Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[roger20]

Its not recorded in the Service book. The Fiat dealer carrying out the work will not be able to give you a copy of the warranty worksheet because they are instructed by Fiat to treat this as an internal matter (despite the fact that the work has been carried out to your vehicle!).

 

If you need a record of the work which has been carried out you need to ask Fiat.

[Earthmover]

Hi Motorhometone,

One would think that all this negative press regarding the Ducato X250 base vehicle, would send out some sort of message to Motor home converters, both here and abroad. But it seems not to be the case, when looking at the 2010 new models lists?. A lot of them are dropping the Ford base and building only on the Fiat?. They must be giving them away!!, or perhaps Fiat are doing a Two for One promotion.

Em.

[colin weston]

Motorhometone

It is important that you get evidence of any rework on your gearbox to prove to a future buyer that you have had the work done. When I had my Peugeot-based Autocruise modified I was given a 'Customer Handback Report'. Description of the fault was 'Customer has excessive clutch judder when engaging reverse. Fault diagnosed as faulty reverse gear kit. Obtained approval from Peugeout Technical Centre to replace with new reverse gear kit and inspect clutch for signs of premature wear. No premature wear present on clutch, rebuilt gearbox and tested - all OK on test.' Needless to say they tested it unladen on a level surface! As I reported previously there has been a small improvement but the problem is still there under some conditions.

[Melvin]

I recieved an email from Fiat 25/06/09, I emailed them back the same day, still no vouchers, what a waste of time.

 

Dear Mr xxxx,

 

We are yet to receive confirmation that you are happy to accept the £100 vouchers offered.

 

If you would like to accept our goodwill offer, please let me know.

 

Yours sincerely

 

xxxxxxxxxx

Customer Relations Supervisor

 

Colin as regard the reversing test, Fiat do exactly the same as Peugeot.

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi. I have just returned from a weekend at warminster organised by the local dealer. I had a chance to talk to the dealer who accepted that some sevel based vehicles suffered from gearbox problems and that it had been accepted that the reverse gear ratio was too high. He stated that anyone suffering has to contact either Peugeot or Fiat direct to get it sorted.

During the discussion he stated that largely, the problem was avoidable by adopting the correct driving technique, as in his view most of those who were complaining were doing so having discovered this forum on mmm and not adjusting their technique to suit their own vehicle's characteristic.

He did not accept the suggestion that the dealer had any direct responsibility for solving or helping solve the troubles. He further denied that there was any significant quantity of affected vehicles, only a very few.

He then declined to discuss the situation any further.

 

tonyg3nwl

 

 

[bobalobs]

Tony.

Hang on is not your legal contract with the dealer? Do they take the profit when all is well and avoid the issue when problems arise? Have fiat made this offer to them so as to persuade them to sell the vans?

[Brian Kirby]

Earthmover - 2009-07-19 11:42 AM Hi Motorhometone, .............. or perhaps Fiat are doing a Two for One promotion. Em.

  

Otherwise known as Buy One Get One Free, or a BOGOF which, if I understand correctly, approximates to Fiat's response!  :-)

[Bazza454]

Brian Kirby - 2009-07-19 10:49 PM

Earthmover - 2009-07-19 11:42 AM Hi Motorhometone, .............. or perhaps Fiat are doing a Two for One promotion. Em.

  

Otherwise known as Buy One Get One Free, or a BOGOF which, if I understand correctly, approximates to Fiat's response!  :-)

If referring to the clutch or gearbox it could be a WIGIG, when it's gone, it's gone.

[zulurita]

Have taken my motorhome into the dealer today (who is also Fiat authorised service centre) for the reverse judder modification (engine mounts, clutch and gear mods).

 

All being well I colloect it on Thursday.

 

I must remember to test drive it to see if all is ok.

[Guest Tracker]

The letter from John Denton on page 15 of the August 2009 MMM might be of help to those with the ongoing reverse gear problems.

 

It seems that there is a proper replacement lower ratio gear solution available for those who push hard enough but Fiat are just too mean and too dishonest to openly apply it to all victims without the application of considerable duress.

[Guest Tracker]

I as write this posting Fiat UK are again logged in on this forum.

 

Would anyone be brave enough to tell us all what Fiat are looking for??

[Derek Uzzell]

My understanding (and I readily admit to not regularly following postings to 'judder-related' threads on this forum) is this:

 

1. There is a lower reverse-gear-ratio modification available for (and that has been fitted to) Fiat Ducatos with 2.3litre motor/6-speed gearbox (like John Denton's motorhome) and Peugeot Boxers with 2.2litre motor/6-speed gearbox.

