Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[colin]

All gone a bit quiet, all the x250 owners got so fed up with Fiat et. al. that you've gone off on a grump?

[bobalobs]

I have not gone to sleep but am waiting in anticipation to see what is done and the effect when P.shorts 3 litre goes in on recall any day now and what the very helpful "Euroserve" finds when he dismantles his box of worms!!The new "Mercedes thread" that is now developing does show that people are looking elsewhere even if the initial outlay is greater.They will sound cheap once the anticipated inflation hits us!

[Melvin]

Well Folks,

 

The last I have heard from Fiat, they are willing to retest my van at the dealers who originally carryout the failed transmission modifications, but here is the catch.

 

They need the van for the day, they cannot give a precise time when the Fiat's technician will turn up and they will only test the van with the dealership, Fiat will not deal with the public direct ?.

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

Melvin - 2009-06-23 9:24 AM

 

Well Folks,

 

The last I have heard from Fiat, they are willing to retest my van at the dealers who originally carryout the failed transmission modifications, but here is the catch.

 

They need the van for the day, they cannot give a precise time when the Fiat's technician will turn up and they will only test the van with the dealership, Fiat will not deal with the public direct ?.

 

 

Could you arrange to arrive as late in the morning as you can and take another vehicle and wait discreetly until you see some activity with your van? Then just magically appear and speak with them?

 

As long as you are very friendly (outwardly at least) and smile a lot you might just get away with it if you only disagree with either their 'testing' methods or their conclusions?

 

I know it may be a day wasted but perhaps the stakes are high enough to justify this?

 

PS - Take a good book!

[Fiat UK]

Re: Ducato reversing vibration

 

The current Ducato was designed primarily as the base vehicle for Motorhome conversions and with this in mind the

“born to be a Motorhome “ theme emerged.

 

In the development stages we took into consideration all the expectations of your customers and the requirements of Motorhome manufacturers resulting in the final product being well received by owners, converters and the press.

 

Fiat dedicated Motorhome quality tracking has indicated that some customers have reported they are experiencing an uncomfortable level of vibration when reversing their Motorhomes (described as juddering). This issue concerns a limited number of vehicles which use the 130 Multijet powertrain under specific conditions of use i.e. when reversing on steep

inclines and is also dependant on the overall weight bias of the vehicle.

 

Fiat has taken this concern very seriously and following extensive investigations into the cause, confirms that no

single element is responsible but the primary cause is linked to the configuration of the Motorhome , engine, gearbox and clutch mountings.

 

This issue is confined to Motorhomes equipped with the 130 Multijet engine and affects only a

limited number of vehicles.

 

In case of contact from a customer having any doubt or request of performance improvement of the reverse gear , we kindly ask you to invite such customer to contact directly a Fiat dealer or our dedicated Motorhome call centre on 00800 3428 1111 or alternatively +39 0244412160 to obtain more information and if required to make an appointment with a Fiat Professional dealer.

 

The dealer will analyse the vehicle in conjunction with our technical department and apply when needed the necessary solution - now available - to improve the drivability in reverse.

 

Even if there is no technical evidence of such issue on the 100 Multijet and 160 Multijet power engines, the Fiat network and customer care department is also available for any other information regarding a Motorhome based on a Fiat Ducato chassis .

 

[Guest Tracker]

Good Morning Mr Fiat - so you are still looking - just not listening it seems?

 

We would of course expect you to try and justify your actions if you are to keep both your job and the cost of this fiasco within acceptable (to Fiat) bounds regardless of the emotional and financial stress and heartache Fiat are causing it's long suffering customers.

 

FIAT customer care is legendary - 'Fix It Again Tomorrow' always used to be the maxim - nothing, it seems, changes?

 

But how do you justify the action above where the owner (remember him - he's the one that spent all that money on your product) is being excluded from the investigations and rectification process?

 

You make no comment on that issue so we can only assume that the exclusion of the owner from any investigations and from knowing exactly what any modifications entail is quite deliberate.

 

Let me ask - who would know better the specific issues of any vehicle's problems - the regular driver of a vehicle - or someone who drives it just the once on a 'test' drive?

 

I would love to have enough confidence to buy an X250 based van - but not on your Nelly at the moment.

 

Meanwhile I will continue to attend shows and dealers and inform anyone that I see looking at an X250 based Motorhome to be very wary of the claims that both dealer and Fiat make that this is not a real problem. Drive before you pay - and reverse uphill in your test drives.

 

Caveat emptor.

[Guest Videomaster]

Interesting communication from Fiat that I am sure will draw lots of comments.

 

It is clear from the forum that 130 vehicles are affected, but not so clear on the other models. Are others affected?

 

Yes I guess test driving is the acid test. Aaprt from the test drive, can anyone pick apart the Fiat commuincation into it's sections by way of a response?

