Carrying a scooter - towbar S force limits

[Tony D]

I'm currently trying to work out whether or not I can safely carry a 50cc scooter on the back of my 2008 VW T2 campervan. I've read various threads about working out load weight, but what I don't understand is how to get around the S value of the van. I have looked at a couple of off-the-shelf tow bars for my van, one says in the instructions "follow manufacturers S value", the other states a value of 50Kg. I've read in various threads how to calculate the downward force, but is the manufacturers S value irrelevant or does it need to be followed? Could I for instance (assuming that I won't be exceeding max weight or max axle weights) have a company custom make a tow bar that would be strong enough to overcome VW's 50Kg S value?

 

From what I can see, most vehicle manufacturers don't suggest an S value above 75Kg, so is everyone happily ignoring this, or is there another factor at play.

 

Thanks for your help.

[Brian Kirby]

You will probably have to consult VW, quoting your vehicle VIN.  However, I suspect your 2008 van is a bit more up to date than a T2!  :-)

I believe there is a complication under UK legislation, depending on whether your base vehicle is regarded by VW as car derived (Combi etc), or as van derived.  If car derived, it will be regarded as UK Type Approved and, so far as I am aware, can only be fitted with a towbar that is also UK Type Approved.  That, I would guess, would rule out carrying and kind of scooter.  However, I believe vans are not included within UK Type Approval requirements, so an "engineered" solution may be permissible if van derived.  Only VW can answer which can be done and with what effect on the warranty. 

Final thought - I'd be very surprised if any powered scooter could be towbar mounted because the combined weight of scooter plus bracket would far exceed the permissible load that can be transferred back to the Transporter bodyshell via the designated towbar mounting points.  Before you consult VW, therefore, it might be worth obtaining the weight of the scooter you propose carrying, and an indicative weight of the relevant scooter bracket.

[Tony D]

Thanks for your thoughts Brian.

 

It's a Brazilian T2, so yes it's a T2 and yes it's new.

 

It is registered as PLG campervan, and neither of the tow bars I've found for it (made by reputable companies) are type approved, so it falls under the van category.

 

As you say, the crux of the matter is the permissible load on the tow bar, and as talked about in MMM this month by John Wickersham, this appears to be regularly ignored.

 

I take your point regarding the bodyshell, and maybe that is where coach built vans with bolt-on chassis get away from such issues?

[Brian Kirby]

Well, I still think you probably need specific manufacturer's advice, but from whom I know not!  Do VW UK have any contacts with the Brazilian factory, or has VW hived off the whole of T2 production to Brazil, so no longer has responsibility?

Whichever, good luck!

[Tony D]

Thanks Brian.

 

I guess to making things a little less specific to my own van, I note that the Peugeot Boxer panel van has a published tow ball down force limit of 100Kg. Does that mean that if one owns a panel van conversion, then that is the maximum weight that should be applied, but if the Peugeot Boxer has an Alko chassis bolted onto it as part of a coach built conversion, then this limit no longer applies because the tow bar manufacturer is effectively extending the chassis?

[tonyishuk]

I think that it would be wise to seek advice from the coach builder and from Alko.

 

The load on the towball may be (say) 100kg static, but can go up several times that if the vehicle and trailer go over a speed hump or undulating surfaces at speed. (especially a 4 wheel trailer caravan)

 

Same with any load on the back. I saw 2 bikes and the rack fall / break from a motorhome when it hit a badly marked speed hump doing about 25 mph. Bikes went down as the the front wheels hit the hump, then up as the back wheels hit, then down onto the road taking the rack with them.

 

It did not seem as if the bikes were over heavy, nor the rack badly fixed as the mountings were still attached to the wooden spars and had bits of the inside of the m/home attached.

 

Not a happy m/home owner !

 

Not a towball problem I know but it illustrates the forces at work.

 

Rgds

 

[Tony D]

Thank you for your comments Tony.

