Brian Kirby Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 It may also be helpful in any attempt you may make to claim the vehicle was mis-sold in the first place. However, I bet he won't put it in writing, and if he was asked in court what he had said, he'd have a sudden attack of amnesia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliB Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I have just had the 2nd part of the modifications done my vehicle (Fiat 2.3L 6 speed) and can report it is a success. I now have a lower reverse gear. A brief history of events goes as follows. Reported the fault to Fiat in April, Received a letter of confirmation explaining tests were being conducted to achieve a fix. Received a phone call in May to say I would be contacted by the local Fiat dealer to arrange a date for inspection. Received a phone call in June apologising for the delay. Quickly followed by a call from Northern Truck and Van in York to say they had the parts to perform the engine damping. This gave a great improvement, it was even smoother on take off in 1st gear. However, I pointed out this only masked the problem and did not cure the underlying fault. Northern Truck and Van said they would speak to Fiat on my behalf. Expecting a battle I was surprised to receive a call from Northern Truck and Van within a week to say the parts were on order to fit a lower reverse gear. They had the vehicle for 3 days. Upon collection the clutch take-up seemed a little harsh but this has now become much smoother. Well done Northern Truck and Van who handled everything on my behalf. There is no paperwork or details of what gear ratio has been fitted. However, when I come to resell the vehicle the purchaser can contact Northern and they will confirm the modifications have been carried out. Although I am not planning to sell – the van is great. I hope everyone can have such a smooth outcome as myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Is this a record? Who did you have to sleep with to get that response? Or do you work for Fiat? There is so much inconsistency with the way Fist are dealing with this issue I think they may be employing divide and conquer tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 tonyg3nwl - 2009-08-23 2:55 PM I have just today fired off another email to Peugeot customer services reminding them that it is time to get their finger out and escalate my problem to senior levels and sort out the reversing judder problem. They have had one attempt by changing innards of gearbox and clutch, with limited success, and have had further inspection by their local technician ( who, with respect ,appeared to be only just out of nappies), so I am now requesting that they have a senior expert examine and diagnose the real problems. I await their response. My vehicle is one year old on 1st october Autocruise Stargazer on Boxer base 2.2 engine tonyg3nwl They have replied requesting me to determine the unladen weight using a weighbridge, and to inform them of the serial numbers associated with the gearbox. This involves a visit to dealership scheduled for thursday morning. Watch this space. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 If anyone is sold an X250 with an unrectified gearbox etc, this may be of interest. Honest John in the Telegraph of August 22nd 2009 responded to a reader who had a problem with an electric hood on a convertible car: "The dealer (not the warranty insurer) is liable for having sold you a car with an inherent fault. Within six months of purchase he is obliged by statute and case law either to rectify the fault or take the car back and give you a full refund. See the consumer rights FAQ answer at www.honestjohn.co.uk" The case in point involved a dealer who refused to fix the problem and referred the customer to the warranty insurer, who in turn, denied liability saying the fault was exempt from coverage. Honest John's answer, and the further information in his FAQ would appear to suggest that it is the dealer who sells a motorhome to a customer, not the manufacturer, a warranty company or pixies at the bottom of the dealer's garden who is responsible in law for putting right a defect. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I think everyone knows that to be the case, Bob. However, knowing, it does nothing to resolve the matter. What is the motorhome dealer expected to do? Fiat says the vehicle is performing within its intended parameters, or that there is a defect affecting some vehicles that it will rectify. The motorhome dealer cannot commission new gearboxes to fully rectify the problem, he cannot carry out at will warranty work to the Fiat elements without invalidating his client's remaining warranty. He cannot realistically be expected to take the vehicle back for a full refund, he has no logical ground on which to do so. The case you cite is relatively open and shut (pardon the pun!), the electric hood wouldn't work.In these cases reverse gear works, but its use sometimes causes a vibration, sometimes with ensuing damage. In many cases this does not arise, and in others it only arises under certain circumstances. Fiat are, albeit slowly, making modifications that, on the evidence reduce, or cure, the problem.Try getting a dealer to accept return of the motorhome in return for a refund, and I think you'll find he'll resist. Try taking him to court, and I think you'll find a judge would rule that the demand is unreasonable, because the dealer is restricted in what he can do by the terms of Fiat's warranty, over which he has no control, and that Fiat is, albeit slowly, doing its best (or so Fiat