euroserv Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 When I read Bill's post last night I had just enjoyed a couple of pints of ale and my initial reaction was to laugh and then I thought 'he is very brave!' In the cold light of day I have realised how insulting to many contributors and owners of the affected vehicles this message was. As far as I can see, this forum is where people share information and experiences for the better good of the motor caravan community. I have enjoyed reading the various threads and have contributed where I thought that my input would be beneficial. I hope that the spirit of the forum will not be damaged by this unnecessarily harsh opinion because that would be a terrible shame. As my name was mentioned I should like to make clear my feelings on the subject of X250 vehicles; In the main, they make great vans. By that I mean goods delivery vans. If the profile of my customers required them to frequently reverse up hills while fully loaded I would have stopped buying them a long time ago but because they mostly go forwards and are fully loaded only part of the time they continue to be not only suitable but very apt for the job. We have problems with EGR valves and throttle bodies that most camper users will never encounter, we have had a lot of problems with spare wheel carriers that, again will not affect most of you. If I was in the market for a camper van I would not buy a current model X250. I would wait until the problem has gone away with the introduction of new engines and gearboxes which will happen before the end of this year. I would not settle for the 2.2 Ford/PSA engine because I don't like it at all, I don't run any Fords any more and I doubt that I will again. I see enough of them in our workshop to know that they are just not right for my business but I suspect they will be absolutely fine for the work that you do with them. My advice to anyone considering buying one of the many new Fiat campers that are un-modified and languishing at the various dealers around the country is to steer clear. The dealers and coachbuilders have been aware of the problem for over a year and they deserve to either get stuck with these vehicles or be responsible for getting them modified but you would certainly need your head examining if you intended to buy one and 'take your chances'! Of the current modifications.. I think that for most panel van conversions and the lighter of the coachbuilts you will probably be happy with the result as long as you don't spend too much time deliberately torturing the transmission. For the heavier vehicles I doubt that you will ever get a completely satisfactory solution. At the risk of being contentious I would suggest that a front wheel drive camper of the proportions that I often see in my workshops is a deliberate attempt to defy the laws of physics and is just plain wrong. Because you bought them in the past, and people continue to build them, they have to guarantee that they are suitable for the job. I am talking about the people that you purchase the vehicle from, and the coachbuilders that build them, not Fiat. Fiat do themselves no favours by over egging your expectations by extolling the virtues of their chassis but it is the people that design the bodywork that sits on it that have failed you and that is who you purchased it from after all. Finally, I think that if you have a problem, and in the fullness of time you get it modified and have a fair crack at enjoying your purchase then you will almost certainly have a very desirable vehicle to sell when the time comes. As long as you can prove that the work has been done, and I thoroughly recommend badgering your dealer for a copy of the warranty documents and photos of the parts (because let's face it; it's your damn vehicle!) then you should be just fine. I take off my hat to the fearless Andy Stothert and remain at your disposal for as long as we all remain civilised. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Well said Nick - a balanced view as ever - long may your Fiats run without too many problems - well forwards anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Good post Nick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mondo Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Andy I like your style sir,both barrels and a follow up shot,very well said,my van fortunately does not suffer with the judder(as yet)Eldiss Autoquest 140 2.2 5 speed I've had it into the local Peugeot dealers and had some recall work done I asked about this gearbox trouble but to say the least they were non commital so if it does manifest itself it will be returned to be looked at you can bet on that!!. As for my avatar (The soldier) some one else thought he was cute I have it as being an ex soldier(22years man and boy) it's my tribute to those boys still beating the boogie in all theatres of the world ...NUFF SAID Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DESCO Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Very well said Nic, A very well balanced post Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 J9withdogs - 2009-03-30 1:01 PM ...and I'm waiting for Donna Miller to notice her description: "another figures as a pouting pavement tart" :$ *-) :D Yes, I have just read it. Pavement tart indeed, cheeky b4stard, I've never worked the pavements. :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Looks like a very soft pavement to me :D ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 After Insulting just about everyone it's my guess that 'Bill Loneskie' only ever intended to do one post, he (or they) are getting worried that M/home sales are down (not suprising in a recession) especially X250 based ones (not suprising considering they have a 'Suspect' reversing problem). And are getting 'jittery' about residual value of their van(s). You are right though,Bill , I don't own one, nor will I consider getting one (X250 based anyway) until Fiat have retro-fitted 'the fix' to