Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[mel wood]

Re Mike 202's comments that "Auto-Sleepers build on Fiats": as far as I am aware they do not. Certainlly nothing is listed in the 2009 Auto-Sleepers brochure which I have.

 

They do build on Peugeot which is SIMILAR but NOT THE SAME as Fiat (and has a different customer service department).

 

In November we purchased an Auto-Sleepers Symbol ES based on the Peugeot 2.2 litre 100 PS engine, after having ascertained as far as possible that the vehicle would not have engine compartment water ingress or reversing issues.

 

To date we have done over 8000 miles with no mechanical problems whatsoever.

 

However the conversion build quality and some habitation components have been major issues. (Having spoken to a number of owners of recent Auto- Sleepers Nuevos and a Warwick it seems they have all had problems with aspects of the conversion but no one mentioned problems with the Peugeot)

[ron.]

mel wood - 2009-06-24 7:39 PM

 

Re Mike 202's comments that "Auto-Sleepers build on Fiats": as far as I am aware they do not. Certainlly nothing is listed in the 2009 Auto-Sleepers brochure which I have.

 

They do build on Peugeot which is SIMILAR but NOT THE SAME as Fiat (and has a different customer service department).

 

In November we purchased an Auto-Sleepers Symbol ES based on the Peugeot 2.2 litre 100 PS engine, after having ascertained as far as possible that the vehicle would not have engine compartment water ingress or reversing issues.

 

To date we have done over 8000 miles with no mechanical problems whatsoever.

 

However the conversion build quality and some habitation components have been major issues. (Having spoken to a number of owners of recent Auto- Sleepers Nuevos and a Warwick it seems they have all had problems with aspects of the conversion but no one mentioned problems with the Peugeot)

 

Our previous Autocruise Starburst was equipped with the Peugeot 3.0L engine and it juddered badly in reverse - just like it's Fiat twin.

[kontiki]

The only way that converters will stop using Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen (basically all the same) & dealers stop selling them if people like us stop buying them. It's suprising how many owners of Fiat motorhomes I have spoke to that have said they do have some juddering but don't consider it bad enough to do anything about it. I personally would never buying a Fiat again until they have a proven track record. The more I read of this saga the happier I am that I decided to buy a Renault based van but I nearly was convinced to get a Fiat, the dealer offered to let me have a test drive before buying but why should I risk buying something that has a possible design flaw.

[mike 202]

Tracker, i agree that changing base vehicles is difficult, however Swift have launche brand new models in the last 2 years and if those were already part designed ,what about their latest models the Escape range introduced, I believe, this year.

I guess that in the end we the Public cannot rely on Fiat, Converters or Salesmen to help us. We have the Absolute power over them all because without our money they have no business. Problem is:- what %age of buyers read this forum, and how many play Ostrich and bury their heads in the sand and hope that it will not effect them or the problem will just go away.

Me I used my power, traded the Fiat after a few months and bought ford based, on my recomment my friend removed Fiat from his considerations and has just ordered a Merc based motorhome

[aljen]

Mike

I for one have read all the posts about this and i was considering changing later this year, but have been well warned that the dealers and salesmen will lie through their teeth rather than do the honest thing and admit the problem exists. We all have to decide on layouts and now we are having to consider base vehicle too, not an easy choice again so it looks like i will hold off for a few years yet, but that sounds like a few years have to pass before this current batch of problematic vehicles are about 4 years old or more. Unless Fiat extend the warranty on the clutch and gearbox, fat chance of that i believe. As i live in north scotland there is little chance of me avoiding hills and single track roads and the thought of cooking the box on some of the hills round definately puts me off buying a x250 in the near future.

 

 

[Brod]

My motorhome is due to have the engine mount mod carried out. More of that in 5 weeks. But a thought has struck me, how many of us complaining, is not about time we got together through a legal representative.

Is there a Solicitor out there among us who could advise.

To me it is obvious that talking is no good, action could be the answer.