would claim).Honest John simply states the legal position, but there is a wealth of difference between what statute says when simply stated, what it says if you read the whole Act with its provisos and existing case precedent, what would be pleaded in defence, and what might be the outcome, especially when potentially millions of pounds are at stake. It would, nevertheless, be interesting to find out, though I think it would have to be pursued right up to the Lord's to get a definitive ruling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I read elsewhere that in the second quarter this year Fiat made a 179 million euro loss compared with a 646 million euro profit in the same period last year. Perhaps explains their reluctance to accept warranty claims. I hope for their sakes that short term savings do not lead to their long term loss. Also read that the Fiat launch in the US is to be under the Alfa Romeo badge. Will the Fiat brand name/reputation reduce sales??!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diydoolittle Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Posted by Brian Try getting a dealer to accept return of the motorhome in return for a refund, and I think you'll find he'll resist. Try taking him to court, and I think you'll find a judge would rule that the demand is unreasonable, because the dealer is restricted in what he can do by the terms of Fiat's warranty, over which he has no control, and that Fiat is, albeit slowly, doing its best (or so Fiat would claim). The judge wouldn't give a toss what the dealer is restricted to in terms of warranty as it is addition to your Statutory Rights it does not replace them. The sale of goods act applies, the vehicle is not free from defects and they have not repaired it in a reasonable time. The dealer can not wangle out of this regardless of warranty, he sold it, he puts it right!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 The dealer has expressed great concern about the vehicle that I have and despite several representations from myself trying to trade it they are unwilling to trade it due to the difficulties that I am experiencing. So yes there is a problem trading. Would you buy a vehicle that burns in reverse and shakes the Sh1t out of itself on a hill. or a vehicle which cannot access camping sites as it's rear end catches on the road. Well that basically sums up mine. Other than that if I could drive my vehicle on flat motorways with no ramps and did not stop anywhere there is a posibilty I might have to reverse then this would be the ideal vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 moyne - 2009-08-26 10:01 PM The dealer has expressed great concern about the vehicle that I have and despite several representations from myself trying to trade it they are unwilling to trade it due to the difficulties that I am experiencing. So yes there is a problem trading. Would you buy a vehicle that burns in reverse and shakes the Sh1t out of itself on a hill. or a vehicle which cannot access camping sites as it's rear end catches on the road. Well that basically sums up mine. Other than that if I could drive my vehicle on flat motorways with no ramps and did not stop anywhere there is a posibilty I might have to reverse then this would be the ideal vehicle. Gerard the problem with your van would appear to not just be the Fiat part and their is certainly no indications that being Fiat based is a problem for future values. Why not just try another dealer if you wish to change it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 diydoolittle - 2009-08-26 7:44 PM Posted by Brian Try getting a dealer to accept return of the motorhome in return for a refund, and I think you'll find he'll resist. Try taking him to court, and I think you'll find a judge would rule that the demand is unreasonable, because the dealer is restricted in what he can do by the terms of Fiat's warranty, over which he has no control, and that Fiat is, albeit slowly, doing its best (or so Fiat would claim). The judge wouldn't give a toss what the dealer is restricted to in terms of warranty as it is addition to your Statutory Rights it does not replace them. The sale of goods act applies, the vehicle is not free from defects and they have not repaired it in a reasonable time. The dealer can not wangle out of this regardless of warranty, he sold it, he puts it right!!! Oh if only things were this simple. As Brian has said dealer will resist you take him to court in twelve months or so you may get a decision in your favour, but likely not, what do you do in the meantime, for dealer to check claim out you must leave it with him so you do not have use of van for possibly a long period, few will take a chance on this. You have to prove a fault before you can insist on a refund, this will be expensive with opinion of 'experts' being required, which will also be costly. What exactly is the fault, it is not clear cut. If it is the 2.3 six speed their is a solution to this has it been done, if not no case and so on. If it is 2.2 five speed or 3.0 Fiat say no fault is present, who is right? No if anyone thinks taking a vibrating van back to dealer and saying give me my money back is going to work they probably do believe in Fairies at the bottom of their garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 Several owners have rejected their vehicles successfully, but to a man, as Henry says, they have had a load of hassle, spent quite a lot of cash, and it took months without the use of the vehicle. All were owners of the 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats, where in truth because Fiat have