[aljen]

Well Mr Fiat

 

All i can say to your knowledgable response in respect to the problems encountered by many,if not into a few thousands i believe, going by the no's airing their grievances on this forum, i think you have a cheek saying it is only a limited number and not only with the 130 multijet either as i presume you will know, as you monitor the forum regularly. This problem has been around for over 2 years now, you are probably hoping all will be out of warranty soon, so it will become the problem with second hand users too. I suspect that all your dealers are under your instruction to, when asked about the problem to say that all old stock does not have a problem and that they have been checked and show no signs of gearing problems, once sold it becomes a warranty problem if the vehicle is over 2 years old, no problem for you, its sold, we are the mugs who will have to pay extortionate garage rates to have the gearbox, clutch sorted, by then maybe you will have resolved the problem and a fix maybe available. I cannot understand your head in the sand attitude regarding this issue, where you have alientated all current and potential owners, not only in this country as i have friends abroad who have the same problem and they are suffering the same attitude.

It would help if Fiat would just come clean and admit there is a profound problem with the clutch and gearbox on the 130 and 160 multijet motors and no amount of faffing about will cure your reputation as evidenced from this forum

Will you offer any support to any second hand vehicles that have run out of warranty and not been reported to your service dept??? i very much doubt it as all Fiat dealers are now telling the same blatent lies as instructed by yourselves.

Do yourselves a big favour and listen to your customers who spend their hard earned cash buying your products, its as good as any testing you may have carried out in the first place, only better judged in proper conditions, ie, using the vehicles

[Itexuk]

Fiat has taken this concern very seriously and following extensive investigations into the cause, confirms that no

single element is responsible but the primary cause is linked to the configuration of the Motorhome , engine, gearbox and clutch mountings.

 

Dear Fiat,

The single element at fault is the gearbox with a toooooo high reverse gear. Yes, by altering the engine mounts and other mods might help but we all know and that includes you Mr Fiat that the reverse gear is the problem.

 

 

[Melvin]

In a letter dated the 01/06/09 Fiat professional ' Furthermore in recognition of your recent experience with the transmission leak and the numerous visits to a Fiat dealership, I would like to offer £100 in Fiat vouchers, umm I am still waiting ? as I am still slipping my clutch to reverse my van I could put it towards my next clutch.

[Bazza454]

Fiat UK - 2009-06-23 12:25 PM Re: Ducato reversing vibration The current Ducato was designed primarily as the base vehicle for Motorhome conversions and with this in mind the “born to be a Motorhome “ theme emerged. In the development stages we took into consideration all the expectations of your customers and the requirements of Motorhome manufacturers resulting in the final product being well received by owners, converters and the press. Fiat dedicated Motorhome quality tracking has indicated that some customers have reported they are experiencing an uncomfortable level of vibration when reversing their Motorhomes (described as juddering). This issue concerns a limited number of vehicles which use the 130 Multijet powertrain under specific conditions of use i.e. when reversing on steep inclines and is also dependant on the overall weight bias of the vehicle. Fiat has taken this concern very seriously and following extensive investigations into the cause, confirms that no single element is responsible but the primary cause is linked to the configuration of the Motorhome , engine, gearbox and clutch mountings. This issue is confined to Motorhomes equipped with the 130 Multijet engine and affects only a limited number of vehicles. In case of contact from a customer having any doubt or request of performance improvement of the reverse gear , we kindly ask you to invite such customer to contact directly a Fiat dealer or our dedicated Motorhome call centre on 00800 3428 1111 or alternatively +39 0244412160 to obtain more information and if required to make an appointment with a Fiat Professional dealer. The dealer will analyse the vehicle in conjunction with our technical department and apply when needed the necessary solution - now available - to improve the drivability in reverse. Even if there is no technical evidence of such issue on the 100 Multijet and 160 Multijet power engines, the Fiat network and customer care department is also available for any other information regarding a Motorhome based on a Fiat Ducato chassis .

What a disgraceful, condescending post this is from Fiat UK.

What on earth are they thinking posting a memo on a public forum that is clearly designed to be addressed to dealers. Could they not have taken the time and effort to post a seperate memo outlining, with honesty, the current issues and what they are aiming to do to improve this dreadful situation direct to their long suffering customers on this forum.

Part of their ongoing investment in the UK should include the recruitment of a new PR Manager, clearly the present incumbent has lost the plot where honesty, integrity and customer service is concerned.

[Melvin]

To be honest I thing the damage has already been done, Fiat customer care has done more damage to Fiat reputation than the actual transmission problem themselves.

 

At one stage I was considering unloading this van in favour of a comfortmatic, however, Fiat customer care's attitude, killed that idea dead. My next van will not be a Fiat.

