eric hobson Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I tow my car behind my motorhome. Both the car and the motorhome are insured comprehensive, but whilst being towed I am covered third party for the car by my motorhome insurers. I am only covered once again by my car insurers third party. In essence my car insurers are insuring nothing whilst the car is being towed. If you tow a caravan with a car, both are equally insured. What is the difference? I have contacted several insurers but the answer is always the same. Are there any insurers out there who will insure my car comprehensive whilst being towed? As there are many people towing cars, both in the UK and abroad are they blissfully unaware they are not covered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Both are vehicle are with Saga, no problem :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 You may find this thread helps http://tinyurl.com/bkbwxoYour statement that if you tow a caravan with a car both are equally insured seems potentially incorrect. Your car, and the third party risk of your caravan, is insured under your car insurance - provided the caravan is attached to the car. Damage to, or theft of, your caravan, while being towed (or while attached to the car) is only covered if you have separately insured the caravan. However, the cover on each could not, accurately, be described as equal. The difference is that you car, unlike a caravan, is designed to be moved under its own motive power and standard car insurance is based around this use. When your car becomes a trailer, or is being carried on a trailer, it is moving, but is not under its own motive power. That changes the risk profile, and standard car insurance premium does not cover these new risks.The question of the extent to which car insurance covers a towed car (however it is towed) is raised in the linked string, but no-one has so far answered the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric hobson Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 The point I was making re: car towing a caravan was that if both were insured then all risks are covered. At the moment if I have an accident which is my fault my car is not covered although I pay for comprehensive insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Eric a few years ago I towed a car (actually on an A-frame) and was covered comprehensively whilst the car was on tow. This was with Fortis and then I changed to Comfort and was still covered. I had it in writing from both insurers so you could contact them and see if the same applies now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymer634 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Hi, I've just insured my a-framed Aygo with NFU and the covering letter with the quote stated that full cover was maintained when a-framed or trailered. The cover also included trailer cover up to £1000. The cover was better than with Comfort for the same price and it was also easy to insure pro rata for 6 months in order to move the renewal date to be convenient for trips abroad. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Eric, I hope you don't mind my using your thread to ask for some advice... I think the same people interested in the insurance aspect may learn something from any answers given. After faffing about for ages I have decided to buy either a Smart car or small Mitsubishi to tow behind my van but on the type of bracket where the back wheels are on the road. a) where is the best place to go for the towing apparatus without damage to the van? Heard several horror stories b) do you pay extra on the sites for your car, as there are usually signs up saying only one vehicle per pitch ...... but as you say ... people tow caravans and why different rules? c) when you take out the car insurance do you have to state you will be towing it, in order for the insurance to be valid? d) Do you find it difficult to tow when it is windy? :-( Again, sorry for butting in but the search engine brought your thread up. Joy PS: Brian, my Vista won't let me bring that site up you have named. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Joy, can't see why Vista should block it, it is OK on mine (Vista Business). Maybe your IE security settings are set too high?I'm uneasy about what you are describing, this "type of bracket where the back wheels are on the road." This sounds very much like the dreaded unbraked A frame, or dolly, use of which is illegal except for vehicle recovery at low speeds over very short distances. If it is - don't go there!! If, on the other hand, it is a fixed bracket on the rear of your van, I have no idea of the legality, but would strongly suspect neither the chassis, nor the rear axle, could take the load from the front wheels of the car.Can you explain a bit more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Hi Brian, I don't really know what I'm talking about. But when I was away last week, the couple parked next to me drove up in their motorhome with a Smart car behind and only it's back wheels were on the road, the front lifted up. I asked how they found it for towing and they said they had just come back from six weeks in Spain and it was great. I thought that would be ideal for me as I could still use the car to get mum or dad to hospital and shops etc. (However, since then realised that my daughter's Diahatsu Move Plus - which I gave to her free - is parked on the front drive and never used as she is moved away so I can use that) Can you tell me what type of towing bracket