[bobalobs]

A helpful summary/update by Andy Stothert is contained on page 61 of the July issue of the Caravan Club magazine particularly for those who are still interested in buying a Ducato.It looks as though it is going to be a long wait before they have sold the old stock with the increasing public knowledge of the gearbox saga.The buying public need a new incentive or a bit of lateral thinking in a difficult market. I read one dealer is giving away second hand park homes so how about a free Ducato with every Panda bought??

[libby]

I have a friend touring Italy, he says the tourists are staying away and their economy is poorly.

 

Michael Jackson has just died.

 

FIAT have problems with their products.

 

These three items will cause the Italian industrial financiers big problems.

 

Be aware !!

 

 

[AndyStothert]

We have been home for a week now and I've been waiting for a situation with a 3 litre model to be resolved by Fiat, hoping that it would before we cleare off again on Wednesday. It hasn't.

The vehicle in question, a 3 litre Fiat 6 speed manual, cooked the clutch at less than 3000 miles (in warranty) whilst reversing up a steep hill, and it required replacement. The cost is £1240.

The driver has never damaged a clutch in any previous vehicle, and had reported to Fiat that the juddering in his van was unacceptable at 600 miles, had the complaint acknowledged, but heard no more from Fiat.

When the clutch failed he presumed that, as this is a known fault, it would be fixed by Fiat, but no, they want the full cost from the owner.

I thought there was a mistake, as previous low mileage clutch failures on

the 3 litre vans have been rectified at Fiat's expense, so asked the owner to contact the manager at Customer Relations to get this decision reversed.

I'm told that John Spencer, the manager in question, has informed the owner that Fiat require paying the full amount.

This seems a very weird and unwelcome development, as it can only cause yet more bad feeling for the way Fiat UK have handled this defect. The owner has asked for all this in writing, and the specific reasons for Fiat's refusal to pay for the clutch replacement, but thus far this has not been forthcoming.

I have asked the owner concerned to get familar with these forums and explain what Fiat have to say if he gets anything in writing, and hopefully he will do so.

It seems that Fiat have adopted a seige mentality, and are back to the previous stance of denying everything, and telling everybody everything is perfect, when we and they know it isn't.

This does not bode well for the future and any consequent component failures as a result of the gearing issues.

Has anyone ever heard of a fiasco like this before, and how it resolved itself?

[Rough]

Don't get too hopeful, the modifications might be helping a little but are not working to any great extent.

[yeti]

I've heard Elvis is comingto England before Fiat do anything!!!

[libby]

The American Gentleman who has just been jailed for 150 years for mis-spending his pocket money was quite likely one of the many FIAT finaciers, so if he has empty pockets what hope id there for FIAT ?

[bobalobs]

If the 3 litre clutch matter is a one off exception and bearing the mileage involved it must be good public relations to meet the claim if only on an ex gratia basis.Their stance makes me think there are going to be in time more claims of a similar nature and settlement of this claim will set a precedent for the future.

Andy you ask of any similar fiasco and how it was resolved.Remember rust and the Lancia Beta?! Another Italian fiasco which ended with Lancia withdrawing from the UK market.

I am of the view that Fiat Europe regard the British as a load of moaners of minimal clout and it is only when the rest of the the European owners show their muscle that we will see some sensible action from Fiat.

Anyone know the size of the stockpile of lefthand drive 2.3litre 6 speed Ducato?

[breakaleg]

yeti - 2009-06-29 6:45 PM

 

I've heard Elvis is comingto England before Fiat do anything!!!

 

That's good news Yeti, if you google the NIA birmingham, you will see that Elvis is on before the end of the year. (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol)

[mike 202]

Although I do not now own one of these defective vehicles, it cost me thousands to change, I am still p*ssed off with Fiat to the extent that I am willing to make a donation to any method that gets Fiat to repair these defective vehicles. Be that advertisements, legal or even for a rally around the Fiat HQ.