 

I recently took my Toyota Aygo back to the dealers, it has a slight grinding noise when braking after standing for 2 to 3 days. They told me I would need a courtesy car, when I picked my Toyota up they had replaced the front disc and pads, and clean the car inside and out, apparently it is Toyota policy. What a difference, it fills you with confidence.

 

My advice to Fiat customer care, 'you need a bigger bucket of sand to hide your head in', and yes if asked I shall steer any new potential victims clear of Fiat products.

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyStothert]

We have just returned home for a few days to chop the hedges etc. and found a letter from both Fiat and the SMMT. Fiat UK have obviously been told to fob us all off at whatever cost in terms of customer relations and the SMMT think Fiat have done all they can. I think I agree with this last opinion and that the gearbox mods are as good as we are going to get. The problem is that they are not good enough for either our peace of mind or to encourage future buyers that our vehicles are a good buy on the second hand market.

I have asked Fiat (again) to consider extending the warranties (on the transmission) on all these vehicles but they refuse point-blank to discuss this course of action.

The behaviour and attitude of the Customer Relations team at Fiat UK has been totally without integrity from the very beginning of this fiasco and hopefully Fiat's reputation will have been damaged by this. I don't think a company which treats its customers like this is fit to supply even the best vehicle, and will never buy another product from this company. It is now as much about the company as the vehicle itself. We have owned many Fiats, and have a much loved 1972 Fiat 500 in our garage, but to be truthful, I now want rid of even that.

 

I have also today received an email from the owners of a 3 litre 160 model which is still in warranty and whose clutch cooked whilst reversing up a hill and Fiat are expecting him to foot the £1100 bill. The van has done 2300 miles. This after an appeal to to both the warranty and customer relations departments.

Scandalous.

 

On a more positive note after a month of driving in some hilly places I can confirm that the gearbox modifcations carried out by Fiat (after telling me that there was nothing wrong with it for 2 years) have improved its reversing abilities quite markedly. It is still not normal or acceptable in a new vehicle, but much better. I would advise anyone about to have the mods done to hold out for the reverse gear modification as Fiat, in a bid to save money, have now reverted to trying to get away with just doing engine mountings. These may well mask the initial juddering but cannot possibly help preserve the clutch or gearbox from damage.

[AliB]

Tracker - 2009-06-23 1:01 PM

 

 

Drive before you pay - and reverse uphill in your test drives.

 

Caveat emptor.

 

I did that and the vehicle appeared fine. However, there was only myself and the salesman on board.

On our first trip away, loaded with the family, fuel and water tank we had to reverse on a narrow road in Wales. Juddering was experienced. The van was not overloaded beyond its 4005 Kg but with the extra weight the gearing was too high to cope. Remove the family, fuel etc and it drives fine.

 

I am waiting for a date from Fiat for the modifications, needless to say we shall be arriving "loaded"

 

 

[bobalobs]

 

Colin did you say that it" all gone a bit quiet"?!! I bet Fiat wish it had!Their latest statement says no more than their post a couple of months ago.Of concern to me is the damage limitation policy they are conducting in trying to limit any design defect to the 2.3 litre 6 speed whilst there are 3 litre owners clearly very unhappy.A clutch going after a couple of thousand miles and warranty claim rejected as Andy relates. Doubtless the "fair wear and tear" or "driver error"will have been argued by Fiat.No wonder an increasing number of people are not happy and spreading the word.

As i currently have a 3 litre order on hold I would like to know how many people other than PShort are awaiting remedial work on 3litresmanual and of those that have been repaired what was done and are they satisfied?

[Corky 8]

So no change from the Fiat UK camp then, I have been contacted by Fiat some two week ago informing me My local (some 47 mile away) Fiat agent will arrange a date and time for me to take my Motorhome into them, But before I take it in I shall be asking what work s to be carried out, as it is MY Vehicle and I should be informed of any work undertaken on it , I,m not filled with confidence over this so called Modification and even less confident about Fiat,s Customer service in the Future after thier lack of commitment over the Reverse Gear Fiasco, Andy I dont see how anyone can hold out for the gearbox mod you had, and anyway it doesnt appear to have solved the problem completley, and may add things like oil leaks to the agenda,Fiat are quiet happy with us talking about the Gearbox Problem on the Forum as no Action has been taken against them No Body with any influence has come to our aid ,it is simply down to us to organise ourselves better and at least have some kind of Demonstration in Fiat Uk ,s own territory,and we should expect everyone on the forum who has a X250 with Problems to attend the Demo,That Said it will take someone with organisation skills to come to the fore and take on the worry and grief it will bring, or has anyone else a suggestion how to bring more attention to this Saga , I,d volunteer but it takes me to remember my own name.