admitted a defect, the dealers were up a gum tree and knew it. But they still didn't give in easily. The truth is that Fiat are in effect insulated from their incompetence by our legal system. Something else Gerard needs to do is get hold of a copy of the Contruction and Use Regs, and the relevant European amendment, and carefully measure if the overhang is within the complex and confusing rules. It used to be a simple 60% here, but European rules concern themselves with the turning circle, and the amount of 'swing' at the rear when the vehicle in on full lock. In use it seems that even as much as 70% can fall within the rules. But if the overhang is beyond the amended Con and Use regs then he may have an easier route. A very big maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icdsun Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Moyne On another forum Johns Cross Motorhomes has stated that they are very happy to take any x250 in part ex, this may not be an option for you but it may help you with your present issue with dealer I have had all the mods and whilst not 100% it is a marked improvement, mine juddered on level ground and smoked on any decent incline, levelling blocks were abandoned in a swirl of smoke, wet grass big no no Hope it works out for you Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 the problem with your van would appear to not just be the Fiat part and their is certainly no indications that being Fiat based is a problem for future values. Why not just try another dealer if you wish to change it? I am in the market for a new or nearly new Motorhome, after 5 years of rebuilding and refurbishing an Old classic Autosleeper. I would not even consider a post 2006 Sevel based van, after all of the problems, to so many people, I decided I didn't want to become another Victim of this 'Characteristic' of these vehicles. Now many on this thread are saying that theirs is not affected, the only way to find out would be to back it up a steep hill during an extended test drive, how many sellers would be willing to allow that ?? to say that sales of X250's are unaffected is not correct, I'm not going to buy one.....so, thats one sale down. For me it's got to be a Ford, Renault, VW, Mercedes or an Iveco anything BUT an X250. (which is a shame because like lemmings charging over a cliff, most coverters are still using them, some exclusively,Fix or No Fix.) and after a short test drive, they seem to be good going fowards, the one I tested shuddered in reverse. 8-) 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diydoolittle Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 rupert123 - 2009-08-26 10:47 PM Oh if only things were this simple. As Brian has said dealer will resist you take him to court in twelve months or so you may get a decision in your favour, but likely not, what do you do in the meantime, for dealer to check claim out you must leave it with him so you do not have use of van for possibly a long period, few will take a chance on this. You have to prove a fault before you can insist on a refund, this will be expensive with opinion of 'experts' being required, which will also be costly. What exactly is the fault, it is not clear cut. If it is the 2.3 six speed their is a solution to this has it been done, if not no case and so on. If it is 2.2 five speed or 3.0 Fiat say no fault is present, who is right? No if anyone thinks taking a vibrating van back to dealer and saying give me my money back is going to work they probably do believe in Fairies at the bottom of their garden. You seem to be confusing your legal rights with the legal process!! The law on Sale of Goods is clear, the process to enforce them however is not! You absolutely DO NOT have to leave your vehicle with the dealer, however you must not use it. Potentially for a lengthy period in which you fight your corner. You DO NOT have to prove the fault if you reject the vehicle. You have to state which part of the Sale of Goods Act the dealer has breached. In the first 6 months, the fault is deemed to have been there from the start and it is up to the Dealer to prove it is not a fault. You would need evidence to back up your claim. A forensic investigator possibly the best bet. You will have to spend a lot of money on legal fees unless your home insurance etc covers it, many will. No one says it will be easy to do, but it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Hunt Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I am looking to buy a new van conversion too and would have done so already this year if not for the problem with the Fiat base vehicle. There is a considerable cost and small space penalty with the Merc/VW as a base vehicle and with the VAT due to return to its previous level this makes mypurchase horizon even more precarious. However I will not be buying a Fiat either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 diydoolittle - 2009-08-27 6:51 PM rupert123 - 2009-08-26 10:47 PM Oh if only things were this simple. As Brian has said dealer will resist you take him to court in twelve months or so you may get a decision in your favour, but likely not, what do you do in the meantime, for dealer to check claim out you must leave it with him so you do not have use of van for possibly a long period, few will take a chance on this. You have to prove a fault before you can insist on a refund, this will be expensive with opinion of 'experts' being required, which will also be costly. What exactly is the fault, it is not clear cut. If it is the 2.3 six speed their is a solution to this has it been done, if not no case and so on. If it is 