 

2. There is a lower reverse-gear-ratio modification available for (and that has been fitted to) Peugeot Boxers with 2.2litre motor/5-speed gearbox. However, I don't think this modification has been fitted to (or is been offered for) Fiat Ducatos with 2.2litre motor/5-speed gearbox.

 

3. As far as I'm aware no lower reverse-gear-ratio modification is available for Ducatos/Boxers with the 3.0litre motor, and there is no current intention by Fiat or Peugeot to offer one.

 

If that overview is incorrect, or incomplete, then it might be helpful if owners of problem-afflicted X250 Ducatos/Boxers, or Fiat/Peugeot representatives, corrected it.

[tonyg3nwl]

bobalobs - 2009-07-19 9:26 PM

 

Tony.

Hang on is not your legal contract with the dealer? Do they take the profit when all is well and avoid the issue when problems arise? Have fiat made this offer to them so as to persuade them to sell the vans?

 

I cannot comment whether they have or not. My van is currently back at Peugeot for a second investigation, having had replacement gears and heavy duty clutch fitted first time round. Customer services asked me to arrange it. Outcome awaited.

 

Original order paperwork refers back to sale of goods act for terms and conditions other than payment terms. Sale of goods Act is quite lengthy and as I have already had one attempt to get it fixed by Peugeot and a second in progress, I do wonder if Act could if necessary now be invoked.Is there any one legally trained care to comment.

 

tonyg3nwl

[Guest Tracker]

 

I emailed the CC about the lack of reversing info in any of their Design and Drive tests and they have very neatly side stepped their responsibility to their members with the following reply, and I quote -

 

"Thank you for your email passed to me for reply being responsible for the production of the Club’s Motor Caravan Design and Drive Awards and also my sincere apologies for the late rely.

 

The Motor Caravan Design and Drive Awards judging criteria does not currently include a reversing test however we are of course constantly reviewing all the Awards criteria and I can assure you that this matter is already noted for such a revision.

Thank you for taking the time to write to us.

Yours sincerely

 

Len Short

 

Events Manager

The Caravan Club " End of Quote

 

Those of you who have issues might like to consider emailing Mr Short and expressing your opinions of their short comings?

 

len.short@caravan-club.co.uk

 

No doubt he would be happy to review the scope of their tests in the light of owner feedback?

 

[Melvin]

Melvin - 2009-07-19 3:40 PM

 

I recieved an email from Fiat 25/06/09, I emailed them back the same day, still no vouchers, what a waste of time.

 

Dear Mr xxxx,

 

We are yet to receive confirmation that you are happy to accept the £100 vouchers offered.

 

If you would like to accept our goodwill offer, please let me know.

 

Yours sincerely

 

xxxxxxxxxx

Customer Relations Supervisor

 

Vouchers came recorded delivery this morning

[Brian Kirby]

tonyg3nwl - 2009-07-22 9:12 AM

bobalobs - 2009-07-19 9:26 PM Tony. Hang on is not your legal contract with the dealer? Do they take the profit when all is well and avoid the issue when problems arise? Have fiat made this offer to them so as to persuade them to sell the vans?

I cannot comment whether they have or not. My van is currently back at Peugeot for a second investigation, having had replacement gears and heavy duty clutch fitted first time round. Customer services asked me to arrange it. Outcome awaited. Original order paperwork refers back to sale of goods act for terms and conditions other than payment terms. Sale of goods Act is quite lengthy and as I have already had one attempt to get it fixed by Peugeot and a second in progress, I do wonder if Act could if necessary now be invoked.Is there any one legally trained care to comment. tonyg3nwl

Under the Sale of Goods Acts/Supply of Goods Act the dealer is, indeed, responsible for the quality of the goods he supplies.  However, in this case the good is a motorhome, and not a pair of shoes, and so the matter of "fit for purpose" is far more difficult to ascertain. 

The supplied vehicles have a defect that affects their ability to reverse uphill.  Responsibility for rectification of this defect lies outside the power of the dealer, in that any remedy has to be executed by the manufacturer of the base vehicle: in these cases Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen as may be relevant.  Rectification is not automatic, and is controlled under the terms of the base vehicle manufacturer's warranty, which is additional to, and therefore outside, the scope of the dealer's statutory liabilities.

Warranties are not contractual: they are, in effect, promises by the manufacturer to make such repairs as he considers reasonable, and he alone (since the SMMT seems totally supine over this matter - hardly surprising as it is a trade "Club") determines what will be done, at what cost to him.  If the base vehicle manufacturer, who must be presumed the greatest expert in the expected performance of his own vehicles, says there is no problem, or concedes that there was a problem but he has now fixed it, what, exactly, is the motorhome dealer expected to do?

