The State of Things

[RoyH]

I usually go to church on Sundays and very especially Easter Sunday but I wasn't too well so I was at home and watched the TV. There was a Service from Southwark Cathedral, which I enjoyed, followed by the Pope's Urbi et Orbi Easter Address.

 

Then came a programme about the early life of the last Pope showing his student days in Krakow as the place was overrun by the Nazis. There were many archive clips of German soldiers lining people up against walls and among these was a glimpse of a German officer pushing a passer by and that person falling to the ground.

 

Now, where did I see something similar the other day?

 

Enough said.

 

[Guest Tracker]

I think that to compare today's Police force in the UK with the days of Hitler is quite wrong and is an insult to our police officers.

 

You might perhaps compare the police forces of some other countries like perhaps Zimbabwe amongst many others with their Nazi counterparts?

 

Sure - today's policing in the UK is far from perfect but I remain convinced that the vast majority of Police men and women are normal honest decent people trying their best to do a good job under sometimes very trying and politically correct circumstances.

 

The police are an easy target when the real target for our venom should be the politicians who create the rules and regime in which the police have to try to operate and it seems a that whatever goes wrong in the UK it is always the police who are at fault - according to the media at least - damned if they do and damned if they don't, it seems?

[CliveH]

I agree with what you say Tracker - totally!

 

But I too saw what Roy mentions and the same thought came into my mind. What made it powerful was that the video image of the two events was very similar.

 

Yes of course our police cannot be compared to what the Nazis did. But as propaganda for those that want to slander the police in general?? - That image is to be regretted as is the death of the poor guy who was killed for being in the wrong place and the wrong time.

 

The death of that actress when skiing in Canada after a simple bump on the head shows us all that we are really quite fragile. So I am sure the policeman did not mean his shove to have such tragic consequences.

 

But what makes our police different?

 

The Policeman that did the shoving came forward to his superiors. I think that is the actions of an honourable person and we should al remember that when some left wing, right wing or religious extremist tries to point the finger of hate.

 

[Victor Meldrew]

RoyH - 2009-04-13 9:48 PM

 

Now, where did I see something similar the other day?

 

Dunno, was it a priest at your church preparing a young boy perhaps?

[ROON]

VICTOR! You are very naughty at times. Now go and sit on the naughty step. *-)

[RoyH]

Of course in no way could anyone compare the Nazis with our present day police but it was just the similarity of that one instant that I noticed as did Clive.

 

I am in fact going to Israel on Saturday for a fortnight's pilgrimage and I will, if I can, go again to the Children's Memorial at Yad Vasham ( The Holocaust Museum) and if you can't be moved by that then nothing would move you. The place is in entire darkness except for some candles and mirrors which are all above and below you giving the effect of being in a star studded space. A voice reads out children's names who were slaughtered by these people, at the rate of about 2 a minute and I'm not sure but I think it takes 18 months to get back to the beginning of the list again.

 

Victor, of course there are bad priests just as there are bad anything, this is the world as it has been for ever.

 

No insult to the great majority of our police was intended.

[Mel B]

I assume you are all 'talking' about the Police Officer (PO 1) who slapped a woman and then hit her with his baton? I've just watched this on BBC news and must say that the chap seemed to have a very arrogant attitude - the WAY in which he slapped her was weird, then the way, as if in slow motion, he hit her on the legs with his baton was even weirder - it was as if he was on something? An adrenalin rush or something 'external' if you get my drift. It also looked like another Police Officer (PO 2) was trying to get between him and the crowd just before he hit the woman with the baton.

 

Maybe PO 1 realised his mistake of slapping her and the crowd reacted and he, and PO 2, thought they were in for a riot hence why PO 2 tried to put himself between the crowd and PO 1?

 

Whatever the reason, to me it is extremely worrying that PO 1 thought it was acceptable behaviour and was actually 'stupid' enough to do it too! They are human, yes, but apart from her giving him 'verbal' she didn't appear to make any threatening gestures - his reaction, by comparison, was totally over the top. I hate to think what he would have done had it got more heated - I think he deserves to gets the book thrown at him - possibly literally! :-|

[Guest Tracker]

ROON - 2009-04-14 7:56 PM

 

VICTOR! You are very naughty at times. Now go and sit on the naughty step. *-)

 

For those who don't know him of old, this 'person' has never contributed anything constructive to this forum but he does specialise in unpleasant remarks. When ignored he tends to go away for long periods.

[RoyH]

No Mel, I did not see that one until you mentioned it. It was the earlier one where a newsvendor was pushed over and later died of a heart attack that was in my mind. I've now looked at this one with the woman. Not very good is it?

[Mick H.]

CliveH - 2009-04-14 4:46 PM

 

I agree with what you say Tracker - totally!