[rowley]

Oh dear Fiat UK, have you forgotten about all those people with the problem on their 100mj. I have had so many Fiat cars and motorcaravans which have given me excellent service. And now I have a Ducato that drives superbly,----- forwards.

[colin]

Fiat UK - 2009-06-23 12:25 PM

 

This issue is confined to Motorhomes equipped with the 130 Multijet engine and affects only a

limited number of vehicles.

 

 

I have driven several of these vehicles both as motorhomes and plain white vans and my experiance is 75% are affected, there are also complaints on van forums about the judder with owners of plain white vans saying they have complained about it, have you 'binned' their complaints?

[Brian Kirby]

colin - 2009-06-19 7:19 PM Copied from Bill's 'reverse gear' thread

bill booth - 2009-06-18 9:33 PM Set off with grand kids for weekend camp,got 12 miles from home no drive,called AA got vehicle back to dealers told that a spring in the clutch broken .This part not covered by warranty vehicle 26 months old 10,000 miles on clock dealer suggested ringing customer care at Fiats,costs expected to be £800-£900 plus vat.Fiat said that this would have been covered by them if vehicle was under 2 years old must say the gearbox has been reported still waiting.Outcome of this problem Fiat would pay for the parts also 4 hours lab costs at £70 +vat I would contribute 2 hours lab cost.So I am pleased only wish they would listen in Italy

This does seem a little weaselly, even though Fiat accepted the lion's share of the cost. 

The vehicle has, if I understand correctly, already been reported to Fiat as a "judderer".  This, according to Fiat, is because the reverse gear ratio is too high (though other factors seem also to be involved) and, as that is the primary cause of the judder, the high reverse ratio/judder should have been presumed the cause of the broken clutch spring.  Either that, or a manufacturing defect with the spring that caused it to break.  In either event it is not the clutch itself that failed - which I believe is the component that is excluded from the third year's warranty - but a critical clutch component. 

The reason clutches are excluded is obvious enough: they may be subjected to high rates of wear through poor driving technique.  However, it seems quite unreasonable to apply this line of reasoning to a broken spring, the more so where a design defect affecting the transmission system has being tacitly acknowledged by the manufacturer. 

The manufacturer should surely have given his customer the benefit of the doubt, accepting the possibility that this spring failure is judder related, and pick up the whole repair bill, rather than sheltering behind an exclusion in his warranty that was primarily inserted (I think quite reasonably) to deal with quite different events. 

On the face of it, this seems to be a classic case of the manufacturer interpreting his warranty unreasonably in his own favour, rather than reasonably in his customer's interest.

[mike 202]

I agree with all that has been said that the problem is all down to Fiat, BUT and it is a big but, why are the converters still not changing to other base vehicles. The converters have had 2 years to change or at least offer alternatives.

As an example Autosleeper build on Fiat Ford and Mercedes, the basic conversion is very similar in body and inside, so if you want front lounge etc you at least have the choice of base vehicle.

I believe that the Converters and Dealers have a responsibility to their customers. If a supermarket had a supplier who was not up to the correct standard they the supplier would be ditched.

If we the customer had the full backing of dealers and converters then I believe we would be in with a fighting chance.

[Guest Tracker]

Changing base vehicles is not that easy for a converter.

 

Firstly he may well contractual responsibility to take a certain number of base vehicles per year for a number of years ahead?

 

Then there is the cost of re tooling and resizing everything to fit a different length, width, track and wheelbase base vehicle - and all in a not very buoyant market?

 

You only have to look at where various components are placed on different base vehicles - like water tanks, gas locker, batteries, heating systems etc - to appreciate the level of re-designing sometimes needed?

 

Perhaps many converters are selling enough vans to the unsuspecting to get by until both Fiat and the market improve?

 

Perhaps some converters are fooled by Fiats reasoning, if indeed reasoning is what it can be called?

 

If you were a converter what would you do - not an easy decision methinks?

[Guest peter]

Surely the combined effort of the converters and dealers could bring enough pressure on Fiat to stop messing about and get this sorted. Because if they don't they both will suffer in the long term, as we have very good memories and will not forget in a hurry all those that just sat on their hands whilst their customers were having bovine excrement heaped on them by Fiat.

So......come on you guys this problem will not disappear and you will live with the consequences for a long time to come.

[Guest peter]

Posted twice thanks to steam powered servers at Warners. :D

[Guest Tracker]

They all need immediate cashflow to stay alive and that is Fiat's saviour.

 

They can't afford any gaps in production and besides who will buy one of these wretched thing from the last of the production runs?

 

Nah - better to bury your head in the sand and tell lies.

[Melvin]

My next van will be Merc based, however if the Japanese come up with a decent powertrain we all could be tempted. I phoned Autotrail yesterday, at present untill 2010 all their van will be Fiat based ?