Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[Guest peter]

Found this on a van dealers site. It would seem their euphoria was a little premature.

 

"Fiat & Peugeot cure the judders

in Fiat Ducato News,Peugeot Boxer News,Product Fix,Van News

Whilst it may be one of the most popular large panel vans in the van market, the Fiat Ducto is perhaps not the most refined. It can't compete with the VW Crafter or Mercedes-Benz Sprinter vans for example. However, Ducato van drivers will today be jumping up and down with joy because Fiat thinks it has finally solved the juddering when a Ducato is reversed!

 

Whilst it didn't affect every Ducato, apparently a common complaint has been that they tend to judder whilst being reversed; especially if backing up an incline. By changing the engine mounts, Fiat can eradicate this problem which has plagued many Ducato drivers.

 

A Fiat spokesperson said "We’ve swapped the engine mountings on over 30 Ducatos so far [...] It’s usually the 120hp 2.3-litre diesel that’s involved.” More importantly, Fiat is offering this Ducato cure free of charge - just speak to your Fiat dealer.

 

It's also worth noting that the Peugeot Boxer has also been affected by the judder virus (oddly the Citroën Relay, which is a sister van of the Boxer and Ducato, appears to have escaped this problem). However, rather than changing engine mounts, Peugeot are "using a software download to deal with it" or "if the vehicle is fitted with a six-speed gearbox then we’ll either change the reverse gear or replace the entire ’box depending on which final drive ratio has been specified." A similar fix is apparently available if you own a five speed derivative of the Peugeot Boxer. Again, speak to your Peugeot dealer for more details."

 

[colin]

peter - 2009-08-10 10:43 PM

 

A Fiat spokesperson said "We’ve swapped the engine mountings on over 30 Ducatos so far [...] It’s usually the 120hp 2.3-litre diesel that’s involved.”

It's also worth noting that the Peugeot Boxer has also been affected by the judder virus (oddly the Citroën Relay, which is a sister van of the Boxer and Ducato, appears to have escaped this problem).

 

So a Fiat spokesperson says "It's usualy the 120hp 2.3" that to me means the others are also affected, some thing they deny.

I can assure you the Citroen Relay is affected just the same.

[rowley]

Called in at Van World in Chesterfield, Fiat Ducato dealers. I asked the salesman if Fiat have now cured the judder problem. His reply was that he had not heard of that one before! (meaning the judder)

[urbanracer]

Called in at Van World in Chesterfield, Fiat Ducato dealers. I asked the salesman if Fiat have now cured the judder problem. His reply was that he had not heard of that one before! (meaning the judder)

 

 

I do not know why, but that salesmans statement made me laugh!!!

How much product knowledge must he have taken in or he knows the truth and he is blocking it out :-D

[urbanracer]

Called in at Van World in Chesterfield, Fiat Ducato dealers. I asked the salesman if Fiat have now cured the judder problem. His reply was that he had not heard of that one before! (meaning the judder)

 

 

I do not know why, but that salesmans statement made me laugh!!!

How much product knowledge must he have taken in or he knows the truth and he is blocking it out :-D

[embee]

Has anyone yet discussed trade in prices with a dealer when looking at changing their problem vehicle ?

 

I would imagine one would soon find out the salesman will have heard about reversing problems - very much so !!

 

No doubt it would be brought up during discussions and the price marked down.

 

Should the deal be acceptable just to get rid of the MH - watch the price it will be showing on the windscreen in the next few days.

 

Oh - and the sales man will never of heard of any reversing problems again!!

[andy mccord]

embee - 2009-08-11 10:26 PM

 

Has anyone yet discussed trade in prices with a dealer when looking at changing their problem vehicle ?

 

I would imagine one would soon find out the salesman will have heard about reversing problems - very much so !!

 

No doubt it would be brought up during discussions and the price marked down.

 

I doubt it, considering they are still selling the same vehicle with the same problem

[bobalobs]

Where are we with the 3 litre manual? Fiat deny any problem whilst we have PShort and Videomaster recently posting of their difficulties gearbox wise and there are others on other threads with similar problems.