 

I have a resolution to my question. I exchanged emails with a reputable and well known tow bar and scooter rack manufacturer. I asked whether their existing tow bar could take the 100Kg weight I needed, and also whether they could make me a custom tow bar that could carry more weight than VW's specifications. They said no, don't do it. On the basis that they could have sold me hundreds of pounds worth of tow bar and rack, I have to commend them on their honesty.

 

What I have learned from all this is that the manufacturer's spec rules, so if your base vehicle uses the OEM chassis, then you are limited in most cases to between 50 and 100KG. This probably also applies to coach built motorhomes where outrigger members have been added aft of the OEM chassis and rear axle. As far as I can tell, the only exception to this is where an Al-Ko chassis has been used. In short, it's all a lot more complicated than just axle weight/ length calculations.

 

It makes you wonder just how many overloaded motorhomes their are travelling around, and what potential risks they may generate.

 

As for me, I'm going to start investigating the possibility of either carrying a monkey bike or folding moped in the body of my van, or carrying an electric bike on the back!

[Brian Kirby]

Tony D - 2009-06-26 10:39 AM ............. What I have learned from all this is that the manufacturer's spec rules, so if your base vehicle uses the OEM chassis, then you are limited in most cases to between 50 and 100KG. This probably also applies to coach built motorhomes where outrigger members have been added aft of the OEM chassis and rear axle. As far as I can tell, the only exception to this is where an Al-Ko chassis has been used. In short, it's all a lot more complicated than just axle weight/ length calculations..............

Even this is not quite the full picture.  Under EC Type Approval regulations, where an OEM chassis is modified in the course of conversion to a motorhome, for example by substituting an AlKo chassis for the rear portion of the OEM chassis, or by adding an AlKo or other chassis extension to the rear of the OEM chassis, the converter becomes responsible for the performance of the modification.  Where AlKo components are used, this responsibility will usually be fulfilled by relying on AlKo's specialised design criteria.

What this means is that the converter now becomes the "owner" of the chassis, and so all modifications have to be approved by them, or AlKo if appropriate, for use with the modified chassis.  The catch is that under UK legislation, as I understand it, Type Approval of motorhomes is not required for their registration, and so whereas a Type Approved towbar must be fitted to a Type Approved car, using only the car manufacturer's designated mounting points, this is not so for motorhomes.

Open season, some may whoop, you can just do as you like.  Not necessarily, since the EC regs exist, and have been adopted for motorhomes, so far as I am aware, throughout the rest of the EC.  For example, our van was made in Germany, and has a full Type Approval German Certificate of Conformity.  In UK therefore, a non-conforming, blacksmith made, towbar could be mounted, where in Germany only a manufacturer's approved version could be mounted and it's presence would then have to be recorded on the vehicle registration details.  The question is, should the UK blacksmith made item fail in use, who would be liable for the accident that potentially might ensue?  If the German item fails, and was correctly fitted and not being abused at the time, the towbar manufacturer, and/or possibly the approval organisation, would be liable.  In UK the issue of liability is a bit of an open book at present, since such events are rare, and major accidents as a consequence even rarer.  However, at some stage in the future there will presumably be some such tragedy, at which time expect Type Approval of motorhomes and their towbars to suddenly become a UK legal requirement.

It's all a bit like regulation of banks.  Fuddy duddy Europeans had strict government controls, while we slick and courageous Brits had superior self regulation, and a far more efficient economy in consequence.  Heigh ho, I guess we'll finally get there in the end, but it is so frustrating having to watch as one after another our infinitely superior, buccaneering, individualistic procedures come into line with the conservative, wrongheaded, European model that for some reason, despite being consistently wrong, seems to serve the European population rather better that ours manages for us.

Apologies for the final digression and rant.  All better now.  :-)

[V6Jim]

TRAILER!

 

SORTED....

 

Jimmy

[Tony D]

Quite true Jimmy, however after towing a caravan for the last 25 years, I was hoping for a more integrated solution. I'm also not convinced that I'd get the planning permission passed the management!