Guest peter Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Just to set the balance on this matter I would be grateful if the owners who don't currently have this problem would let the rest of us know. Because we only hear one side of this saga. But it will affect all owners with lower residuals. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Would I be right in saying you have just ordered a new ducato based Mortorhome. Reason I mention is because you are showing all the signs of Cognitive Dissonance. You appear to have made a decision to buy, and are now trying to justfy you made the right decision. People have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalising their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. You appear to be doing exactly this having made the difficult decision to ignore the faults with the ducato and order one For this reason I suggest people bear this in mind when replying to this thread. Peter may be desperately needing your support to justify the decision he has made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Brambles - 2009-03-29 11:31 PM Would I be right in saying you have just ordered a new ducato based Mortorhome. Reason I mention is because you are showing all the signs of Cognitive Dissonance. You appear to have made a decision to buy, and are now trying to justfy you made the right decision. People have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalising their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. You appear to be doing exactly this having made the difficult decision to ignore the faults with the ducato and order one For this reason I suggest people bear this in mind when replying to this thread. Peter may be desperately needing your support to justify the decision he has made. So what is the point of your post appart from being malicious. I am only thinking of buying a used one. Is their something wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itexuk Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Peter, If you want one then buy one just make sure that you test it in reverse. Test it on hills, grass, straight reverse, turning reverse etc etc. I bought one 12 months ago after test reversing many times and reported on here that it did not judder. 9000 miles later I am more than pleased with the overall package but I have to say that it has started to judder in reverse and some times quite badly. Some times it does it other times no problem what so ever. When I feel it start to judder I just drop the clutch and start again. What I find strange is that I some times tow a trailer with 240 kilo motor bike on it. When I reverse with the trailer on it never judders. Not tried it on a steep hill yet but reversing it on grass / on site no problems I have reported the judder to Fiat last November, have a case number and waiting for the fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Fiat Ducato 2.3 6 speed owners without reverse judder I thought it must be April 1 !!!! when I read that title (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Peter I can appreciate your thinking, but any feedback you get needs to be treated with some caution. In the 1980s I owned a 16-valve VW Golf GTi, a car that some owners had complained had an insatiable thirst for oil. During a conversation with a company specialising in tuning and racing GTis I mentioned that my own Golf's motor used no oil between service intervals. "You are not driving it hard enough!" was the reply. Although there has been a huge amount of discussion on motorhome forums and widespread publicity in leisure magazines about the 'juddering in reverse' characteristic, I don't think any data analysis has ever been attempted regarding the vehicles reported as being affected by the fault. I believe it has now been generally accepted that the problem has its roots in an excessively high reverse-gear ratio, coupled to engine/transmission mountings that allow undue movement when the vehicle is reversed slowly under heavy load (eg. on a steep hill). As far as X/250 Ducato-based motorhomes are concerned, the middle variants - those with the 2.3litre motors - are apparently most prone to the malady and it's on these that Fiat is currently concentrating to effect some sort of cure. However, it can't be emphasised strongly enough that Ducato-based motorhomes with this engine come in all shapes and sizes, may be panel-van derived or coachbuilt, and can have 120bhp or 130bhp motors and two different overall gear ratios. Besides those variations, a motorhome driver's technique, expectation and requirements MUST be taken into account. Frankly, unless the number of these variables can be drastically reduced, it's a waste of time trying to detect any reliable patterns. This means that the safest advice that can be offered to someone like yourself considering buying a second-hand Ducato with the 2.3litre motor is that it would be wisest if you delayed your purchase, at least until the effectiveness of the revisions Fiat is applying to juddery Ducatos has been proven. A few weeks ago I was talking to a UK motorhome converter who builds on the Ducato. I asked about the juddering problem and was confidently told that it afflicted just a small percentage of Ducatos with the 2.3litre motor and Ducatos with different motors were unaffected. We know from unhappy postings on this forum that this is not so, though it's probably true that it is Ducatos with the 2.3litre power-plant that have attracted the most criticism. However, one interesting comment from the converter was that they had found it possible to perform 'judder-free' reversing manoeuvres with some of the (few) motorhomes that owners had brought back to them complaining about the vibration fault. The clear implication was that, in those particular cases, the driver's technique was contributing to the severity of the problem. It would be interesting if one could assemble a representative sample of X/250 Ducato-based motorhomes with similar mechanical specification (eg. 100 vehicles with