maggyd Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 And my O.H. has also fitted a small green light that flashes when the fan is going so you can make sure you shut the blade properly and dont leave the motor running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian81 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I feel as though I am missing something here!! We bought a new MH 11 months ago and I wondered about fitting a SOG but the price put me off. We have used the MH for over 150 nights and the only time loo smells have bothered us is when travelling with the tank nearly full and going up hill -I suspect a pressure issue. To make dumping easy we don't use chemicals. We just shut the lid prior to operating the blade and then either press the button for a flush of use a spray bottle to freshen the bowl with some dilut Theftford pink fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian81 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I feel as though I am missing something here!! We bought a new MH 11 months ago and I wondered about fitting a SOG but the price put me off. We have used the MH for over 150 nights and the only time loo smells have bothered us is when travelling with the tank nearly full and going up hill -I suspect a pressure issue. To make dumping easy we don't use chemicals. We just shut the lid prior to operating the blade and then either press the button for a flush of use a spray bottle to freshen the bowl with some dilut Theftford pink fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 If you are not using chemicals & do not have permanent ventilation (as with a SOG), you may be tempting your luck. Methane is a by product of decomposing waste, which can result in a tank of pressurised flammable waste. Some years ago after I had emptied the tank and did not put any chemical in as we were on our way home from hols one of my little darlings unbeknown to me did a No.2, a couple of weeks later I undid the blade, the eruption was unbelievable the stench unbearable & I was covered in s**t. I don't understand how you do not get smells if you don't use chemicals, with our SOG it's brilliant at keeping the smells out, occasionally we make the mistake of opening the blade forgetting to turn on the control panel result no SOG fan running and the most revolting stink. With Aquakem at nearly 10 quid a bottle it doesn't take long to get back the £90 a SOG costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 maggyd - 2009-07-17 10:45 PM And my O.H. has also fitted a small green light that flashes when the fan is going so you can make sure you shut the blade properly and dont leave the motor running. Our problem is forgetting to turn the electrics on so no fan running when we open the blade oh! what a lovely smell. I think I need a big red warning light that flashes if you open the blade or lid with the electrics off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I seem to recall reading (maybe from derek) that some new Thetfords have a fan similier to SOG, maybe this is fitted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kontiki Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Our toilet is the Thetford C250 toilet, they call it a ventilator but it is just the same as the SOG. The fan & carbon filter are in a compartment under the toilet & the vent is under the van. To me it works better than the SOG as the fan stays on longer. When you firt press the flush button the fan comes on & stays on for quite a while (the SOG fan only comes on when the flap is opened). Having fitted a SOG to my last van I can say that the Thetford system works as well if not better than the original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Can Ian81 tell us which model toilet he has as this could be the answer to his lack of smells. On the 250 does the fan come on with the blade as well as the flush or do you need to give a short flush before opening the blade to reduce smells? Tried to look up info on C250 on Thetford website not a mention of it, I assume they are only supplying manufactures at the moment, after the advertising they did when it first came out you would think they would acknowledge it's existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian81 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Not sure of the exact model number but think it is a 200 connected to the main water tank. It looks as though it could be retrofitted with a SOG type fan system but it certainly has no fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 If it hasn't a fan or permanent ventilation (which a standard C200 does not have) I don't see how it can be used without chemicals, apart from the smell it could be dangerous. This is the 200:- http://www.thetford.com/Home/Products/PermanentToilets/CassetteC200CWSCS/tabid/112/Default.aspx If it uses flushing water from main tank it won't have the rear tank. As I said before if we forget to turn the electrics on and open the slide without the fan running the smell is unbearable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian81 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 1. When we use it we ensure that the lid is closed before operating so any smells released are contained in the bowl. 2. I don't see how a SOG eliminates the danger from gas. If decomposing waste is generating gas it will be happening continuously so what use is a fan that comes on for a few seconds when the mechanism is operated? I can see the value of creating a brief airflow to outside the van. Surely dangerous gas will be generated especially when on the move aided by the vehicle motion, so what would be needed is a system that monitor pressure in the waste tank and when it rises switches on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 ian81 - 2009-08-26 7:24 PM 2. I don't see how a SOG eliminates the danger from gas. If decomposing waste is generating gas it will be happening continuously so what use is a fan that comes on for a few seconds when the mechanism is operated? I can see the value of creating a brief airflow to outside the van. With a SOG you have permanent ventilation to the outside of the van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 kontiki I'm also interested in an answer to lennyhb's question to you "On the 250 does the fan come on with the blade as well as the flush or do you need to give a short flush before opening the blade to reduce smells?" I had forgotten that I'd commented on Thetford's C-250 toilet when it was mentioned previously on the forum. See: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10861&posts=6 Although I've read articles on the C-250, I've never seen a description of how the ventilation-fan option operates automatically. Logically, the fan needs to extract air from within the toilet-bowl as soon as the toilet's blade-valve is opened (ie. as the SOG-system does) - otherwise, if the C-250's fan only extracts air automatically when the toilets 'rinse button' is pressed (as may be the case given your comment), I can't see any great merit in the automatic system. I can appreciate that a sequence of 1. Pressing the rinse-button briefly causing the fan to run for a timed duration. 