For our two friends they are told that they were only booked in for remedial work because Fiat thought they had 2.3 litre rather than 3litre vehicles. Even if you believe this and it says a lot for fiats records these vehicles must have been tested by authorised fiat agents before the authority was given for the remedial work to take place. So at that stage there was a problem that needed resolving and now there is not!!??

[Derek Uzzell]

bobalobs

 

Videomaster's posting of 9 August indicated that he had notified Fiat that his 3.0litre-engined motorhome displayed the juddering characteristic before actually knowing (at the time of complaint) whether or not this was true. Subsequent uphill reversing manoeuvres while he was holidaying abroad showed the motorhome to be judder-free.

 

Although Videomaster's 'white lie' gambit doesn't offend me ethically, I do wonder about the wisdom of admitting to it on a forum that Fiat(UK) regularly views.

 

 

 

[bobalobs]

Derek .

Thanks for letting me know about Videomasters "white lie"which makes it very odd that the initial authority was given for remedial work.I cannot see Fiat agreeing without a preliminary inspection.

As to the other complainers with 3 litre manuals are they playing a similar tactic? If some are it does not help the genuine as it plays into Fiats hands.

[AndyStothert]

Some interesting information has arisen today from Peugeot who, where and when possible, seem to be treating their customers in a much better way than Fiat.

Briefly one of the owners of the 6 speed 120 Peugeots who has had the full range of modifications done to their van and not found them to be totally satisfactory (like many Fiat owners) has had authorisation from Peugueot to have a complete new gearbox fitted, and been told that they are confident that this will provide a solution.

So it seems that Fiat's assertion that they have done everything which is possible to sort this out may be just another fib aimed at minimising the costs involved.

It may be also be that Peugeot's previous claim that there is now a gearbox in production with a lower reverse gear which fits the 2.2 litre engines (and possibly not the Iveco 2.3 Fiat ones) to be true, despite Fiat's not supplying any information whatsoever.

In order to carry on selling the 2.3 lire version with basically the same problem lurking within - but with the modified engine mountings and clutch damper masking it a little of course.

This may not be true of course but until Fiat supply any information which is both factual and accurate nobody will know exactly what they are buying at the present time. And the fact that Fiat will not tell anyone anything suggests the worst.

 

I also received some correspondence from another owner (of a 3litre van )who had an admission from one of the major convertors that they know there is a design problem with the reverse gear ratio and yet they continue to sell them.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Two points on that.  Since the PSA engine is common to the Transit, I assume they, at least, could be using the same source for the gearbox as Ford (assuming Ford don't make their own).

Second, looking through my French mag, which was reviewing early release the 2010 vans, I was amazed by how many of the converters who had adopted the Transit for 2009, were back with Sevel for 2010.

Don't know if Ford upset the converters - there were stories about supply problems - or just put their prices up, or whether the Sevel vans are now being given away with cornflakes, or whether we shall see a sudden rush of very wealthy purchasing managers around Europe, but neither Fiat's abysmal customer relations, nor all those complaints from aggrieved customers, seem to have done their market penetration any harm at all.  Funny, that, and surely unhealthy?

[euroserv]

Surely the real problem is that despite the problems that we all know exist, people keep buying the X250 conversions, because the dealers still stock them and the coachbuilders still build them. I would suggest that if people actually stopped buying them then it would only be a matter of months before someone noticed the lack of demand and the builders would have to either force some engineering changes or drop the chassis completely. The resulting stock of unsold vehicles (which are not of merchantable quality anyway) would be returned to the builders and there would be sufficient second hand vehicles around for those that feel lucky to throw their money at.

 

In the long term values would be unaffected because of the novelty value and lack of examples available to those that simply must have one.

 

Perhaps a campaign of "Just say No!" would do the trick.

 

Nick

[david lloyd]

You're probably right, Nick, and only the cessation of sales of motorhomes on the sevel chassis would provoke a permanent, reliable solution.

