Porky Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I agree with Andy, the way forward has to be to use the French system of Aires and France Passion, plus the willingness of Restaurants in France etc to allow parking, as the evidence that it works for the benefit of everyone. Unfortunately we have the existance of rigid planning laws (for good reason) and this may well prevent anyone offering an area for overnight parking. I stress parking not camping. If collectively we can all chip away at this resistance with sound argument and not the "sour grapes" approach then I think gradually we can win our case, but it aint going to happen all by itself. Roy Fuller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild rover Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 GJH - 2009-07-11 7:04 PM wild rover - 2009-07-11 1:35 PM With regard to what I said about Laugharne in west Wales, someone I met this morning who has a holiday home in that village told me that the reason there's no overnight stays is, just as I suspected, because of the fear of travellers. But in this case it is really stupid, because the parking spot gets flooded in a high tide. There's no way a bunch of travellers could park up and stay there on a permanent basis. I'm sure the local coucil know that, but they just want to be pig-headed about the whole thing. Oh, and they're probably afraid that if someone parks up in a MH that it will stop buses full of tourists being able to park! Apparently 30,000 people vist the Dylan Thomas Boathouse every year. But we only wanted to stay one night, arriving at around 8pm, when the boathouse is closed, and departing at around 6am the next day. It's very very frustrating! This is a public car park and we all pay road tax in this bloody country! Is that "someone" anything to do with the council who knows the full story or merely propagating speculation? (QUOTE) Do you have hard evidence that the local council just want to be pig headed or is that also speculation? (QUOTE) Since the person I spoke to owns a holiday home in the village I think they know what they're talking about! You suggested I email the council to give evidence of benefits of providing facilities. Well, if you'd read my message properly you'd see that there is no mention of facilities. All I would like to do is park overnight in the village. I don't need any facilities to do that! Pam Hope this message reads ok. I've never quoted anyone before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 wild rover - 2009-07-12 2:29 PM Since the person I spoke to owns a holiday home in the village I think they know what they're talking about! You suggested I email the council to give evidence of benefits of providing facilities. Well, if you'd read my message properly you'd see that there is no mention of facilities. All I would like to do is park overnight in the village. I don't need any facilities to do that! Pam Hope this message reads ok. I've never quoted anyone before! The reason I asked is that the person owns a holiday home. That suggests that he/she is not a permanent resident so may well not be best placed to know the full facts. There are plenty of permanent residents of towns/villages who are ignorant of the full facts of any given matter, never mind part time residents :-) You are actually asking for the provision of facilities in that a parking space is a facility - it doesn't have to mean provision of water or waste disposal. In your original post you say "There's a council sign saying that motorhomes will be clamped!". Which council is that? I was away from home when I responded last night so didn't have the opportunity to do any research. Since I returned today I have tried to find out by web searches who actually owns the two car parks in Laugharne. They are not on the list provided to me by Carmarthenshire County Council and the Transport Direct web site has "Operator - Unknown" for both of them. Who actually owns the car park you referred to? Is there any reason why you shouldn't approach the owner with evidence of the positive benefits of allowing overnight stops by motorhomes and ask that the policy be changed? Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROND Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 tonyg3nwl - 2009-07-12 9:04 AM Hi Motorhomers, Can I draw attention to the existence of Caravan Club, and Caravan and camping club, both of whom run a nationwide network of Certificated sites, each of which can accept up to 5 vans (caravan or Camper vans) and which charge a nominal sum for a night pitch with water and waste disposal points, and rubbish disposal facilities No need to whinge about councils not providing facilities (at ratepayers expense.) Join a club (at your own expense)and use the licenced facilities on the CL or CS network, or indeed their main sites. ------------------------------------------------------------ Yes all way out in the sticks. One of the biggest problems with the CC or CCC sites and also their CLs is that they are mostly mies away from the nearest villages/towns and facilities for motorhome owners to be able to walk to or cycle on Britains dangerous roads. If you drive in then you cant park anywhere because they dont want you or you have to pay a penalty for the privalege unlike the French aires which are placed in such a way for the local business to take advantage of in other words in Towns and villages where they do want you and want you to use the facilities. RD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 ROND - 2009-07-12 4:57 PM Yes all way out in the sticks. One of the biggest problems with the CC or CCC sites and also their CLs is that they are mostly mies away from the nearest villages/towns and facilities for motorhome owners to be able to walk to or cycle on Britains dangerous roads. If you drive in then you cant park anywhere because they dont want you or you have to pay a penalty for the privalege unlike the French aires which are placed in such a way for the local business to take advantage of in other words in Towns and villages where they do want you and want you to use the facilities. RD It's been well rehearsed, on this thread and others, that there is a difference between this country and France. The reasons are many and varied. The fact remains, though, that there is no point in any of us whinging or complaining about "them" not wanting us because it will not change anything. If anyone is serious about wanting change then the only way to have a chance of getting it is to put some effort in and contact the appropriate councils to show them how their areas will benefit. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Graham's post above is absoutely on the button and it is no use simply saying that car parks are already there and you just want to use them to park overnight - you will probably find that, on many council owned car parks, vehicles beneath a certain weight can already park overnight (often for free) but that sleeping/cooking in vehicles is strictly forbidden for very good reasons. This can be changed by effective lobbying of the council and a preparedness to work with them to help them overcome their lack of knowledge and understanding of the needs and requirements of motorhomers. There are safegaurds that the council can write into the legal parking orders that will, for example, ensure a defence against permanent 'camping' on any site given special status for overnight camping of 'motorcaravans'. Whether we like it or not the people employed to manage council car parks are, generally, unaware of our needs and the benefits that encouraging touring motorhomes to stay overnight (instead of passing their town by)can bring to small towns and villages. They probably have no idea what facilities a modern motorhome has but could very well have heard horror stories from other councils about how a few motorhome users have brought with them unwanted abuse of the local facilities and, in the process, alienated the local population. Who is better placed to overcome these issues but those who want the facility to use their motorhomes overnioght in pleasant destinations but the motorhomers themselves? Go to it. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I have no desire to camp in a car park overnight, a CL out in the sticks suits me fine, what I don't like is going into a car park to find "cars only, no vans or motorhomes" or "park wholey within marked bay" and no indication as to any other parking I might use. When this happen in Wales and I emailed council to point out I moved on to another area to do shopping I was not even sent a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertandjean Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 There is only one good thing about using a motorhome in the U.K. and that is the ability to take it over to France! End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 robertandjean - 2009-07-12 9:36 PM There is only one good thing about using a motorhome in the U.K. and that is the ability to take it over to France! End of story. I use my Motorhome in the UK without any problems whatsoever and fully enjoy the freedom it gives, whether to use it for short weekend getaways in the UK or longer UK or European touring. There are lots of beautiful places to see in the UK and the only pitfall I find is that there is no gaurantee with the weather (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheetahdavie Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Well said big momma, France is just a means of getting to more interesting places.{I include the UK in more interesting?}.I have been arrested in France/separated from family/robbed/bored stiff by flat lands/told by my youngsters that Blackpool Tower was better than the Eiffel Tower/pestered by a peeping tom[why he looked at the wife and daughters i will never understand?and declined to use toilets? I travel around Yorkshire/Cornwall /Dorset/Gloucester/and in to Wales. Scotland has all and more. Why one Earth anyone would even consider France is beyond me..unless of course there are "bragging rights"..been to an "Aire"..?Nope big Momma is right,there are fantastic places in this country to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I agree Graham which is why I started aires for England recently. You only have to visit this thread to see just how little action there is. Complaining yes, positive, constructive action no. Roy Fuller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertandjean Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Agree with you Big Momma there are some beautiful places to visit in U.K. but do not agree that a motorhome gives you real freedom to visit them, given parking restrictions, need to book sites ahead etc etc. In France, on the other hand, there are places whish are just as beautiful but where you can park, stay overnight, do not need to book ahead and where it does not cost an arm and a leg! Regarding comments from cheetahdavie then what can you say? Clearly never visited the Alps and had a string of really bad luck! We think it is wise you stay at home as if we ever did meet you on an aire (sorry bragging again) we fear what might happen to us all. All the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild rover Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Oh dear, I'm sorry I opened such a can of worms! Porky, how do you think we can get your scheme off the ground? To be honest, I don't have any faith in the local authorities, they're only out for what they can get and aren't really interested in what people want, imo. Talking of travellers; A friend of mine who lives in Belfast told me that the local council had provided facilites for travellers, outside of the city. Loos, washrooms, etc! Guess what happened? Within a week the travellers had pinched everything. Taps, washbasins, the lot! You would have thought the social workers would have known that was going to happen....I don't want to sound like some kind of reactionary, but these councils will put money into stupid schemes like that before they'll listen to motorhomers! Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 robertandjean - 2009-07-13 11:08 AM Agree with you Big Momma there are some beautiful places to visit in U.K. but do not agree that a motorhome gives you real freedom to visit them, given parking restrictions, need to book sites ahead etc etc. In France, on the other hand, there are places whish are just as beautiful but where you can park, stay overnight, do not need to book ahead and where it does not cost an arm and a leg! Regarding comments from cheetahdavie then what can you say? Clearly never visited the Alps and had a string of really bad luck! We think it is wise you stay at home as if we ever did meet you on an aire (sorry bragging again) we fear what might happen to us all. All the best But that is the good thing about a) this forum - we can share opinions and agree to disagree :-D and b) using our Motorhomes to go where we want to suit our own individual preferences. I do tour Europe every year and I love France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Switzerland. Have not been back to Italy for far too long but changing that next year when we have 'planned' to go to Lake Garda (with stopovers in Switzerland and