If you reply he should accept your rejection of the vehicle, just consider.  If you seek to reject you will have to state your grounds.  The dealer will presumably counter that in every other respect the vehicle performs as it should, and that all available remedies have now been applied.  He will argue that the inability to reverse up certain hills is a minor aspect of a motorhome's use, that does not detract from other aspects of if its use as a motorhome.  He will state that other users do not find the problem, or have been satisfied with the remedy on offer.  If really cornered, he will presumably draw in the converter, who may seek to draw in expert witnesses from the base vehicle manufacturer.

All this argument would have to take place in a court, under whose rules the plaintiff pays the defendant's costs if he loses his case. 

This is not a legal opinion, I am not qualified to give one.  It is however, based on a fairly close reading of advice from Trading Standards, and from a bit of experience of court proceedings.  I'm not seeking to advance a "councel of despair", nor to defend the system we have.  However, it is the system we have, and at times it works - as in these cases - in a way that is very unequal as between an individual of modest means and a multi-national corporation.

If you want to try to get this situation changed, you should try writing to your MP asking him to pursue a change to the law, to require manufacturer's warranties to be made contractual, so that a buyer can bring an action for breach directly against a manufacturer, where a seller is left powerless to remedy defects due to a manufacturer's unreasonable operation/interpretation of his warranty.

[Porky]

A reply to bobalobs, and not intended to in any way diminish the problems experienced by others, but a genuine attempt to offer a suggestion. We have owned our 3l auto Fiat in an Autotrail Tracker EKS for 12 weeks now and experienced a wide range of driving conditions, forwards and backwards.

So far it has handled perfectly and is an absolute delight to drive. With cruise control it seems to me to be the perfect combination. The Tracker being only 6.2m may be a factor. So if it is not to late bobalobs, and you still want to go ahead seriously consider going auto. Please everybody don`t tell me my clutch will disintegrate in 6 months time because the auto box is frying it. I will tell you in a year how it is going.

 

Roy Fuller

[bobalobs]

Thanks Porky for your help and it is clear that at this stage the 3litre auto is the only configuration that is receiving universal praise. I have two problems to resolve the first is the one you mention namely if there is abasic design defect in the gear ratios is not the perfect gearchange of the automatic box delaying problems arising and can I/ do I want to wait a year or more to see if that is the case?

The second problem is that it is a panel van conversion we have on order and in our more sane moments would accept that a 120bhp motor is more than enough to propel it as we are supposed to be retiring and slowing down! The 2.3 litre is a current no no with the 6 speed even if it still being made but the 3 litre auto costs another £2500. That is a lot of campsite fees for someone who has just seen what pathetic returns personal pension funnds are currently giving!!!

[Andy T]

Just a thought or perhaps a vain hope!

I have a 2.2 five speed Fiat, for which there is not, and never will be, a fix it seems.

However, having just read Brian's post about stalling on Mk 7 Transits, is a remap not a possible improvement for the Fiat too?

If F1 cars can be got away from the starting blocks by electronic wizardry and Transits can too, how about Fiat having a serious go at this? I know Fiat have previously suggested it and I know it won't cure the gear ratio issue but it might save burning clutches? What do you think Mr Fiat?

Andy.

[urbanracer]

Andy T - 2009-07-23 10:33 AM

 

Just a thought or perhaps a vain hope!

I have a 2.2 five speed Fiat, for which there is not, and never will be, a fix it seems.

However, having just read Brian's post about stalling on Mk 7 Transits, is a remap not a possible improvement for the Fiat too?

If F1 cars can be got away from the starting blocks by electronic wizardry and Transits can too, how about Fiat having a serious go at this? I know Fiat have previously suggested it and I know it won't cure the gear ratio issue but it might save burning clutches? What do you think Mr Fiat?

Andy.

 

I have the Peugeot 2.2 5 speed and after a lot of letters/e-mails and tele call had new gears/shaft and new clutch fitted 2 months ago,so if Peugeot can now do it why not fiat.

Mine still gives a bang/shudder on first start up which from reading forums Fiat have cured with a new engine mounts stabalizer.

[david lloyd]

bobalobs - 2009-07-22 10:24 PM

 

Thanks Porky for your help and it is clear that at this stage the 3litre auto is the only configuration that is receiving universal praise. I have two problems to resolve the first is the one you mention namely if there is abasic design defect in the gear ratios is not the perfect gearchange of the automatic box delaying problems arising and can I/ do I want to wait a year or more to see if that is the case?