 

However, it is probably also true to say that the majority of people buying motorhomes (new and second hand) are still unaware of the issue. Many people, me included iniitally, hardly get past the layout and internal spec /appearance of their first couple of motorhomes.

 

Even those with a more cautious attitude and who are prone to inspecting/testing everything before deciding upon the vehicle/model they like are not necessarily going to think of including a reverse gear test uphill on the test drive.

 

Unfortunately, despite the high cost of a motorhome purchase, it still remains, for many, an impulse buy and perhaps many of those will never drive the vehicle in any situation that will induce the judder fault so will remain blissfully unaware.

 

Lastly, there is the unfortunate truth that in some cases the simple choice is sevel chassis or not having a motorhome as, perhaps after years of changin models and trying new layouts, the only model that suits is only built on sevel..............between the devil and the deep blue sea.

 

David

[Guest Tracker]

Lack of publicity is the prime reason most buyers of new vans are unaware of the potential for problems.

 

The 'integrity' of Fiat, the converters and the dealers all of whom deny any faults remains unquestioned by a largely trusting Joe Public most of whom only learn about the problems after purchase or when it fails to do what it should.

 

I do my bit at shows by warning as many people as possible to be aware of the potential problems and some take heed but many others just shrug their shoulders in a 'can't happen to me look'.

 

However, now being so disillusioned with new vans, new van prices, and show prices that include the 'free' entertainment that we don't really want, that we have temporarily stopped going to shows, besides which - Fiat will be glad to know - we don't wish to spend spend our entire weekend at a show on a crusade!

[Brian Kirby]

Most of the X250 sales are, presumably, new vans.  Most of the buyers of new vans are, presumably, first time buyers: many, again presumably, being new retirees.  Few, as Rich suggests, will have heard of the problems (because they won't have researched much more than the layout and the decor), and most will assume that a combination of Fiat/PSA, and any responsible converter, will ensure they get a practical, reliable, vehicle.  In truth, that is as it should be, and they can't be blamed for being trusting.

The trouble with us lot is that we all know better, as a result of our own, or our shared, experiences, and take a more leery view of the products on offer, be they the base vehicles or the conversions.

In truth, we can't really embark on a "don't buy this or that" product campaign, sheer logistics are against us, and the consequences of trying to inform by media exposure would be legal action by those whose products we rubbished.

Thus, for the foreseeable future, there will be countless hopefuls queueing up to buy flawed products in complete, trusting, innocence, and I can't see how that can be averted.  Of these, many will, again as said above, never realise the extend of the flaw, others will have their dreams shattered and their confidence in their form of transport severely shaken.  While Fiat seem to have been particularly inept, and it takes a special kind of ineptitude to make PSA look the good guys, it is, in truth, the converters who always had the greatest opportunity to end this farce.

Had they truly acted in their clients' interests, they would have ceased ordering the SEVEL products, switched their loyalty elsewhere, and the SEVELs would miraculously have re-emerged, properly re-engineered at a later date.  We, the buying public, would then have had true choice, and the reliability in use we have a right to expect from such expensive products.  That we have not is far more a collective fault on the part of the converters, than it is a fault of the SEVEL duo. 

Perhaps we should shift our aim?

[mike 202]

I agree with Brian, if the converters ask for a product then the chassis manufacturers are hardly going to say NO !! - So maybee although Fiat are producing a chassis with faults, it is the converters who appear to be compounding the problem. They all want customer loyalty but it would be nice if it was both ways. Still for the majority it is unlikely to happen.

[Guest peter]

Tracker - 2009-08-14 11:42 AM

 

Lack of publicity is the prime reason most buyers of new vans are unaware of the potential for problems.

 

The 'integrity' of Fiat, the converters and the dealers all of whom deny any faults remains unquestioned by a largely trusting Joe Public most of whom only learn about the problems after purchase or when it fails to do what it should.

 

I do my bit at shows by warning as many people as possible to be aware of the potential problems and some take heed but many others just shrug their shoulders in a 'can't happen to me look'.