to have fitted please, Brian, and will they charge me extra on the sites and is it easy to tow with. Thank you. Apologies Eric, didn't mean to hijack the thread :$ Joy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Roon A few answers I can contribute to: a) where is the best place to go for the towing apparatus without damage to the van? Heard several horror stories Like Brian I don't like the sound of this and those people did very well to get away with it in Spain particularly and I'm fairly sure they are illegal even in England and definitely in France too. I can't imagine that all that bumping just of the rear axle would do the car any good either. In any case did you try lifting the towing gear? A-frames are actually quite heavy and difficult to manhandle onto the towbar - it took two of us even after changing to a lighter model because of my husband's illness. It stowed in the small boot easily but gave you a hernia getting it there! b: I think the answer to this is it depends on the site. When we towed I don't remember this being a problem but more and more sites are charging now. c) when you take out the car insurance do you have to state you will be towing it, in order for the insurance to be valid? Answer: definitely yes otherwise you will only have third party cover. Some insurance companies cover towed cars fully comprehensively - try to look at Brian's link for my posts. d: Answer - I never found a problem with the wind but a small car is difficult to see in rear mirrors. We tied coloured netting on the car's aerial (as the French do for weddings) until someone stole it! Good luck whatever you decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 ROON - 2009-03-28 9:08 AM Hi Brian, I don't really know what I'm talking about.Problem is, Joy, in truth, and in the nicest possible way, neither do I! :-) What we all need to know is not what was happening to the rear wheels of the towed car, but what the front wheels were actually being carried on. If, as I suspect, they were merely secured to a wheeled platform of some kind, and there was no braking arranged for the car wheels, the device was (unless it is something new or purpose made that meets trailer requirements), almost certainly a "dolly" and, like Patricia, I'm amazed they hadn't been stopped and fined in France or Spain, or stopped and charged for using it in UK, and made to drive the car independently. Simply stated, use of such devices in this way is, so far as I am aware, illegal throughout Europe: it is definitely illegal in UK. If, on the other hand, the front wheels were supported on an articulated platform extension of the motorhome chassis, in the same way some AA/RAC recovery vehicles tow broken down cars, I do not know what the legal position would be, but suspect this, too, would be illegal. Can you tell me what type of towing bracket to have fitted please, Brian, and will they charge me extra on the sites and is it easy to tow with. Thank you. Apologies Eric, didn't mean to hijack the thread :$ Joy Echoing Joy's apology to Eric for the hi-jack, but continuing to try to answer her question, and starting at the beginning, the "towing bracket" is the bit that is attached to the motorhome chassis to enable it to tow. To this is (usually) fixed a "tow ball", to which anything that is being towed is attached. You will need one of each to be attached to your van. For anyone to say whose bracket to get, you'll need to add to your van description saying which Peugeot model and year is your base vehicle, and which model Eldiss sits on it. Some proprietary brackets may fit, or you may have to get a purpose made bracket. However, before you do either, check what the permissible Gross Train Weight(GTW) is for your van, and what its Actual Laden Weight(ALW) is. What you can legally tow, all other considerations excepted, is the difference between the two figures. If you look on the VIN plate on your vehicle, the weight numbered 4, or in field 4, will be the GTW. For the ALW, you need to fully load the van as for normal use, visit a weighbridge, and get a ticket showing its weight with you, and any other passengers, all on board. While doing this, it would be wise to get the axle weights as well. Explain to the operator that you want the weight of the whole van, and then just the rear axle (just drive forward until the front wheels are off the platform). If he does it right, the machine will deduct the rear axle weight from the total weight, so calculating the front axle load, and print the lot on the ticket. From these you can calculate how heavy a trailer you can actually tow, but also, how much weight (if any :-)) you can add to the rear axle to accommodate the tow bracket, and the essential noseweight (or drawbar down force) from the trailer (for a two wheeled trailer 7% of its actual gross weight is recommended: less than this and it is liable to become unstable, much more, and it will probably overload the tow bracket). You will need to correct the net figures, to take account of the leverage on the rear axle due to the overhang of these loads. However, I would say somewhere in the region of 150Kg combined will be added to the rear axle by bracket, ball, and drawbar downforce.Next, assuming the results of the above indicate you can tow a trailer of around, I would suggest, 1,000Kg, consider how you will actually tow your car. You will need either a "braked A frame", the legality of which is unclear both here and in Europe, or some kind of trailer on which to park, and secure, your car. Either will attach to the