2.2 five speed or 3.0 Fiat say no fault is present, who is right? No if anyone thinks taking a vibrating van back to dealer and saying give me my money back is going to work they probably do believe in Fairies at the bottom of their garden. You seem to be confusing your legal rights with the legal process!! The law on Sale of Goods is clear, the process to enforce them however is not! You absolutely DO NOT have to leave your vehicle with the dealer, however you must not use it. Potentially for a lengthy period in which you fight your corner. You DO NOT have to prove the fault if you reject the vehicle. You have to state which part of the Sale of Goods Act the dealer has breached. In the first 6 months, the fault is deemed to have been there from the start and it is up to the Dealer to prove it is not a fault. You would need evidence to back up your claim. A forensic investigator possibly the best bet. You will have to spend a lot of money on legal fees unless your home insurance etc covers it, many will. No one says it will be easy to do, but it can be done. If you do not leave it with him how are you rejecting it? As to the rest you seem to be agreeing with me, do not understand your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 diydoolittle - 2009-08-27 6:51 PM rupert123 - 2009-08-26 10:47 PM Oh if only things were this simple. As Brian has said dealer will resist you take him to court in twelve months or so you may get a decision in your favour, but likely not, what do you do in the meantime, for dealer to check claim out you must leave it with him so you do not have use of van for possibly a long period, few will take a chance on this. You have to prove a fault before you can insist on a refund, this will be expensive with opinion of 'experts' being required, which will also be costly. What exactly is the fault, it is not clear cut. If it is the 2.3 six speed their is a solution to this has it been done, if not no case and so on. If it is 2.2 five speed or 3.0 Fiat say no fault is present, who is right? No if anyone thinks taking a vibrating van back to dealer and saying give me my money back is going to work they probably do believe in Fairies at the bottom of their garden. You seem to be confusing your legal rights with the legal process!! The law on Sale of Goods is clear, the process to enforce them however is not! You absolutely DO NOT have to leave your vehicle with the dealer, however you must not use it. Potentially for a lengthy period in which you fight your corner. You DO NOT have to prove the fault if you reject the vehicle. You have to state which part of the Sale of Goods Act the dealer has breached. In the first 6 months, the fault is deemed to have been there from the start and it is up to the Dealer to prove it is not a fault. You would need evidence to back up your claim. A forensic investigator possibly the best bet. You will have to spend a lot of money on legal fees unless your home insurance etc covers it, many will. No one says it will be easy to do, but it can be done. If you do not leave it with him how are you rejecting it? As to the rest you seem to be agreeing with me, do not understand your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Sorry double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 If you try and replicate the fault on the dealer's forecourt this might not work as the judder seems to be at its worst when the vehicle is fully loaded. So don't be fooled when a dealer says there is no problem; there clearly is so any potential purchasers should opt for a different base vehicle. What is astounding is why the motorhome manufactureres are continuing to use Fiat in the knowledge that the vehicle is defective. Its little short of scandalous but there are still people out there who are buying these vehicles in the knowledge that there is an integral fault. Its crazy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Neil, I can understand your concern with regard to price premium for non Fiat, but do you not wonder why some vehicles cost more ?. If you have to sell a lesser quality product or a faulty one then it has to be cheaper - stands to reason ? There is no point in buying something that you will not be happy with, I bought Fiat based, kept it a few months then bought Ford based motorhome, and each time I use it, it is a joy - What price happiness. Life is finite - enjoy it while you can. Good luck in your choice - have you considered an ex demonstrator model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diydoolittle Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 rupert123 - 2009-08-27 10:33 PM diydoolittle - 2009-08-27 6:51 PM rupert123 - 2009-08-26 10:47 PM Oh if only things were this simple. As Brian has said dealer will resist you take him to court in twelve months or so you may get a decision in your favour, but likely not, what do you do in the meantime, for dealer to check claim out you must leave it with him so you do not have use of van for possibly a long period, few will take a chance on this. You have to prove a fault before you can insist on a refund, this will be expensive with opinion of 'experts' being required, which will also be costly. What exactly is the fault, it is not clear cut. If it is the 2.3 six speed their is a solution to this has it been done, if not no case and so on. If it is 2.2 five speed or 3.0 Fiat say no fault is present, who is right? No if anyone thinks taking a vibrating van back to dealer and saying give me my money back is going to work they probably do believe in Fairies at the bottom of their garden. You seem to be confusing your legal rights with