 

However, now being so disillusioned with new vans, new van prices, and show prices that include the 'free' entertainment that we don't really want, that we have temporarily stopped going to shows, besides which - Fiat will be glad to know - we don't wish to spend spend our entire weekend at a show on a crusade!

I'm glad to hear it. You want to get a life Richard. I know there is a potential problem in some vans in some circumstances. But I've better things to do than go to shows with the main intent of telling every potential purchaser of a X2/50 based van that it's a pile of crap and not to buy one and I've got one myself , so do know a bit more than you about them.>:-) Secondly not all dealers are denying that some people have had problems. So how dare you question their integrity. I'm not defending Fiat or anyone else that misrepresents a product. As even Andy Stothert has confirmed, not all vans are affected. So how can Fiat fix vans that they don't know have a problem until someone uses it in the way that brings it to light. It's no different than if I bought a Jaguar car that they state is capable of doing 160 Mph, that some drivers find not to be the case if I only ever take it to 100 Mph.

[Guest peter]

mike 202 - 2009-08-14 4:56 PM

 

I agree with Brian, if the converters ask for a product then the chassis manufacturers are hardly going to say NO !! - So maybee although Fiat are producing a chassis with faults, it is the converters who appear to be compounding the problem. They all want customer loyalty but it would be nice if it was both ways. Still for the majority it is unlikely to happen.

Problem is that the converters have spent a fortune re-tooling and designing their vans for the Sevel chassis that they would be very reluctant to do it all again. Plus who is going to pay for it all ?. It could mean much higher prices and as there is a recession it won't happen.

Also some would go to the wall, meaning less choice.

[Melvin]

Peter,

 

I may be looking to change my van in the near future, but not for a Fiat, I have enough of the last pile of rubbish they sold me

[colin]

david lloyd - 2009-08-14 11:33 AM

Lastly, there is the unfortunate truth that in some cases the simple choice is sevel chassis or not having a motorhome as, perhaps after years of changin models and trying new layouts, the only model that suits is only built on sevel..............between the devil and the deep blue sea.

 

This is where I find myself, my T25 requires some major surjery that I can't find the enthusiam to do, and the best width panel van for the layout I want is an X250.

Last year was not to much of a problem as we had no time for a holiday, this year we have rented for one holiday and tented for one, once again 'luckly' we are unable to have much time off but I miss the van for even the odd day out.

I'm now looking to get van for next year when we may return to a 'normal' life, there's not too many months left when I need to make a disition.

[Guest Tracker]

Please Peter before you go shouting your mouth off again read my posting slowly and give it time to sink in this time before getting back on your holier than thou high horse again.

 

So lets deal with a few points shall we?

 

I do have a very good life indeed thanks for asking - due in no small part to NOT owning an X250 based motorhome.

 

I too have no intention of spending my weekends preaching to the unconverted. However if I am in an X250 based motorhome at a show or a dealer and a conversation breaks out with another viewer - as it so often does - I do mention the POTENTIAL - as I stated earlier the POTENTIAL - for transmission problems and the reluctance of Fiat to rectify them properly.

 

At no point have I ever said that the X250 is a pile of crap, and neither did I say that ALL dealers deny any fault - that's your imagination running riot again.

 

As for questioning dealer's (and converters) integrity - as well as Fiat's - if you look you may well find several hundred other owners of faulty vans doing something very similar - and you won't have to look very far!

 

I don't think it unreasonable that Fiat should have tested their vans fully laden reversing uphill ability before launching it upon an unsuspecting Europe - and many others might agree with me there too?

 

I would be mighty unhappy if the salesman with integrity said to me on handover of my shiny new £40,000 toy - 'it's a very nice van sir and it drives well forward but please don't take it anywhere where you may need to reverse it uphill'.

 

It's not a case of Fiat not fixing vans that they do not know have a fault - let's try and get them to fix the vans that they DO know have a fault first!

 

The Jaguar comparison is plain stupid and just shows your lack of ability to post a reasoned reply.

 

But by all means have another go at me if it makes you happy because if nothing else it keeps the topic in the headlines - but do try and do it without the red mist clouding your eyes!