towball via a drawbar. In the case of the A frame the frame itself is, in effect, just a drawbar. Half its self-weight will fall on the towball. In the case of a trailer, the drawbar is the forward extension of the trailer, that carries the tow-hitch, which in turn connects it to the towball. The trailer is the only universally accepted, legal, solution. Hope this explains all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 As an additional check towing weights also depend on when Roon passed her driving licence. If after Jan (?)1997 then I believe the maximum train weight is 3500kg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Patricia - 2009-03-28 1:16 PM As an additional check towing weights also depend on when Roon passed her driving licence. If after Jan (?)1997 then I believe the maximum train weight is 3500kg. True, Patricia. I forgot that bit!Hope this may help: I believe it is still current, but it should be checked in lieu of being relied upon.There are critical differences between what you can legally tow, and what is legal as a tow vehicle/trailer combination. These depend upon the categories of vehicles for which your licence is valid and, in some cases, when you passed your test. I will attempt to set these out briefly and clearly, as relevant to towing with motorhomes. There are also two useful links setting out the UK, and European, driving licence requirements. They are here: http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/leaflets/inf30.pdf, and here http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31991L0439:EN:HTMLFirstly, provided you are under 70 years of age, if you passed your driving test before 1 January 1997, you are (usually) entitled to drive any combination of category B, B+E, C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E, up to a combined MAM limit of 8,250Kg, subject to age and any restrictions affecting the vehicles themselves, until expiry of your present licence (usually your 70th birthday).The relevant vehicle categories will be shown on your licence. What they mean, is:B A vehicle with a MAM [Maximum Allowable Mass] up to 3,500Kg. Under this category, you may tow a trailer with a MAM (note, not ALW[Actual Laden Weight]) up to 750Kg: also, you may tow a trailer with a MAM greater than 750Kg provided that i) the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the ULW [unladen Weight] of the tow vehicle and ii) the sum of trailer MAM + tow vehicle MAM does not exceed 3,500Kg. In the case of i) or ii) 3,500Kg is an absolute limit.B+E A vehicle with a MAM up to 3,500Kg, plus a trailer with a MAM exceeding 750Kg, or exceeding the ULW of the tow vehicle. Oddly, there is no upper weight limit for the trailer. (In practise, this will be restricted by the tow vehicle GTW [Gross Train Weight] or trailer MAM) However, if you passed your test after 1 January 1997, you will need to take an additional test to get B+E.C1 A vehicle with a MAM between 3,500Kg and 7,500Kg, which may tow a trailer with MAM up to 750Kg. Unless you hold C1+E, both the 7,500Kg and the 750Kg are absolute limits. No offsetting between them is permissible.C1+E For those with pre 1 January 1997 driving licences: a vehicle with a MAM between 3,500Kg and 7,500Kg, towing a trailer with MAM exceeding 750Kg provided that i) the sum of trailer MAM and tow vehicle MAM does not exceed 8,250Kg, and ii) that the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the ULW of the towing vehicle. For those with post 1 January 1997 licences, or who have upgraded pre 1 January 1997 licences by taking an additional test: a vehicle with a MAM between 3,500Kg and 7,500Kg, towing a trailer with MAM exceeding 750Kg provided that i) the sum of trailer MAM and tow vehicle MAM does not exceed 12,000Kg and ii) the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the ULW of the tow vehicle.There one further thing that has not been mentioned. If the MAM (but note, not its ALW) of the trailer exceeds 750Kg (which Joy's almost certainly will whichever way it is hitched) it must have brakes that work in conjunction with the tow vehicle brakes, and that permit the trailer to be reversed without any further intervention by the tow vehicle driver or an assistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Wow. Thanks Brian. I will print that off and read through it carefully so I can understand it. However, Patricia, thanks for the advice about the weight of an A frame. I wanted something to make me not so alone when I go away, so I can drive to local villages, castles, etc., but it looks as though that will certainly be a problem. I am struggling lifting as it is with all that there is to do. :-( Joy x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Yes Roon many is the time that I wished I had muscles like a man! Why these young women insist on saying they are equal to men is totally beyond me. We might be as intelligent, and perhaps sometimes more, do many things as well as or better and have muscles but are they in the right place? I fear not! Call me old-fashioned (and I am!) but I still enjoy little courtesies from men. I also enjoy watching a man proving his strength when working on my motorhome or car and getting all dirty; very satisfying as I hate getting my hands oily! However, I must admit it is very frustrating at times when I know how to repair something but cannot physically do it, especially when the man doesn't have a clue! Just have to bite my tongue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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