libby Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Wrong country, Graham in Spain not France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 emporium - 2009-07-25 3:34 PM However Fiat and Peugeot are concerned enough (even about the 5 speed box) that a modified version will be in production in about 5 weeks time. Peugeot tell us that the modified 6 speed gearbox is now in production and is being fitted to ALL the vehicles coming out of the Sevel factory, no matter what badge is on them. Re: Andy Stotherts comments above - for those of us who are contemplating buying a new motorhome does anyone know how you can tell whether the modified gearbox has been fitted, eg chassis number? Cheers, JimCopied from the old juddering thread into which it seems to have found its way. Might be interesting to know where this information re the new gearbox came from, as I think we have been here before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emporium Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Hi Brian, I am new to this forum so I must have posted on the wrong thread. To answer your question I got this information from a post Andy Stothert made on 25th feb 2009 8.16pm on the other/old thread. I assume this is wrong then and the faulty gearbox is still in production? My wife and I are keen to buy a new motorhome but the layout/price we want is only available on the Fiat/peugeot chassis. Cheers, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emporium Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Sorry, posted twice!!! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I added my observations to Andy's comments back in February and before that in November when rumours of a revised gearbox first started circulating. I was told by my source that there was not going to be a new gearbox until the Euro 5 engines were launched and assumed that this would be this September but (we all know not to assume) I know now that this does not have to happen until late 2010 and will not appear before. For some riddiculous and inexplicable reason the introduction of Euro 5 and (EEV's) are being staggered over about 18 months for the different classes of vehicles with heavy trucks first, then cars and finally light commercials. Don't get me started. To be clear then; For the 2.3 6 speed there is no 'new' gearbox. Not in production, nor waiting in the wings. There may be something going on for the 2.2 5 speed but that project is led by Ford and Peugeot so I don't know. There is nothing in the pipeline for 3.0 vehicles either. More worrying than that is the fact that the 'modifications' being carried out to your vehicles are not being incorporated onto new vehicles at the factory because "The vast majority of vehicles are unaffected when in their eventual roles." From what I have heard the gearbox mods can introduce some undesirable sound effects that probably should not be present on every new vehicle if they are not needed. Significantly, dealers cannot order the modification parts unless told to by Fiat or Peugeot. It is highly probable that unless you get the work done under warranty you will not be able to get it done at all. My advice would be to stick to your guns and complain, complain, complain until you get every mod being offered before your warranty runs out and get copies of the warranty documents being sent to Fiat as proof. Your dealer does not have to give you this but if you reason with them regarding the future value of your vehicle you will probably find them sympathetic. After your warranty expires you will be on your own and will not get any further support from Fiat. That is how things are with Fiat and EVERY OTHER manufacturer. All have built-in flaws that you have to discover before it is too late! Some are worse than others and I personally would not touch a Transit with a bargepole! The arrogance and poor design employed by the blue oval is simply shocking. If you do not think you have the stamina to see the Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problem through; don't buy one. If you roll the dice and get a good one you will have an excellent vehicle but (to borrow a phrase) Do you feel lucky? On a slightly more positive note; Clutch kits and flywheels and other parts that may become damaged are available at much lower prices from your dealer if you know what to ask for. If you find youself in difficulty and need some advice when faced with a inexplicably expensive quote for repairs feel free to send me a PM and I will help if I can. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emporium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Thanks Nick, That was very clear and informative. Fiat/Peugeot have lost a sale. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 emporium - 2009-07-27 10:50 AM Thanks Nick, That was very clear and informative. Fiat/Peugeot have lost a sale. Jim They've lost a lot more than one sale Jim - but not enough for them to sit up and take notice it would appear - and it all comes down to numbers at the end of the day and has nothing to do with customer satisfaction If ever Fiat's perception of the total lost profit from lost unit sales exceeds the cost of modifying existing and production transmissions they will act. Until then don't hold your breath! As Nick says, 'ad hoc' modifications can have unpredictable side effects - often long after the warranty has expired. Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulurita Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Well i have had the modification work done. Engine mounts, clutch and re-worked reverse gear. I understood a Fiat technician would do a test drive with the customer afterwards but NO even though I asked it was up to me to do a test. I did so at another part of the dealers where there is a bit of an incline. It seemed to judder worse than before. However I was doing the old technique as mention by Peter of Johnscross motorhomes. i.e put it in reverse gear and gently engage and let motorhomes momentum reverse the vehicle with gentle throttle if required. Doing that it seemed to be quicker in moving and then juddered! The service manager was around so he had a go and it seemed better, my friend who was in the motorhome said he used more throttle. I had another go and this time it seemed better. So it looks like I have to get used to a different technique. So will have to try reversing in a few situations before making a judgement on this modification. HOWEVER I must point out that I have been driving motorhomes since 1996 and this is the FIRST TIME I have had an issue with reversing and in particular juddering!!! I am on my 6 th motorhome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Interesting that Nick states he would not touch a Transit, so with Fiat and Ford of the list what is left. The ancient Mercedes that is looking very dated now or Renault. Their is a new Renault coming I believe but how good will this be, we will not know until the customers have tested it for them. The real concern though must be choice and with Fiat and Ford out their is very little. I have had my current van 18 months now and will probably change next year but what to? As I have been saying on here for 12 months now my current Fiat five speed has run without fault, no water, no vibration so another five speed then but this is being changed, although Fiat still seem to be saying this is not so. Out of curiousity I telephoned Fiat in Slough and spoke to a Justin West and asked him about the five speed, which I know from here and MHF forum that some have had trouble with. He stated that he knows nothing about Peugeot replacing parts and did not even accept they were the same box. He is prepared to put in writing that Fiat have no problem with the five speed and will not be doing anything about it. As to future problems that is up to the dealers to decide on whether a part will be replaced, but only during warrenty period. So all those with five speed 2.2 or 3.0 litre you have had it, no fix is available now and is never likely to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mendipman Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 :'( :'( Just thinking of a ford based Globecar (!) (!) Whats left , VW or Toyota!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (!) (!) (!) (?) (?) (?) (?) :-( :-( (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mendipman Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 rupert123 - 2009-07-27 3:59 PM The ancient Mercedes that is looking very dated now . The latest Mercedes came out about same time as x250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 euroserv - 2009-07-27 10:29 AM More worrying than that is the fact that the 'modifications' being carried out to your vehicles are not being incorporated onto new vehicles at the factory because "The vast majority of vehicles are unaffected when in their eventual roles." From what I have heard the gearbox mods can introduce some undesirable sound effects that probably should not be present on every new vehicle if they are not needed. Nick It was my understanding that Pug have modded the 2.2 6 speed in production and I think have publicly stated this, are you talking about Fiat 2.3, all 5 speeds and 3litre's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 peter - 2009-07-23 9:16 PM Had the so called engine mount fix done today but as it only takes 2 Hrs I am sceptical as to the actual work done. Looking at the mounts it would take me a lot longer than this. As there is a bit of dismantling of engine bay parts to be able to reach the mounts. The underneath stabiliser looks simple enough. Looking at the top mounts after the "fix", the one behing the coolant tank I definately know was not changed as it has water marking from washing that was there before. The other on, I'm not sure. Does anyone have the original part numbers and what parts are normally changed. I spoke to the mechanic but he was evasive.Well.....Does anybody have the original part numbers for the mounts. As I want to check which parts have not been changed on mine. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 As the Mercedes Sprinter has been mentioned as an alternative motorhome base, it might be worth adding that, in June, French motorcaravan magazines published details of forthcoming Euro 5-compliant Sprinter power-plants. A 3.0litre V6, mated to a 'traditional' automatic gearbox, gets 6 more bhp (190bhp) and 33Nm of torque (440Nm) compared to the current Euro 4 version. The present Euro 4 range of 2.2litre 4-cylinder units is replaced by completely new, smaller 2.1litre (2143cc) motors. There are three versions - 95bhp/259Nm, 129bhp/305Nm or 163bhp/360Nm - the first with a single variable-geometry turbocharger and the other two having twin turbos. To minimise vibration, each motor has twin Lanchester balancer-shafts. The 6-speed "ECO" manual gearbox is said to have a particularly high top-gear ratio (for economical fast cruising) and a particularly low bottom gear (for town work and easy hill-starting). All Euro 5 motors will offer improved economy and reduced emissions. Sprinter chassis apparently will continue unchanged except for better-aerated cab-seats and 'smart' stop-lights. It is anticipated that the Euro 5 motors will become available for 2010 'model year' Sprinter-based motorhomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itexuk Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Had my engine mounts changed a couple of weeks ago. You can see that both have been changed, they look as though they have just come out of a new packet. They have made a vast difference, I can now reverse in most situations but still