do Converters favour them so MUCH ??

Converters saving on base vehicle is costing their customers a fortune ( and will do for years to come). :-( :-(

[yeti]

PSHORT - 2009-05-27 11:04 AM

 

Videomaster - 2009-05-27 8:36 AM

 

To be lazy and avoid reading all the terffic input in this thread, has anyone had problems with the 160 3 litre engine. Personally I haven't noticed any problem but not had to test on a really steep hill to be truthful. Just interested in others experience of the 3L engine

 

I have a 3L panel van conversion(Morello) and suffer from judder when reversing on the flat. Not had the bottle to reverse up a steep hill. also had a smoking clutch when 3 point turning.

Today I have had my call from FIAT to arrange a 'fix' but they could not specify what they intended to do. I have to say I am in two minds whether to risk the 'fix' and some of its possible 'side effects' or carry on as I am just avoiding 3 point turns and challenging reversing.

I am just coming up to 2years since purchase- oh dear what to do

 

Don't wimp out, I have a 3l 6-speed Autotrail and it juddered and cooked the clutch after 200 miles reversing on to a pitch. It appears that the 'brave boys' at Fiat are now denying any problems with the 3l models. I can vouch for the opposite and my vehicle has all the faults of the other models. Don't delay do it now you have the 6 repair arrangement and the fact the fault was reprted in the gurantee period. Do read the other posts you will learn a lot!!

It wil be a cold day in hell before I buy another Fiat of any type!!! >:-)

[Guest Videomaster]

I did report the faults and have a Fiat letter with a number etc. Can't say though that I have the problem, I wanted to register it in case Fiat do repair. When you come to sell, it will be one of 'those' questions.

 

It will be intersting when anyone comes to sell a Fiat based vehicle. I had a Swift with the faulty sealing compound and when I sold it, that was the first question I was asked...."has the sealant been repalced?" Fortunately I had.

[Melvin]

The modified transmission carried out to my X250 is now leaking oil onto my drive.

[bobalobs]

Where is everybody? 24 hours and no post. Is it the end of the world? Is Andy away?!!For all of you who have bought Ducatos and any prospective customer (yes really) we need to keep the pressure on .

We ordered a new Ducato based van conversion for delivery last year for delivery this month but have refused to confirm the final spec because of the present fiasco. The converter has agreed to put the order back a year to see if Fiat can get Their act together and I hope they will in this shrinking vehicle market but I am not a betting man.

We need a long wheelbase Ducato and in an ideal "fit for purpose world" would probably have bought a2.3litre which is similar in output to our current 2.8Jtd with which we have been more than happy. We now hear that is no longer being made and current owners are at best being offered a spur gear modification with a pretty luke warm response from the customer.

So is the long wheelbase now only available with the 3litre and if so with what gearbox?It is clear from the comments of Paul Short and others that there is a problem that needs resolving and not with a cobbled "spur gearbox"but is anyone at Fiat prepared to grasp the nettle rather than worry about the financial limits placed onthem by the formula 1 authorities?

 

[spospe]

Out of interest, you all might like to read this Q&A from the Autosleeper Owners website:

 

"Q25 What is the current situation with the much reported problem with reversing on the X250 Peugeots?

A25 Peugeot are operating a warranty change to the reverse gearing for all customers and is already being installed on the new models during production."

 

Website at: http://www.asoc.fsnet.co.uk/ (Stop Press section, dated 15 May 2009)

 

 

[mike 202]

Goood news that A/S owners club have made a statement and I believe that A/S are interested in the support the club gives to owners. Autosleepers, although part of Sea group, do give us a choice of base vehicles and should be applauded for that.

 

Fiat well ???????

[mike 202]

Goood news that A/S owners club have made a statement and I believe that A/S are interested in the support the club gives to owners. Autosleepers, although part of Sea group, do give us a choice of base vehicles and should be applauded for that.

 

Fiat well ???????

[mike 202]

Goood news that A/S owners club have made a statement and I believe that A/S are interested in the support the club gives to owners. Autosleepers, although part of Sea group, do give us a choice of base vehicles and should be applauded for that.

 

Fiat well ???????