the 2.3litre motor), half of which were owned by people who had complained about the juddering fault and the other half owned by people who claimed they had not encountered the problem. You'd need a suitably steep test-slope (let's say 1-in-6) and then everyone would be asked to start and reverse their own motorhome on and up that incline and then carry out the same procedure with everybody else's vehicle. I'm sure this exercise would be revealing and educational and I can easily envisage owners of 'judder-free' Ducatos refusing point-blank to test their own motorhomes when they saw how steep 1-in-6 is (and certainly not allowing anybody else to have a go!) I'm certain too that we'd see big differences in clutch/throttle-control skills and, sure as eggs is eggs, there would be plenty of over-cooked clutches by the end of the day. If there are forum members who own X/250 Ducato-based motorhomes with the 2.3litre motor, are happy that their vehicles are 'judder-free' in reverse and would like to assure Peter of this, I'm going to suggest that you also confirm that you have actually tested your motorhome in the manner I've just mentioned (ie. starting on and reversing slowly up a seriously steep hill). It also might be valuable if you provided details of your motorhome - make, exact model, year, mileage covered to date, and whether constructed on 'maxi' (16" wheels) or 'non maxi' (15" wheels) chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Forget Judder its a red herring all X250 have to high a ratio to reverse at safe speed up a 1in5 hill without slipping the clutch. Yes it is possible to eliminate judder but at the expence of the clutch. Those who say they have no judder may well be right but they will cook the clutch instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Derek, who was the converter you was talking to, it would be of interest to all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 That's absolutely amazing! 275 views and not one owner is happy with the way their van drives. I suppose it was a little naive of me to expect anything else. After all who is going to admit in open forum that they are happy with it, then 3 months down the road they discover it does have the dreaded judder after all. Their dealer (through Fiat) would hang them out to dry. That's why I used the words "Currently have a problem" as a get out in my original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Peter, Apologies for my post after you started this thread, No not malicious intentionally, it was late at night and after Bill's post on other thread which infuriated many I hope you understand. I realise now what you are trying to achieve. If I could have done I would have deleted but after 30 mins one cannot edit. My unreserved apologies for my comments. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panagah Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Well Peter, I will openly admit to knowing MANY motorhome owners with the 2.3 and 3-0 variants that don' t judder in reverse and never have. I will get my tin hat now for daring to back what the dealer told Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brambles - 2009-03-31 7:24 PM Peter, Apologies for my post after you started this thread, No not malicious intentionally, it was late at night and after Bill's post on other thread which infuriated many I hope you understand. I realise now what you are trying to achieve. If I could have done I would have deleted but after 30 mins one cannot edit. My unreserved apologies for my comments. Jon.Accepted Jon. Don't do it again boy or i's a comin' round to kick y'o fat ar*e, d'y hear me boy? (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losos Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Brambles - 2009-03-30 12:31 AM Reason I mention is because you are showing all the signs of Cognitive Dissonance. You appear to have made a decision to buy, and are now trying to justfy you made the right decision. Thanks Brambles, I've been trying to remember this phrase for years, (once did a marketing course many years ago) and find certain people around me doing it all the time lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Yes there are folk without judder but NONE who can reverse up a 1in 5 hill at crawl speed unless they cook their clutch JUDDER IS A RED HERRING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 colinfrier - 2009-04-01 9:02 AM Yes there are folk without judder but NONE who can reverse up a 1in 5 hill at crawl speed unless they cook their clutch JUDDER IS A RED HERRINGWe get your point Colin. Don't overegg it. We all know that judder is what you get when you try to move off when there is not enough Torque (rev's) in the drivetrain to do so, i.e when you accidentally pull off in third gear. Which points to the gearing being of the wrong ratio for the clutch to takeup smoothly. Which in turn means that the clutch has to be slipped to move off and not fully engaged until sufficient Torque has developed. Not a good thing to have to do when negotiating a steep incline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I to know of three people local to me who say they have no judder, they have never heard about it. Most do not follow forums so will not complain about any slight vibration when trying to reverse up a wall. I can state, once again, that my 2.2 five speed does not judder and has shown no sign of a burning clutch. I have covered 9,000 miles in Europe and the UK and have not had a single problem with the Fiat side. I have driven it in the Alps, Scottish Highlands and North Wales where I live with no problem. I have reversed it many times in most normal circumstances and tried it once up a fairly steep slope again no problem. Would it shudder and burn the clutch if I tried harder, of course, but then I could get any motorhome of any make to do the same if I drove it in a stupid manner. I know this is mainly about the 2.3 but it has been stated on here that all X250 judder and I call tell you they do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Maybe