the legal process!! The law on Sale of Goods is clear, the process to enforce them however is not! You absolutely DO NOT have to leave your vehicle with the dealer, however you must not use it. Potentially for a lengthy period in which you fight your corner. You DO NOT have to prove the fault if you reject the vehicle. You have to state which part of the Sale of Goods Act the dealer has breached. In the first 6 months, the fault is deemed to have been there from the start and it is up to the Dealer to prove it is not a fault. You would need evidence to back up your claim. A forensic investigator possibly the best bet. You will have to spend a lot of money on legal fees unless your home insurance etc covers it, many will. No one says it will be easy to do, but it can be done. If you do not leave it with him how are you rejecting it? As to the rest you seem to be agreeing with me, do not understand your post. Sorry you don't understand my post, maybe I should have separated it into the bits which essential are correct and the bits which are misinformation. Rejecting a vehicle is essentially a paper exercise in law, you retain ownership of the vehicle until/or if the legal case is resolved. You could be in difficulty if you dump vehicle with dealer as they could go bust. Also you need to keep up the insurance tax etc. The vehicle does not become the dealers problem just by rejecting it. The rest of my post was agreeing with some of the points raised by you and others, vis a vis that it is an expensive and protracted business. The basis for rejection in legal terms is simple, how you win is not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-08-27 11:58 AM Several owners have rejected their vehicles successfully, but to a man, as Henry says, they have had a load of hassle, spent quite a lot of cash, and it took months without the use of the vehicle. All were owners of the 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats, where in truth because Fiat have admitted a defect, the dealers were up a gum tree and knew it. But they still didn't give in easily. As Andy has said "it cost a lot to reject the vehicle. So why not put the projected reject money to your vehicle and PX it somewhere?. I know that it is a cop out, the dealer gets let off and having to say that " to your knowledge there are no faults with your vehicle", which is not the same as saying there are no faults. After all who are you as a non expert in a position to go against Fiat's statements of the X250's. Those that still buy or have no problems with Fiat X250's, well good luck to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Rayjsj - 2009-08-27 6:00 PM the problem with your van would appear to not just be the Fiat part and their is certainly no indications that being Fiat based is a problem for future values. Why not just try another dealer if you wish to change it? I am in the market for a new or nearly new Motorhome, after 5 years of rebuilding and refurbishing an Old classic Autosleeper. I would not even consider a post 2006 Sevel based van, after all of the problems, to so many people, I decided I didn't want to become another Victim of this 'Characteristic' of these vehicles. Now many on this thread are saying that theirs is not affected, the only way to find out would be to back it up a steep hill during an extended test drive, how many sellers would be willing to allow that ?? to say that sales of X250's are unaffected is not correct, I'm not going to buy one.....so, thats one sale down. For me it's got to be a Ford, Renault, VW, Mercedes or an Iveco anything BUT an X250. (which is a shame because like lemmings charging over a cliff, most coverters are still using them, some exclusively,Fix or No Fix.) and after a short test drive, they seem to be good going fowards, the one I tested shuddered in reverse. 8-) 8-) In the latest (September) issue of MMM there is a roundup of new models for 2010. Both Burstner and Hymer are dropping Ford Transit base vehicles in preference of the Fiat Ducato. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 All I can say is that it is totally and utterly disigenuous of those converters building motorhomes on faulty vehicles. Companies such as Swift monitor these forums but still totally diregard everything that is said by persistently using Fiat and its derivatives. Clearly they feel that the great British public will continue to buy these faulty products when common sense dictates the precise opposite. And it would seem they are right. I've spoken to quite a few people who have bought new Fiat's. Every single one of them say that their purchasing decisions were made on layout, quality of conversion and price in mostly that order. All have said the Fiat is a great vehicle to drive and its only when pressed do they concede that there is a problem going backwards. All knew about the judder issue but bought the vehicle anyway. I must be on a different planet because to spend up to £50K on a vehicle that is almost certainly bound to give grief is to my mind totally and utterly crazy. I read on this and other forums people looking to buy such and such a van, and despite all the publicity, their options appear to be Fiat based. Its madness!!!! If buyers totally disregard the make of the base vehicle then its no wonder that converters continue to use Fiat. I'm looking for a panel van based on a Renault and the choice is so limited I've decided to stick with my ageing but reliable Ford. Why don't converters and customers wake up and boycot Sevel ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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