Will never buy Fiat myself, and thank all forums especially this one for allowing us to publicise the situation

[kedavi]

I wrote a detailed letter of complaint about the Fiat fiasco to the SMMT in May. This afternoon I had a phone call from someone there who started with an apology for the delay in replying. He explained he was working through a backlog of letters - all on the same subject. I comfirmed no change in the circumstances of my complaint, which are basically that Fiat wrote to say they would be in touch in March and to date I am still waiting to hear from them. I reiterated my concerns that Fiat's proposed fix was inadequate according to reports on the forums from others who have had it carried out. He said my complaint would be forwarded for "arbitration". When I enquired what that meant he said that they would seek Fiat's response to my letter and let me know if they were happy that Fiat were progressing the issue.

 

I know Andy and others have said this before, but if you haven't done so yet, please log your complaint with the SMMT. It seems from what the SMMT bloke said about his backlog of letters that many of us have complained already. The more of us that do complain, the more likely the issue will be taken seriously. And the less likely it is that Fiat will be able to write this off as a few isolated incidents from awkward and / or dishonest customers. In isolation, any single letter will have no impact but if the letters keep coming in all telling the same story then I would like to think someone will sit up and take notice.

 

The SMMT are however a body primarily representing the interests of Fiat and Fiat contribute to their funding. The clue is in the name! I'm not holding out much hope that they have any teeth or can force Fiat to take any particular route. From the responses from the SMMT published on here it seems that if Fiat tell them everything is fine and the fix is successful, then that is good enough for the SMMT. Building and maintaining sufficient mometum from enough complaints so that this issue does not fade away can only help.

 

Please, write to the SMMT via

 

http://www.smmt.co.uk/consumeraffairs/ca_enquiry.cfm?catid=913&sid=136

 

or

 

SMMT, Forbes House, Halkin Street, London, SW1X 7DS

 

 

[kedavi]

Further update from my last post:It turns out the bloke who rang me was from "Motor Codes Limited" which appears to be some offshoot or affiliate of the SMMT. I won't hold my breath in expectation of any positive outcome or action against Fiat. His e-mail is reproduced in full below:Re: Your vehicle Reg No XXXXXXX Model Ducato X250Thank you for your letter regarding your dispute with Fiat Group Automobiles UK Limited.I am sorry to learn of the problems that you have experienced with your vehicle. Having reviewed your correspondence I believe that your case requires further investigation and have therefore referred your case to Conciliation under the terms of the Motor Industry Code of Practice for New Cars.I have forwarded a copy of your letter to Fiat Group Automobiles UK Limited who will conduct an investigation into your case and provide us with a progress report or conclusion within 10 working days. It is quite normal not to receive any further communication from the Codes Advisory and Conciliation Service during this period, however you may be contacted by the manufacturer.As soon as I have been advised by Fiat Group Automobiles UK Limited of the outcome of their investigation into your complaint I will conduct a review of your case and when satisfied with the outcome I will write again.Further information about the Code Advisory and Conciliation Service and the Motor Industry Code of Practice for New Cars is available from our website www.motorindustrycodes.co.uk.Yours sincerely *******Web: http://www.motorindustrycodes.co.ukBlog: http://blog.motorindustrycodes.co.uk/

 

(contact details removed by the Moderator)

 

[Wellsgofar]

Hi All,

We were due to have mods to engine mounts, carried out on 22/06/09, at our local Fiat dealership in Blackburn, but guess what, no parts, what a fiasco.I tow a small car on a car transporter and the 130 multijet definitely shakes and judders in reverse, its like walking on a bed of nail trying not to cause a problem with the vehicle. I will say that the staff at Blackburn have been most helpfull and I respect them for that, but still no date or parts. It's not suprising owners are getting annoyed with Fiat, ( and that's putting it politely ). Will keep you posted of outcome.