that's it Rupert123 - have you hit on that rare moment of clarity that will resolve all this nonesense? Perhaps I and all those others affected by this issue are just driving in a stupid manner? Perhaps if you can enlighten us on how to drive our vans correctly we can all write to Fiat with a humble apology and say sorry for wasting their time. I'm genuinely pleased you have no judder and I for one accept that not every owner experiences it. But as has been stated many times by many others, the judder is just one symptom of a reverse gear that has a ratio which is too high. The high reverse gear is the primary fault and it does affect all variants of the X250 to some degree. Fiat and Peugeot have acknowledged this fact, hence their belated efforts to provide a fix. Are you happy that your reverse gear is suitable to cope with all conditions your vehicle might encounter? If so you will have nothing to worry about, will you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 No problems with my X250 2.3 130hp, tried reversing up various without a problem. I agree reverse is a bit high but I have no problem letting the clutch in & reversing with engine on tickover & not using the throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 kedavi - 2009-04-01 7:22 PM Maybe that's it Rupert123 - have you hit on that rare moment of clarity that will resolve all this nonesense? Perhaps I and all those others affected by this issue are just driving in a stupid manner? Perhaps if you can enlighten us on how to drive our vans correctly we can all write to Fiat with a humble apology and say sorry for wasting their time. I'm genuinely pleased you have no judder and I for one accept that not every owner experiences it. But as has been stated many times by many others, the judder is just one symptom of a reverse gear that has a ratio which is too high. The high reverse gear is the primary fault and it does affect all variants of the X250 to some degree. Fiat and Peugeot have acknowledged this fact, hence their belated efforts to provide a fix. Are you happy that your reverse gear is suitable to cope with all conditions your vehicle might encounter? If so you will have nothing to worry about, will you? I really do suggest you read my post again and try to understand it. I said my 2.2 five speed has no judder, FIVE SPEED ONLY, is that clear enough. Fiat to my knowledge have offered no gearbox fix for the five speed. I have no idea if it will cope in all conditions and care less, as I said, if you bothered to read properly, any m/h of any make could be made to judder if you tried hard enough. I am sure most of us drive our vans around in a normal manner without constantly trying to test the clutch/gearbox to destruction. If the gearbox/clutch is damaged in the normal course of driving then it should be replaced, I have never said otherwise. Perhaps you are driving poorly I do not know, if you have a five speed and it judders under normal conditions then you certainly are and I would be happy to give you lessons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Come on fellas - keep it to the topic and stop winding each other up please as all you do is lose credibility. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I couldn't agree more Tracker, were supposed to help and advise people not start name calling if they dont agree with your version of events ,Have you noticed the lack of new topic,s being posted ?. people are afraid to ask in case they get slated, Come on Gents nicely does it, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Hi Rupert123, I have taken your advice and have re-read your post several times with the aim of trying to understand it. Maybe it is not as clear as you think it is. For example whilst I did understand that you have a 5 speed, I don't think you made it clear that the three people local to you were, like you, also owners of the 5 speed. You didn't say what they owned, and perhaps that is where my initial confusion arose. I suspect that all of us would be delighted with their vehicles if they only exhibited a"...slight vibration when trying to reverse up a wall", but that is not the circumstance that we complain about. But I think my main confusion has arisen from your statement that you "...could get any motorhome of any make to do the same (ie judder) if I drove it in a stupid manner". What is the purpose of this statement? Despite trying, I can't interpret this any other way than to conclude the implication from your post is that those who experience the problem are complaining about nothing whilst trying to reverse up a wall whilst driving stupidly. I can assure you I too drive my van "around in a normal manner without constantly trying to test the clutch/gearbox to destruction". In fact I actively avoid any reversing where possible. I do believe I have bothered to read your post properly several times now, and I have tried hard to understand it. If I have interpretted it incorrectly and drawn the wrong conclusions from your statements then perhaps it is not as clearly written as you think. Or perhaps I really am stupid after all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 You said it. Sorry, couldn't resist. :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 You certainly did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Ah yes, driving ability! That mysterious thing which we all possess from birth, but oddly, no-one else has ever been blessed with.That "mine performs perfectly, due to my exemplary technique, whereas all the faults in your vehicle are due to your total incompetence as a driver" type of certainty, often encountered when taking a clearly defective vehicle to the service manager for repairs under warranty.I wonder if Rupert might previously have completed some motor manufacturer's Customer Care course - with distinction, naturally? Any suggestions as to whose course that might have been? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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