get slight judder now and again. Part Number left as you look at engine F1A 1363376080 and right F1A 1363378080 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itexuk Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Sorry double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Hello campers, Colin first; Yes I am referring to the Fiat 2.3 6 speed because that is the only Fiat that has had any internal work done on it. I don't run Peugeots and have never examined the 6 speed gearbox but am certain that it is significantly different to the Fiat 6 speed because it fits a totally different engine. I doubt very much if Peugeot have rolled out the modifications either. Too much cost for such a small number of problems, and they can afford to do it less than Fiat can. Derek is right but I would not believe all you read regarding fuel consumption. Emissions have been reduced through each successive Euro standard, but fuel consumption has been significantly worsened also and that to me is madness because surely the best way of reducing emissions is to use less fuel. The part to watch is the 'EEV' which is Energy Efficient Vehicle. This standard is higher than Euro 5 and 'anticipates' Euro 6 while incorporating fuel consumption reduction. The only way to improve fuel consumption now is to introduce a chemical (AKA Ad-Blue) into the exhaust to clean the emissions and therefore use less EGR which strangles the engine. Both Iveco and Merc have announced that they will be introducing these EEV's shortly but bear in mind these two irrefutable facts. You will have another fuel tank to fill up (though less often than Diesel) at a cost of about 50p per litre and it is not as easy to find as you might think considering trucks have been using it for 3 years. The first vehicles will be plagued with problems and you should remember that the fairly well sorted final version of 'last years vehicle' will be an infinitely safer bet than a 'work in progress field trial' of something new, irritating and probably rubbish. I suggest that you leave this stuff well alone until the van people have done 50,000 miles in them. Then see if they dare to lend one to Andy Stothert. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Off topic maybe but I would agree with Nick about fuel consumption. Every set of new regulations starting with catalytic converters has worsened the real life fuel economy of most vehicles and all in the name of saving the planet. What a load of rubbish! My current car has all this stop start and regenerative crap and although the VCA theoretical fuel consumption figures are amazing given it's power the reality is somewhat different and it is no better in the real world than the car that it replaced and is supposed to be so much better than! The only consolation is a reduced VED! How on Earth can using more fuel to do the same job be better for the planet - but if it keeps the eco bandits at bay I suppose that is a good thing! I'm sticking the the previous model Boxer for the forseeable future and am seriously thinking of going back to a pre cat, no depreciation, no gizmos 'classic' for everyday use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brom Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 mendipman - 2009-07-27 6:12 PM :'( :'( Just thinking of a ford based Globecar (!) (!) Whats left , VW or Toyota!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (!) (!) (!) (?) (?) (?) (?) :-( :-( (?) Nowt wrong with our Transit Globecar - works well, if you don't mind a tiny washroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brom Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 mendipman - 2009-07-27 6:12 PM :'( :'( Just thinking of a ford based Globecar (!) (!) Whats left , VW or Toyota!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (!) (!) (!) (?) (?) (?) (?) :-( :-( (?) Nowt wrong with our Transit Globecar, if you can cope with a small washroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Just back from the Silverstone Classic. A petrolhead delight with sports and racing cars of every era. Passing the Alfa pit spot a very smart camper. Hang on it is a Alfa badged Ducato. Perhaps we have cracked it. This is the way fiat are going to produce a modified vehicle without admitting fault? Sorry to raise hopes for the remaining possible ducato purchasers. The steering boss revealed it was born a Citroen. Interesting an Italian team do not want a Fiat badge on their bonnet!!! Have the pictures but do not know how to attach! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Alfa are part of Fiat group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Itexuk - 2009-07-28 8:40 AM Had my engine mounts changed a couple of weeks ago. You can see that both have been changed, they look as though they have just come out of a new packet. They have made a vast difference, I can now reverse in most situations but still get slight judder now and again. Part Number left as you look at engine F1A 1363376080 and right F1A 1363378080Thank you my friend. I'll check mine tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Had the "fix" two weeks ago (kit B: engine mounts, gearbox mod & clutch) Early signs are promising, I can now reverse up a slightly complicated 1 in 4 under control, without shudder and importantly without clutch slip. My driveway is a bit more complicated involving oblique entry and reversing round 180 degrees up about 1 in 12. A little bit of clutch slip required here but no more than on my diesel Vovo estate. no problems at Maryport on very wet grass (apart from mud on leaving!). At the moment I have to say I'm fairly satisfied with the fix. County Motors at Carlisle carried out the work and were completely open about what was happening. Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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