France). So, you have to plan ahead and pre-book in UK, okay, when we decide to tour UK that is what we do. Now personally I will always plan ahead and pre-book for Europe but if individuals have a preference not to then so be it. Let's just enjoy our own style of Motorhoming life would be really boring if we were all the same and had nothing to discuss and debate :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 wild rover - 2009-07-13 11:16 AM Oh dear, I'm sorry I opened such a can of worms! Porky, how do you think we can get your scheme off the ground? May I suggest you look above. Roy, David and myself have already indicated how positive approaches may be made. To be honest, I don't have any faith in the local authorities, they're only out for what they can get and aren't really interested in what people want, imo. I'm sorry but, having worked in local authorities for nearly 36 years, I find that insulting. That sort of attitude to local authorities is precisely why change doesn't happen. If somebody came along to you and said "I think you're rubbish, give me xxxx" what would your reaction be? There are good and bad workers in local authorities - but that is no different from any other industry. Talking of travellers; A friend of mine who lives in Belfast told me that the local council had provided facilites for travellers, outside of the city. Loos, washrooms, etc! Guess what happened? Within a week the travellers had pinched everything. Taps, washbasins, the lot! You would have thought the social workers would have known that was going to happen....I don't want to sound like some kind of reactionary, but these councils will put money into stupid schemes like that before they'll listen to motorhomers! Pam They put money into those schemes because the law - S225, Housing Act 2004 - requires them to. It is also a housing matter and nothing to do with social workers. May I suggest that some research might be appropriate before having an unfounded pop at local authorities in future. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 GJH - 2009-07-13 12:14 PM I'm sorry but, having worked in local authorities for nearly 36 years, I find that insulting. That sort of attitude to local authorities is precisely why change doesn't happen. If somebody came along to you and said "I think you're rubbish, give me xxxx" what would your reaction be? There are good and bad workers in local authorities - but that is no different from any other industry. Mmmmmmmm, strange how most think the same. I think it may be that when you need them, its for your own needs, and when you dont get it, you then think they are all useless. That and the red tape they have to deal with, and the nice pensions they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild rover Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Graham, I didn't mean to offend anyone, but imo local councils exist only to feather their own nests! Just like politicians, there may be some good people who really want to make a difference, but they are just being duped by the system and doing it a big favour by making government seem honest and sincere. Perhaps I made a mistake when I said it was the local authorities who built the facilities for travellers in Belfast, but what I was trying to say was that money was wasted on such a scheme, when nothing is being done for honest people. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 wild rover - 2009-07-13 6:35 PM Graham, I didn't mean to offend anyone, but imo local councils exist only to feather their own nests! Just like politicians, there may be some good people who really want to make a difference, but they are just being duped by the system and doing it a big favour by making government seem honest and sincere. Perhaps I made a mistake when I said it was the local authorities who built the facilities for travellers in Belfast, but what I was trying to say was that money was wasted on such a scheme, when nothing is being done for honest people. Pam Pam But what Graham and I are trying to get across (to many who seem to want to see more dedicated motorhome parking) is that these same local authorities are, more than likely, unaware of the needs of motorhome users or the benefits that providing such facilities could bring to the local area. They are, in the main, elected (in the case of local councillors) and appointed (in the case of authority officers) to help identify, provide, manage and maintain local facilities for local people. Thus the argument to make provision for others coming to their area has to be made and they are more likely to listen to their own residents (if they make the case for motorhome parking) backed by support from the rest of us from outside their particular area. Even if the initial response from the council is underwhelming (as it was in my own case) there are others who can be brought in to help change the stance such as local councillors, localMP and memebrs of forums such as this. Reading through the thread there are some who don't believe it is possible to influence local authorites in this task but we have proved it is possible - and I also started out being sceptical as top whether it could be achieved! However, starting with negative comments about the authority is no way to get them on side - much better to give them every opportunity to prove they are listening. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 wild rover - 2009-07-13 6:35 PM Graham, I didn't mean to offend anyone, but imo local councils exist only to feather their own nests! Just like politicians, there may be some good people who really want to make a difference, but they are just being duped by the system and doing it a big favour by making government seem honest and sincere. (snip) Sorry Pam but you can't have it both ways. In that statement (especially by saying "just like politicians") you are saying that local government officers (which I used to be) are there to feather their own nests and/or are stupid enough to be dupes. Is it any surprise that I should be offended? As David says, making negative comments about authorities is no way to get them on side. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonflyer Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I have to say from my observations of parish politics which I have had an interest in for some years that the reason for the lack of "Aires" in the UK is amongst other things VANDALS. In our area we have had public facilities of all kinds, bus stops, childrens playgrounds - everything damaged and destroyed. Think of any way to destroy what has been provided from public funds and the vandals have tried it. The councils try to provide for the local community and have to meet exacting standards to do so, then to see it ripped apart and burned. Repairs and replacements meet the same fate time after time. We now have horrid brick bus shelters with concrete roofs as they are hopefully vandalproof. I think in these circumstances to expect "Aires" is hoping for something too much. Joyce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Having experienced - and fought against - this sort of thing I can definitely sympathise with what you say, Joyce. One point that might be made to local authorities, though, is that the presence of people staying overnight in motorhomes might deter some of the vandals. For the most part these people are cowards who only undertake their activities when there is a low risk of being caught so many might be put off if there are witnesses about. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 GJH - 2009-07-13 10:49 PM Having experienced - and fought against - this sort of thing I can definitely sympathise with what you say, Joyce. One point that might be made to local authorities, though, is that the presence of people staying overnight in motorhomes might deter some of the vandals. For the most part these people are cowards who only undertake their activities when there is a low risk of being caught so many might be put off if there are witnesses about. Graham Or they turn their attention to vandalising your van >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_C Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 dragonflyer - 2009-07-13 9:20 PM I think in these circumstances to expect "Aires" is hoping for something too much. Joyce But "Aires", of the type being discussed, don't require any facilities to be created! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Andy_C - 2009-07-13 10:53 PM dragonflyer - 2009-07-13 9:20 PM I think in these circumstances to expect "Aires" is hoping for something too much. Joyce But "Aires", of the type being discussed, don't require any facilities to be created! Andy Exactly, Andy. The most that needs to be done by the local authority is to change the legal parking orders to specifically allow sleeping and cooking in motorhomes - which also strengthens their legal position against 'travellers' in caravans - for say 1 or 2 nights in seven and between certain times. Any 'additional' investment in facilities is a matter to be considered by the council with the cost of doing so being balanced against the benefits to the area of attracting extra visitors. But, to be moved to make the changes, they need to be convinced that there is a need. It may be natural (and certainly was in my discussions with Redcar and Cleveland Council) for the local authority to initially think that large sums of money will need to be found and this automatically makes them reluctant to take the suggestion up when they have other pressing demands on the budget. However, it is these sort of issues that a knowledgeable and enthusiastic motorhomer can help those involved fully understand. Most of those who have tried to take up the idea with their local authority have probably taken the obvious route of telephoning or writing to them in the first instance only to have the idea rejected at the first hurdle. I found that it is only when you have the undivided attention of the right people (in a face to face meeting) that these, essentially, side issues can be discussed and dispelled before getting to the real details that subsequently turn out to be not as onerous as they first thought. Eventually, I realised that I had to break down the initial objective of getting the local authority to establish overnight parking for motorhomes in my home town into smaller sub-objectives like: securing a meeting with the head of tourism to explain first hand the benefits of attracting motorhomes to stay overnight in the town, or enlisting the support of the local town councillors. I can look back now and see that virtually everyone subsequently involved had these natural reservations but that each of them became quite enthusiastic and focussed on how to get the scheme going rather than how to stop it when they had the opportunity to talk through the issues they raised with someone who knew what motorhoming was about, first hand. Sorry people but there is no easy way round this. If dedicated overnight parking for motorhomes is what you want then someone has to take the initiative and fight this particular corner. It takes time, enthusiasm and a willingness to take part in the process of local government. Wading in with complaints, negative observations and abuse of the very people you want to take up your cause is, perhaps, not going achieve the objective. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 david lloyd - 2009-07-14 9:41 AM Sorry people but there is no easy way round this. If dedicated overnight parking for motorhomes is what you want then someone has to take the initiative and fight this particular corner. It takes time, enthusiasm and a willingness to take part in the process of local government. Wading in with complaints, negative observations and abuse of the very people you want to take up your cause is, perhaps, not going achieve the objective. David Agreed that if you want something bad enough then fight for it (not literaly). However, you must have a strong business case to show 'What's in it for them'. So why not get some facts and figures from other countries that do provide these sort of facilities and then highlight the benefit to the local communities and/or councils. We all know that users of the 'Free' France Passion scheme benefits the land owners because generally the 'users' purchase the local produce. Same for 'Aires', it attracts tourism and therefore local shops, restaraunts, museums etc benefit financially. We should not adopt the 'We want so provide' attitude as that will not get very far. I applaud efforts of anyone who has the motivation, dedication and perseverance to take such issues forward but it has to be done strategicaly (Perhaps in a similar format to writing a business case) so that the administrative, physical or financial effort that are needed will be seen to provide a 'return'. It is not just the local authorities that will need to be convinced, the local residents may not be Motorhome freindly and therefore counter such proposals, so a strategy needs to be put in place to get them on board. Letters to Councils, Petitions, Marches all very admirable but i doubt that these will have the desired result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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