 

But I too saw what Roy mentions and the same thought came into my mind. What made it powerful was that the video image of the two events was very similar.

 

Yes of course our police cannot be compared to what the Nazis did. But as propaganda for those that want to slander the police in general?? - That image is to be regretted as is the death of the poor guy who was killed for being in the wrong place and the wrong time.

 

 

 

 

 

It's very sad that the man died and what happened after the event might not come out, but do you think he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I heard on the news when it happened that someone had witnessed the same bloke being moved on by the same police earlier, so to see him casually wandering with his hands in his pockets as slow as he could I think he new exactly where he was, and why he was there.

 

Mick.

[bob b]

It transpired that the man was a homeless alcoholic. Although his family profess to be distraught at the manner of his death, they were content enough for him to be living on the streets.

[Guest peter]

Tracker - 2009-04-14 9:12 PM

 

ROON - 2009-04-14 7:56 PM

 

VICTOR! You are very naughty at times. Now go and sit on the naughty step. *-)

 

For those who don't know him of old, this 'person' has never contributed anything constructive to this forum but he does specialise in unpleasant remarks. When ignored he tends to go away for long periods.

Pity you can't follow his example then. For the same reasons.

[CliveH]

And here we go again!

 

The same old names offering the same old infantile "me me me me!" - "look at me me me" troll activity.

 

For what it is worth - I agree with Tracker having been on the receiving end of 'Peter' and 'Victor Meldrews' puerility in the past.

 

And Tracker is right - after a while they do go away and leave this forum to the mature and sensible. In that they are abit like flatulence - mildly unpleasant but fairly easily wafted away.

 

No doubt, for this, I will incur their juvenile wrath.

 

Such is life.

 

[Rapido-lass]

Like any situation, the media only show what they want everyone to see, so our first reaction is anti the police in this situation and this in turn causes hatred. Yes it did look like an unprovoked attack, but like anything, we need to balance it with the both sides of the story. When we find out later that the man who dies had previously been moved on by the same police it gives a totally different story. I'm not saying that the police were right in their actions, I'm saying it gives a totally different view of the events.

 

In my opinion, the media are the catalyst in causing more problems and hatred and keeping the ball rolling just so they can sell more papers and earn more money. When will we learn not to react and take everything at face value, a distorted one at that.

[donna miller]

Rapido-lass - 2009-04-15 7:56 AM

 

Yes it did look like an unprovoked attack, but like anything, we need to balance it with the both sides of the story.

 

When will we learn not to react and take everything at face value, a distorted one at that.

 

You have summed it up completely, the officer in question, ATTACKED the woman and should be charged with assualt.

The police are allowed to use justifiable force to restrain a suspect, hitting them with the back of their gloved gauntlet, is not reasonable force.

 

When they join the police, they should be mentally prepared for situations like this, but it would seem that he, and others, could not cope with the job. Maybe they expected to be sitting around in their vans pointing speed cameras at people.

 

Don't try to justify the actions of a thug, because that is exactly what that copper is, also not displaying your id numbers when on duty is an offence.

If it was a protester hitting a police officer, would you defend that action, whether provoked or not.

[CliveH]

I don't think any of us can see the video footage with anything less than a huge chunk of disquiet. I really WANT to believe that the Police are well trained and honourable. But the footage shown all over the news this lunchtime shows that some have very different ideals to what I thought was and should be the norm.

 

And on reflection I am now more deeply concerned than ever at the lack of standards in government and now the Police it seems. Am I right to be concerned that an aide very very close to our PM saw fit to lie and abuse others? I have seen many people interviewed that openly said that Gordon Brown works like that. Trashing his opponents is his normal game plan it seems.

 

If true, is it any wonder that Senior Police Officers take their lead from what actions and leadership style come out of No 10. – The actions may be different – but the abuse of authority and lack of moral and ethical standards is surely a common thread.

 

[malc d]

CliveH - 2009-04-15 1:05 PM

 

I don't think any of us can see the video footage with anything less than a huge chunk of disquiet. I really WANT to believe that the Police are well trained and honourable. But the footage shown all over the news this lunchtime shows that some have very different ideals to what I thought was and should be the norm.

 

And on reflection I am now more deeply concerned than ever at the lack of standards in government and now the Police it seems. Am I right to be concerned that an aide very very close to our PM saw fit to lie and abuse others? I have seen many people interviewed that openly said that Gordon Brown works like that. Trashing his opponents is his normal game plan it seems.

 

If true, is it any wonder that Senior Police Officers take their lead from what actions and leadership style come out of No 10. – The actions may be different – but the abuse of authority and lack of moral and ethical standards is surely a common thread.