all who need It. and i can SEE the proof when i turn up to View and Test the van. :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 May I try to give a reply to Frank McAuley regarding the Ford Transit. Ours is a 2.2 litre 130PS FWD Mk 7 Transit with the 5 speed box. It is prone to "stall" on drive away.This tendency was more pronounced when new and, either due to "bedding in" or adaptation of technique, is now considerably reduced, but persists.The relevant factors are:Highish first and reverse gears.A clutch with very little "take up" tolerance. Not rough, but difficult to engage gently in a controlled way.A "drive by wire" accelerator that offers little fine control of engine speed at low revs.An electronic cut off that shuts the engine down if the revs fall below 600 rpm.Under normal driving the above combination presents little difficulty. In slow moving, uphill, traffic, however, when you want to ease gently forward with the flow, if the abrupt clutch causes the engine revs to drop below the 600 rpm threshold (I suspect 599 is about enough!) the engine just shuts down. It does not truly stall, it simply switches off as though the ignition key had been turned. It can be re-started immediately thereafter without protest, or additional measures. The same combination of factors leads to the same result when siting, if a tree root or other unevenness in the ground is encountered when trying to manoeuvre quietly and gently among the usual hazards. It is annoying, and invariably strikes when attention has wandered. One gets used to it, and learns to work around it (usually by quickly dipping the clutch rather than trying to solicit more power), but it is an even present source of bad language!However, in all other respects the van is a pleasure to drive, being smooth, quiet, lively, powerful and having, for a commercial vehicle, a reasonably smooth ride. I am unaware of any specific problem with the gearbox, saving the above slightly high first and reverse ratios. The gear change is light and quite smooth and, at 10,000 miles, both engine and box are still improving nicely.Our last van was based on the previous version Fiat Ducato, which was relatively rougher and noisier, but had no rev related cut off, a wonderfully smooth clutch, and a very progressive accelerator. One could just ease the clutch in at idle speed, and then power away. It was a 2.8 JTD with (supposedly) 146HP (LHD engine option not available in UK). I can add that 130 of Henry Ford's cow ponies are more than equal to 146 of the Italian variety, and consume oats at slightly below 30 MPG whereas the Italian 'osses ate at just under 25MPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBS Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Is 'Bill Loneskie' a pseudonym for 'Billy No Mates'? :-S Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 SBS - 2009-03-30 11:02 PM Is 'Bill Loneskie' a pseudonym for 'Billy No Mates'? :-S MikeAS he said himself, there are some nasty people on here. What a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 peter - 2009-03-30 11:31 PM SBS - 2009-03-30 11:02 PM Is 'Bill Loneskie' a pseudonym for 'Billy No Mates'? :-S MikeAS he said himself, there are some nasty people on here. What a shame. Get a life! There is a difference between a quip and no sense of humour. It would be a very dull site if we only droned on about bits about engines. If you consider the remark offensive - you'll really be offended by me. Hey ho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Tyou Brian. I think it's Henry Ford for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Frank, whilst Brian is correct in all he says, in my opinion if you were a white van man driving the transit everyday you would be used to the high first and not stall it. I don’t use my van much and when I do, I occasionally stall it but get used to it after a while.........At least you don’t have that nagging doubt that the transmission MIGHT fail that x250 ownership brings.*-) The problem is that the Fiat is the most popular chassis, and I hope they get it sorted, as the van I want is on a x250 but I wont even think about it until 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 If you find in 1st gear you are sometimes stalling, it is worth checking your brakes, most likely rear, are not binding on. Stop on a gentle slope, one you reckon you just creep/roll forward gently on. Press the foot brake hard (just normal hard not excssively), release footbrake and check you roll forward. If you do not then brakes may be binding. It is quite common on vehicles if not used very often and damp has got into the piston area of the wheel cylinders. It is a possibility and one to eliminate before blaming the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 for what its worth its the 1st of april tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 pagey - 2009-03-31 2:51 PM for what its worth its the 1st of april tomorrow Your kidding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Norma - 2009-03-31 9:47 AM peter - 2009-03-30 11:31 PM SBS - 2009-03-30 11:02 PM Is 'Bill Loneskie' a pseudonym for 'Billy No Mates'? :-S MikeAS he said himself, there are some nasty people on here. What a shame. Get a life! There is a difference between a quip and no sense of humour. It would be a very dull site if we only droned on about bits about engines. If you consider the remark offensive - you'll really be offended by me. Hey honot really, I just think you probably have nothing constructive to add to this thread. So you make silly remarks. But if it makes you happy, please continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 pagey - 2009-03-31 2:51 PM for what its worth its the 1st of april tomorrow Wouldn't you just love a set of these alloys for the van! http://www.bmweducation.co.uk/coFacts/linkDocs/caninerepellent.