Big Momma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I have been following this Thread with interest (being a FIAT Ducato owner, albeit with a model that pre-dates the current problems) but having not got any mechanical or Technical knowledge have not had any compulsion to get involved, I would be lost and unable to add anything constructive to the discussions. However, I have seen the large number of individuals that do contribute to this Thread that have had or indeed still got the problem that have approached their local dealer, then written to FIAT and various Motoring Standards Agencies. It appears to me that, with a few minor exceptions, no-one is getting any nearer to a satisfactory response or solution. Have you considered all getting together and highlighting this problem with UK MEP's and make it a matter of National Political interest. If this was to be addressed on a much larger European scale then surely the Italian Government would want to get involved. Whilst there is no guarantees that they would do anything about it, they may, even behind internal closed doors, be able to bring suficient internal pressure on FIAT to do something about it as it would create a National Embarassment. Just a thought from an interested onlooker ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Hi Everyone. My van is now booked in again for a further investigation into the judder/slipping clutch/wrong ratio problem, to go on Monday next at 0900. It is a Peugeot based Autocruise Stargazer 58 plate and has already had replacement gearbox bits and heavy duty clutch fitted, but there is only a marginal improvement. The case file is still open and they now want to run further tests and reinspect the problem. I have agreed to take the technician for a test run to nearest hill, where previous test was demonstrated, not a particularly steep hill, and then the vehicle will be put up on ramps again for thorough recheck. Results will be sent to Customer services, and await their analysis. Local garage maintains that I am only the second case they have dealt with, and are co-operating willingly to diagnose and investigate. They are well aware of the forum comments re judder etc but admit scepticism as to the size of the problem. I await the outcome, and will update when anything to report. tonyg3nwl Model is 6 speed 2.2ltr job tony g3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthmover Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Hi Rupert123, Coming from darkest Wales have you considered approaching the Welsh TV consumer affairs programme, The Ferret, when I have watched it, it seemed a lot more aggressive in it,s investigations. My local Radio station often boasts about how it's saved some pensioner or other £5, off their gas bill, but baulked at the idea of saving Motor homers anything up to £5,000 or £6,000 . cheers Em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 In my travels I make a point of asking Fiat/Peugeot X250 owners whether they have any reversing problems. There are still many buyers who are not aware of the problem. One chap I met in Scotland had purchased his Autocruise 2.2l, 6-speed only 4 weeks previously. When I asked whether he had any reversing problems he said he believed that the reverse gear seemed to be too high. This was without any prompting from me. He said that he initialy kept stalling the engine when reversing on grass and he thought it was his driving technique. He had previously worked in the construction industry and had driven many different types of vehicle. It would appear that a large proportion of buyers do little, if any, research before they spend a vast quantity of money on a motorhome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 colin weston - 2009-07-13 7:43 PM It would appear that a large proportion of buyers do little, if any, research before they spend a vast quantity of money on a motorhome. It might be that these buyers have read the glowing reports in mags, seen the layout they want, then test driven van. What more would you normaly expect them to do? I admit to registering on this forum to find out views about various convertors but it was only by chance that andy's first post just a few weeks before NEC stopped me buying, if I wasn't that interested in internet then I proboly would have brought a Twin without knowing, but after reading all the good write ups Fiat et. al. get, why wouldn't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Earthmover - 2009-07-13 6:59 PM Hi Rupert123, Coming from darkest Wales have you considered approaching the Welsh TV consumer affairs programme, The Ferret, when I have watched it, it seemed a lot more aggressive in it,s investigations. My local Radio station often boasts about how it's saved some pensioner or other £5, off their gas bill, but baulked at the idea of saving Motor homers anything up to £5,000 or £6,000 . cheers Em. You seem to misunderstand me Em. I have no problems so do not need to complain to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Yes when I bought my X250(long before the brown stuff hit the fan) I could have had the same layout on a Renault for very little more money but had to have the FIAT having read so many glowing reports in the mags thanks for nout press and testers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksebruce Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 As I said earlier had the engine mounts and tie bar done (Fiat's first step) and on returning to storage no judder!! Today brought it home to give it a bath and uphill on grass again no judder. Even tried stopping half way up and restarting again no judder. Hope for other judder sufferers. Also there was a post on another forum (motorhome facts) where someone else had the same work done and his was also successful. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 ksebruce - 2009-07-14 3:01 PM As I said earlier had the engine mounts and tie bar done (Fiat's first step) and on returning to storage no judder!! Today brought it home to give it a bath and uphill on grass again no judder. Even tried stopping half way up and restarting again no judder. Hope for other judder sufferers. Also there was a post on another forum (motorhome facts) where someone else had the same work done and his was also successful. :-D Recently had new clutch lower ratio gear and layshaft changed on my Peugeot 5 speed, not had chance to do a steep reverse as yet but it does seem better. Anyone pictures of the Fiat new tie bar and a discription is this a totally new part or does it replace an existing item? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 ksebruce - 2009-07-14 3:01 PM As I said earlier had the engine mounts and tie bar done (Fiat's first step) and on returning to storage no judder!! Today brought it home to give it a bath and uphill on grass again no judder. Even tried stopping half way up and restarting again no judder. Hope for other judder sufferers. Also there was a post on another forum (motorhome facts) where someone else had the same work done and his was also successful. :-D That's a good positive first step then, but please don't overlook the bigger picture here. The judder is merely a symptom of a more significant underlying issue concerning the overly high reverse gear ratio in these vehicles. Masking or removing the judder will have made no difference to the high reverse ratio at all. The thing causing damage to most of these vehicles is not the judder, but the requirement to slip the clutch excessively in difficult reversing situations such as when reversing up hill or when needing to maintain a safer, slower reversing speed. This is resulting in burnt out clutches at very low mileages. The judder was also reported to wreck some gearboxes by causing gears to collide, but I think this is more of a rare occurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksebruce Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 urbanracer - 2009-07-14 3:33 PM ksebruce - 2009-07-14 3:01 PM As I said earlier had the engine mounts and tie bar done (Fiat's first step) and on returning to storage no judder!! Today brought it home to give it a bath and uphill on grass again no judder. Even tried stopping half way up and restarting again no judder. Hope for other judder sufferers. Also there was a post on another forum (motorhome facts) where someone else had the same work done and his was also successful. :-D Recently had new clutch lower ratio gear and layshaft changed on my Peugeot 5 speed, not had chance to do a steep reverse as yet but it does seem better. Anyone pictures of the Fiat new tie bar and a discription is this a totally new part or does it replace an existing item? No pics I'm afraid but I reversed it up the hill on grass with no prob whatsoever. Mine is the 6 speed 130 and has covered 15000 miles on an Itineo A class (just over 3 tonnes). Out of interest I tried reversing my car (not a Fiat) on tickover with the clutch right out and it's just as fast as my motorhome 8-) The garage (North East Truck) said they replaced the mounts and FITTED a tie bar so I assume the bar is new? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsgofar Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Hi All, Just had engine mounts & tiebar fitted, yesterday, Monday morning, to my vehicle 130 m/jet 6 speed, it has now lost its clunk on start-up, good point, I went on test run with Fiat technician, it still juddered when reversing in their inclined carpark, we moved on to another hill, not over steep, on tarmac, the vehicle didn't judder or viabrate as much as previous, but taking into account that the vehicle was unladened. The main test will be next week when I will be towing my small sports car on a car transporter, and reversing it on grass, to its allocated pitch in Maryport. I will report back the performance and also to Fiat. Regards to All Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Just got back from six weeks away in the van, met many X250 owners, most said that they had 'some problems with reversing' but liked the vehicle anyway, several said they intend to trade it in ASAP to get the latest Fiat WITH the upgraded Gearbox(incase of early clutch/gearbox failure) , So, for folk like me who buy nearly new,the ONLY answer is avoid X250's like the Plague (or swine flu). Another Myth about this Fault (and it IS a fault) is that it mostly affects 'Heavy' conversions ie 4 tonners, Andy Stotherts Fiat is a 3/4 Length Panel van, and his most certainly IS affected. For all you X250 owners who have never had problems, Sorry, but most folks think there is potential for early failures on ALL of them. Whether converters are continuing to use them or not. I'll be looking for anything BUT a post 2006 Sevel base,for my next van. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itexuk Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Also had engine mounts & tiebar fitted last week and can report that it is has made a vast improvement. No bump on start up and I can now reverse on flat tarmac and wet / dry grass with no judder. Not tried steep hill yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g.henaghan Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I have received a letter from Fiat customer relations saying my 3 litre motor-caravan is performing within the designed tolerance levels.They are "happy to advise me" no modifications are required on my vehicle. Where do we go from here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSHORT Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 g.henaghan - 2009-07-17 11:25 AM I have received a letter from Fiat customer relations saying my 3 litre motor-caravan is performing within the designed tolerance levels.They are "happy to advise me" no modifications are required on my vehicle. Where do we go from here? I have been told exactly the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g.henaghan Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I have received a letter from Fiat customer relations saying my 3 litre motor-caravan is performing within the designed tolerance levels.They are "happy to advise me" no modifications are required on my vehicle. Where do we go from here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 "Where do we go from here" ? You never buy another Fiat product - is a good place to start. They are happy and I guess that is all that matters to them until it starts to hurt them, which I doubt it ever will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I have a suggestion. A few of you with the awfull juddering meet up with the likes of Rupert and others who have a perfect vehicle. Test out each others driving skills at reversing etc and post us all the answers. There must be a equal waypoint to minimise extra travelling for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Has anyone sought the advice of their local Trading Standards department? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 As a possible 3 litre owner ( the deposit was paid in May 2008 but awaiting some positve action by fiat ) I am depressed by the response received by pshort and g.henaghan in respect of their 3 litre vans. To me in "Fiat speak" the phrases "design tolerance levels" and "characteristic of the vehicle" mean the same -- we do not want to know and if you think there is aproblem it is up to you to prove it.Andy probably has the information but as he is away could anyone let me know if they have had a3 litre rectified and if so with what sucess as I recollect some owners of 3 litre vans talking of work about to be carried out.If there a number of 3 litre owners being giv en the same negative response thenthe facts speak for themselves and I better exert my energy towards getting my deposit back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhometone Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Advice please After the full judder modifications (mounts-lower gear etc) have been applied does the garage formally record this fact in the owners Service Record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I would have thougt so. Why do you ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 g.henaghan - 2009-07-17 11:25 AM I have received a letter from Fiat customer relations saying my 3 litre motor-caravan is performing within the designed tolerance levels.They are "happy to advise me" no modifications are required on my vehicle. Where do we go from here?I have it on good authority from a well known and very honest dealer that the 3Ltr does indeed have a problem, as they have had them reported to them. They also confirmed that Fiat are in denial regarding it. >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhometone Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Peter. It may at some time in the future assist in selling my motorhome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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