[Tomo3090]

There seems to me a problem if all the converters suddenly changed chassis providers, and that is to those of us who have a FIAT van that DOESN'T judder! Where does that leave us?

 

Presumably seeing as there have been tens of thousands sold in the last three years and despite the problems met with by a lot of people on here and other forums, that, (as far as we all know with any certainty), the vast majority of owners have a van that behaves itself.

 

At the time of writing my van isn't a problem, it drives like a dream and has given me no trouble. I feel very sorry for anyone who's van has let them down and I think it is disgraceful the way FIAT have treated people and I would have no problem in signing a petition, throwing in for a whip round to hire a legal team or any such thing, but it would be just as unfair to those with working vans to have manufacturers proclaiming them little better than scrap, than it is for FIATs' continued lack of action to correct the faults in your vans.

 

I do tell people if I speak to them at a show or on a site that although I have no problems there are those that do, and they should read this and MHF website to get a proper understanding of where things stand.

[Rayjsj]

Peter And Tracker ! would you two please stop bickering through this Thread. It's far too important for that !

Peter, I know that you own an X250 based Burstner,presumably without the judder problem ? but there are a lot of people out here who DO have it, and a Lot more WILL get it, as the sale to the 'Innocents at home and abroad' continues, as they take advantage of low intrest rates on their bank savings and VAT reduction to 15%. OK so, Not ALL are affected but a lot are....So, tell me Punk ! (sorry,Clint) DO you feel lucky ?? Me, I wouldn't touch one (an X250) with a barge-pole. Especially a second hand one, WHY are the present owners selling so soon ?? as for never having to reverse, well you are probably right, but you or me MIGHT have to do it Tomorrow, and It'll probably happen miles from anywhere on a steep hill with a tractor and trailer coming uphill and you or me coming down. Judder judder , judder.....Bang ! Come on Fiat do the RIGHT thing ! *-) *-)

[Shaun]

My Adria Twin is having the second phase fix being done, as I write. I've discussed the situation with Fiat UK and Fiat Italy and they were adamant that many people noticed a dramatic improvement with the perceived Micky Mouse fix of sturdier engine mounts - so much so that they didn't want the invasive surgery which would follow, had they been dissatisfied.

 

I have to give Fiat their due; they rang me to ask if there had been any improvement after the mounts switch. I replied to the contrary and they instantly moved me onto the second phase. My local dealer had never dealt with the issue and I had to bring them up to speed with what it was all about. As a commercial dealer, their usual customer base is your Joe average van driver and not one had asked to have any reverse judder fixed. So, it seems fair to say that it's motorhomers who are the main group bending Fiat's ear.

 

I'm one of those who's perfectly happy with my van and I readily admit to not having had the need to reverse uphill in a 'live' situation. I've done it to test the judder and whether it could be overcome. It could, quite easily, but the van would then be tanking uphill at a worrying pace. It's something I'm prepared to live with, but I do appreciate that those who encounter situations where they need to go much slower in reverse, will be sorely disgruntled with this chassis. I'm also very mindful of people like Andy, whose use of the X250 means he's every reason to say it's not fit for purpose.

 

But many of the posts on our motorhome forums are geared towards the Andys of this world, when in reality many owners will not be using their motorhomes in the same way. This, of course, does not excuse Fiat for the design flaw and the reticence to fix it. However, when I read all these posts as to why people are still buying the Ducato, there seems to be a point being missed. It's like banks; no-one likes them, but you have to pick one and no doubt moan about its shortcomings afterwards.

 

I recall a year ago when the prophets of doom were stating with the utmost confidence that new but unwanted Ducato-based motorhomes would be rusting in fields and the second-hand market for used ones would disintegrate. Does no-one here remember that? Yet, the talk now is how the market appears to be holding up quite nicely.

 

The reason is surely simple: most owners are happy with the Ducato and regardless of whether or not they're aware of the judder and overly high reverse gearing, it's not enough to put them off buying one. Indeed, it's not enough to put me off buying another one and mine's in a garage right now having invasive surgery.

 

Shaun