Alan & June

[kedavi]

Well, further to my two previous posts above, my case has now been through "concilliation" and as predicted, the SMMT and their offshoots are entirely spineless. In essence, Fiat say they are happy and so everything in the garden is rosy. I feel reassured now. Here is their response:

 

Re: Your vehicle

Reg No: XXXX XXX Model: Ducato X250

 

I have now received a response from Fiat.

 

Fiat have advised that so far these modifications have been successful on a number of vehicles and they are continuing to work with all of their customers regarding this concern. As this concern is not present on all Fiat Ducato’s and they have many happy customers, Fiat are focusing their efforts on supporting their customers who have advised us of a concern.

 

Fiat add that they are pleased with the modifications that are being carried out and are confident that their customers will be satisfied, and subsequently a nominated dealership will complete the modifications on your vehicle (if you so wish) once the initial contact has taken place by Fiat in Italy.

 

I am satisfied with Fiats response, and believe that they are not in breach of the Code. They also add that If you would like to discuss any further concerns, please contact them on the free phone number 00800 3428 0000.

 

I am sorry if this is not the outcome that you sought.

 

Yours sincerely

 

XXXXXXXXXXXX (no - these aren't kisses - the moderator removed the contact details from my previous post)!)

 

Motor Codes Officer

Motor Codes Limited

Tel: 0800 xxx xxx

 

Web: http://www.motorindustrycodes.co.uk

Blog: http://blog.motorindustrycodes.co.uk/

 

So there you are! If your vehicle is affected I still suggest it is worthwhile flagging your case with the SMMT as I think the only thing that will change this farce is weight of numbers.

 

And if you are reading this Mr Fiat, please be absolutely assured that I will never ever buy another Fiat, Peugeot, Citroen, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Ferrari or any vehicle of any type your company become involved with. It will not happen!

 

[libby]

As a non FIAT user or owner and reading between the lines my only opinion of this fiasco is to dismiss FIAT entirely from any connection with any Motorcaravan in the future new or second hand.

 

It seems obvious that the FIAT system treats everyone as idiots.

 

All the various bodies that support the motor industry are useless, they are all bound to duping the public as much as possible in order to justify their own jobs

[PSHORT]

Now here is an interesting development, sorry non-development.

Had my expected call from the garage to say the spare parts to fix my judder were now in and to make an appointment. Conversation with very helpful guy went as follows;

Me; 'Good, have you done any of these before"

Garage; "Oh yes and they have been successful"

Me; "Good, will you replace the reverse gear"

Garage; "No not at this stage just engine mounts and a tie rod"

Me: " Not good enough I want a new reverse gear as you are difficult to get to and want it all done together . Also how many 3litre vans have you sorted"

Garage:" None

Me:" Mine is a 3 lite"

Garage:"Oh Fiat have told us its a 2.3litre, I will get back to you"

 

Next day I get a call from Fiat(Italy I think) telling me they have no problems with the 3litre and therefore they do not want to see the van. I explain I get juddering in reverse and had a smoking clutch and that it goes in for service on Monday albeit at a different garage to the one above. The call ends with Fiat saying get them to re-test itduring the service.

I think until legal action this is as far as I get

 

[Guest peter]

There's a link here that might help to explain the juddering on grass. Read the bit on the stability control system.

http://www.italiaspeed.com/new_models/2006/fiat/ducato/companion.html

[diydoolittle]

Judderers on motorhomefacts have started a poll on getting people together to try and launch a group action against Fiat. If anyone here is interested here is the link.

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=68226

[Derek Uzzell]

This doesn't relate to the juddering thing, but it may be worth mentioning in this thread.

 

When I was in France recently I noticed a current model Fiat-based motorhome parked seemingly with its headlamps on. Looking more closely, I could see that, in fact, the early-morning sunlight was striking the vehicle's headlight units and being reflected from water droplets covering the complete underside of both headlight outer 'covers'. I remembered that headlight condensation problems with X250 vehicles had been mentioned before on this forum, but I'd never realised they could be that serious.

[colin]

That was nick (euroserv) complaining about steamed up headlights, I'm not sure, but is it a MOT fail?