The second problem is that it is a panel van conversion we have on order and in our more sane moments would accept that a 120bhp motor is more than enough to propel it as we are supposed to be retiring and slowing down! The 2.3 litre is a current no no with the 6 speed even if it still being made but the 3 litre auto costs another £2500. That is a lot of campsite fees for someone who has just seen what pathetic returns personal pension funnds are currently giving!!!

 

On the plus side though - it ought to hold its' residual value better than the other configurations in years to come.

 

David

[Nervous111]

I have a 2008 Explorer Group Compass Avante Garde 115 motorhome built on a Peugeot 5 speed chassis. which I bought new. It has the uphill reversing judder problem.

 

Believing this to be a reverse gear ratio problem I asked Peugeot for the first and reverse gear ratios for my vehicle. This is the information I received :

 

First gear 11 x 41 which is a ratio of 1:3.73

 

Reverse gear 13 x 26 which is a ratio of 1:2

 

This meant that reverse was almost twice as high as first and this seemed to explain the problem.

 

I was then told that the "fix" had now been sorted out I was asked to go to my Peugeot dealer to have the rectification work carried out. I learnt from the dealer that this work would consist of fitting :

 

- a new gearbox main shaft with a 12 tooth reverse gear pinion,

 

- two new reversing pinions with 27 and 41 teeth respectively and,

 

- a new clutch.

 

This seemed to infer that the new reverse gear would be 12 x 27 giving a ratio of 1:2.25, thus lowering the ratio by 12.5%. I couldn't believe that such a minor reduction could solve my juddering problem so I asked to see the parts. I then discovered that the originally mentioned 26 tooth and the new 27 tooth pinions were in fact the idler pinion and thus played no part in the ratio calculation. The layshaft reversing pinion was in actual fact the 41 tooth pinion which had the same tooth count before and after rectification.

 

This changed all the calculations. My original reverse gear ratio became 41/13 = 1:3.15, which is only 15.5% below first gear. I felt that this was sufficiently close to first gear to not be the cause of the juddering (but still left open the question why Peugeot had not followed the time tested practice of making reverse gear the same or lower than first gear).

 

The post rectification reverse gear ratio became 41/12 = 1:3.42, a gain of only 7.5%, which in my opinion seemed insufficient to correct a problem of the magnitude I was experiencing.

 

I asked Peugeot to explain the basis for this fix correcting the problem. The reply I received stated: "we acknowledge that in some cases where the rectification has been undertaken, customers have voiced concerns that the solution has not fully rectified the problem".

 

Based on my figures I fail to see how this fix can rectify any cases but I am not an automotive engineering expert. The letter goes on to state that : "These cases are currently under investigation at the highest level in France and our Technical Department here in the UK are liasing directly with them in an effort to resolve this matter.....The final solution will be communicated to the dealerships in due course who in turn will contact you for the rectification work to be undertaken".

 

There is no doubt that Peugeot are totally committed to resolving this matter and my dealership has been fully supportive. The simple fact seems to be that after two years the cause of this problem hasn't yet been discovered.

 

The motorhome supplier and my motorhome dealer have taken a very hands off position. It is my opinion that litigation may well be inevitable.

 

The reason we bought a new vehicle was to avoid this sort of problem!

 

I would welcome any comments.

 

Nervous111

 

 

[Guest peter]

Anybody seen the news about the guy who got his guitar smashed up by american airlines and they ignored his complaint for 2 years? He composed a song slagging them off and put it on U Tube. Strangely he soon got a call offering compensation.

Perhaps a similar approach may give Fiat a good jolt to get things sorted and stop treating their customers so badly.

[libby]

A bit like one of my customers some while ago. He persisted in sending cheques that bounced.

 

I simply pinned them on the notice board for all to see. Never had any more.

 

How's about a FIAT song to advertise the problems. Graham in France may have a thought.

 

The lyrics are easy enough just needs a musical background added.

 

Chorus To the tune of Oh Mr Porter

 

Oh Mr FIAT what a silly thing to do

My clutch has gone and busted

Now its really up to you.

You've told us all big porkies

From many moons ago

Oh Mr FIAT what a silly thing to do"

 

 

[Guest peter]

Had the so called engine mount fix done today but as it only takes 2 Hrs I am sceptical as to the actual work done. Looking at the mounts it would take me a lot longer than this. As there is a bit of dismantling of engine bay parts to be able to reach the mounts.

The underneath stabiliser looks simple enough. Looking at the top mounts after the "fix", the one behing the coolant tank I definately know was not changed as it has water marking from washing that was there before. The other on, I'm not sure.

Does anyone have the original part numbers and what parts are normally changed.

I spoke to the mechanic but he was evasive.