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loneskie Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 To restate my argument in simple terms. I have covered 21,000 miles within Scotland in my FIAT Ducato 2.3 low-profile on every type of road and the van has proved to be completely reliable. Anyone reading the postings within the forum started by Andy Stothert would think that Ducato gearbox or clutch failure is inevitable (”kills gearboxes” Andy writes). This is just not true. Am I not entitled to express the opposite view - that a purchaser is likely to find that the Ducato will run and run. Yes there is a vibration problem when reversing uphill but I find this an irritant rather than the major problem which the merchants of automotive doom would have us believe. I had hoped that I would be able to open a thread where satisfied FIAT owners would be able to communicate in a rational manner, but the “experts” with their usual aggression and inappropriate language have hijacked it for even more anti-Fiat tripe and personal attacks which are quite unnecessary. It is headed FIAT Ducato For Ever, so why post there if you don’t agree, or don’t even own a FIAT ? Andy seems an angry man but I do think he should stop abusing people who do not agree with him. In a personal email to me today he states “You obviously haven't got the mental facility to assimilate the technicalities of this issue “ which is unfair, especially as he knows that I have cancer, and people in that situation do not appreciate personal abuse. He does seem to enjoy quite a lot of support in this forum so I suppose it is no use saying that FIAT should be congratulated for coming up with a fix for our affected vehicles and this has nothing whatsoever to do with Andy Stothert, who in a previous email stated that he wished to “totally undermine FIAT’s position in the market”. Would it be possible for Andy and his associates to leave this thread for folk who actually enjoy driving their vans or am I asking too much ? After all how can you reason with people who are unreasonable ? Or as my old Latin master who have said “Fiat justica, ruat coleum!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Restating your own experience in plain unoffensive and uninsulting terms is fine Bill but why then spoil it by going back on the rampage? The whole point about a Forum (Roman or Latin word for meeting place I believe?) is that it is a meeting place where people can hold a conversation during which several differing points of view will arise, so for you to expect everyone who posts on 'your' topic to agree with you is quite unrealistic - and not what a forum is about. I don't blame Andy for being angry. He more that anyone else has fought this battle with Fiat on both his own behalf and everyone else who is affected regardless it seems of any additional personal loss of value to his own van. I am sorry to hear that you have cancer and I sincerely hope that you can and will fully recover, but that said if you don't want return fire don't fire the first shot. As I see it far from congratulating Fiat for coming up with a fix for the problem, I believe that it is appalling that they have known about this issue for over two years and have chosen to try and get away with it for as long as possible. If the total undermining of Fiats domination of this market is what it takes to make Fiat sit up and take notice, that is of their own choosing and they know what to do to avoid this - the decent honest thing - fix all overly high reverse gears in all X250s. Even their own postings on this forum are delightfully vague and make no mention of a once and for all fix for every afflicted van. I enjoy your writings in MMM and I sincerely hope that you go on enjoying your van with good health and reliability and that the transmission does not fail on you but meanwhile I sure as hector am not gonna buy one. We are all entitled to our point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Now I am annoyed. I sent Bill a private email and wished him well at the close of it and especially with his health. After he had accused me on a public forum of deliberately damaging the gearbox on my van (which was ludicrous as we've now nursed it through another twenty odd thousand miles without incident) and insiulting just about every other forum contributor I felt it better to remove his name from my list of owners to update and did indeed suggest that he obviously hadn't ingested the full technical details. But for him to go and throw the cancer card into the forum after I'd wished him well suggests that he is more angry than I am. I can understand why he may be angry, but having a go at me for my attempt to get my van fixed is no way to vent it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I am with Andy, I thought that a private E-mail or a PM via the forum was just that PRIVATE and a personal wish or help. I have received such correspondence and will always treat the contents as private. All contributers can post a public reply on the forum. Just upset at Bill's postings Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Bill does have some valid points and is entitled to air his experiences with his van, but then goes and spoils it with personal insults. Not the best way of putting across your point of view, imo. Please stop it before it all gets out of hand, then we are all the losers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Well Bill, I have the mental capacity, prior to my severe brain ijury 4 years ago I was a highly qualified automotive engineer, I am now mentaly disabled and can only walk on crutches without falling over. That is in the past. However, like most of us I picked myself up, the people on this site have helped and been patient with my poor grammer, not one insult. I could have felt sorry for myself like you and become bitter and twisted. Andy has been patient and listen to me moaning on about my van, whith out complaint. So come on Bill put it in the past and stop being nasty :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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