 

 

 

For a bit of balance - it may well be that the media are only interviewing people who don't like Gordon Brown anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

There are bullies in all walks of life and in all countries - particularly those who have any sort of power over others - some even try it on this forum.

 

Both attacks from the perspective presented by a biased media show both attacks as unacceptable police behaviour - but then again the media do seem hell bent on discrediting the police and anyone else in authority whilst making seemingly no criticism of the violent and abusive elements in the crowds of protesters.

 

We in this country are fortunate that when spotted physical and mental bullying can and should be punished - unless it is by a senior politician that is.

 

Let us be thankful that although two policeman may have over reacted to a situation at the London protests many thousands of them did not.

 

I would not want to see either policeman lose their jobs over this but a severe censure and loss of some pay and promotion prospects would be in order along with some re training and closer supervision.

 

Everyone makes mistakes and deserves a second chance in my view.

[Victor Meldrew]

Tracker - 2009-04-14 9:12 PM

 

ROON - 2009-04-14 7:56 PM

 

VICTOR! You are very naughty at times. Now go and sit on the naughty step. *-)

 

For those who don't admre him as I do, this 'person' has never contributed anything constructive to this forum but he does specialise in unpleasant remarks. When ignored he tends to go away for long periods.

 

Aww Dick, you poor-poor man, still hurting after all this time.

 

If only you could ignore me you might recover from your distorted perception of reality.

 

[Corky 8]

Police-Love them or Hate them they are the thin blue line between us and Anarchy, that said I do not believe they have the unchallengable right to strike anyone without justifiable reason( verbal abuse or someone in your face is not justifiable as you are then personalising it), training and discipline play a great part in any Government Force be it Military or civil, If that given PC reacted in the manner he did towards a none violent woman ,then he is failing in his duty to protect and serve and may react even more violently in another heated protest , it was the women's Civil right to protest in a none violent manner, and she should have not met with the violence she did, I agree the large Majority of our Police force do an Excellent service, hence most of us can sleep safely in our beds, but the police must be seen to be fair and balance in their work.

[CliveH]

Well put Corky.

 

She should not have been subject to the treatment she received. Neither should the guy who was pushed over and subsequently died.

 

And yes it is only two out of many.

 

But is it just two that happened to be caught on camera?

 

Similarly was the spurious email attacks by Gordon Browns spin Dr. just the tip of the Iceberg? Underneath the surface of government do we have a really nasty rule bending elite that will stoop to anything in the pursuit of what they want to achieve?

 

And from my memory of what went before, - is “New Labour” any different to the last government of John Major sleaze ridden Conservatives?

 

[Basil]

CliveH - 2009-04-16 8:18 AM

 

And from my memory of what went before, - is “New Labour” any different to the last government of John Major sleaze ridden Conservatives?

 

Nor will it be any different to the next lot you get in power, be it Labour, Tory or Libdem.

 

Power corrupts.

 

Bas

[malc d]

We get the politicians that we deserve.

 

All we know about them is what we read / see in the media, which is biased. So people just go along with the opinions of their chosen newspapers.

 

They therefore hire people to 'advertise ' their brand.

 

The nature of advertising is very often to exagerrate and mislead -

 

...and, surprise, surprise - the PR men sometimes go 'over the top' and come up with what I think is pretty juvenile rubbish.

 

 

In the end it's the policies that count - so maybe we should just judge political parties on those.

 

 

 

 

 

 

:-(

[ROON]

Prior to the death of that unfortunate man, the first footage shown locally showed the police being heavy handed. The protesters were actually holding their arms in the air showing a surrender type sign, and trying to verbally placate the police as they were hitting out with their batons. I actually tried to send an email complaining of this but my computer as usual was playing up and sadly I didn't pursue the matter.

 

I know the police have a lousy job at times, but over the years I have seen many instances where they have not lived up to what we should expect. In most cases it has been the younger members of the force that seem to be less in control.

 

This is, obviously, only my opinion ... but all opinions are based on experience and in the past when I have turned to them as a victim I have been let down. Let us hope that when all the amateur video footage is looked at, some more light will be thrown on the two incidents (and others).

[RoyH]

I know it's not the same topic as I started but with ref to the display of identity numbers, there was an item on BBC South news today which was about the introduction of more mobile tax collection (Sorry safety camera) equipment in Hampshire. They showed the policeman operating the thing in the van and he had a high visibility jacket which did not have his number on the shoulder epaulettes. They tied this item into the fact that Swindon Council is removing all the cameras and replacing them with traffic activated illuminated warnings as that council feel it is a much better use of the money they pay to the safety camera partnership.

 

So if you got a ticket from him in Hampshire would it be legal?

 

I'm off now as noted above so hope you all keep happy and safe and if you are away have a great time.