2. Opening the toilet's blade-valve. 3. Using the toilet. 4. Closing the toilet's blade-valve. ... would work UK, but that's essentially 'manual' operation and I understood that the C-250's fan could also be triggered 'automatically'. A potential downside to Thetford's C-250 fan arrangement is that it vents air below the leisure vehicle, rather than through the vehicle's side via a hose (normally, with the SOG system, through the toilet-cassette locker's door). This will be fine when a C-250 is installed in a motorhome at the original conversion stage, but may well make retro-fitting the Thetford ventilation option impracticable. I note that a SOG 'kit' is offered for C-250 toilets, with the vent-hose attaching to the cassette's emptying-cap. I'm guessing from ian81's comment "we ensure that the lid is closed before operating" that he chooses to employ a 'domestic' toilet-usage technique that involves first running some water into the toilet bowl, then using the toilet, then opening the blade-valve to empty the water + waste. This differs from the method that (I suspect) most motorcaravanners use, where the toilet's blade-valve is opened before the toilet is used allowing waste to pass directly into the cassette. It's this latter technique that will (obviously) allow smells to emerge from the cassette and it's why the SOG system's fan operates automatically when the blade-valve is opened. This is an educational forum thread about toilet usage: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=12050&start=1 If anyone wants to delve more deeply into the SOG system, then a forum SEARCH using SOG/Derek Uzzell/All Posts will retrieve more information than you could shake an Air-Wick at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian81 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Derek thanks for your good and informative reply. I am of the conclusion that the answer lies in blade open or closed during 'the performance' We have always assumed that the 'correct' way was to fill the bowl then open the blade to flush. This minimises the time for odours to enter from the tank, I can see the logic of a SOG system and the need if you open the blade during use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 The problem using it with the blade closed for the male of the species is the splash back when standing having a P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kontiki Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 You forget to mention that the SOG only operates the fan when the blade is open, the C250 runs for about 3 to 5 minutes with a quick press of the button. Apart from the fact the c250 vents under the van to me there are no differences in the 2 systems. What I can confirm of having had a SOG & now having the C250 is the C250 seems to break down the solids more quickly (not that I have investigated this at depth) but from experience of having to sometimes rinse the cassette a couple of times to get rid of all the waste when using the SOG. To me either system works but I fail to see any advantage of fitting a SOG on a C250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 kontiki Perhaps you don't appreciate that cassette ventilation for a Thetford C-250 toilet is an option - a 'basic' C-250 does not have it. The ventilation option can (in principle) be retro-fitted to a basic C-250 toilet, but only if it's practicable for the 'fumes' to be vented beneath the motorhome. If a bog-standard C-250 has been installed in a platform-cab-based motorhome, retro-fitting the ventilation option might well mean cutting a hole through the steel under-floor - something few people would consider doing. That's when the side-wall-exhausting SOG kit could be used instead. I still don't understand how the C-250 ventilation system functions 'automatically' (which is what Thetford's advertising blurb says it can do). I'm not suggesting that the C-250's system doesn't work effectively, or is somehow inferior to the SOG system - I'd just like to know about the automatic aspect of it. Perhaps your C-250's ventilation system is manual-operation only, but I was under the impression that the fan could be operated manually or automatically. I was once told that the German patents relating to the SOG system were 'unbreakable', so that no other company could employ a toilet-cassette ventilation methodology that involved a 'suction' fan coming on automatically when the toilet's blade-valve was opened. If the C-250's ventilation technique functions differently, then plainly the two systems aren't the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I eventually found some operating instructions for the Thetford C-250 toilet automatic ventilation option. This was on Swift Group file http://www.swiftgroup.co.uk/uploads/HandBooks/caravans/Charisma%20family%20handbook/06%20Fitted%20Equipment.pdf The C-250 section contains the following advice: "Automatic Ventilator: The ventilator automatically starts when the control panel is activated (by pressing the flush button) and will automatically shut off after approximately 5 minutes. The Automatic Ventilator Indicator will flash until automatic shut-off occurs. If you want to stop the ventilator, press the Automatic Ventilator button. If you want to re-start the ventilator, press the button again (the LED will start flashing again)." Based on this description, I would suggest that C-250 ventilation is really "manual" (except for the fan's automatic shut-off) as you need to push a button to cause the fan to run, whereas SOG fan-operation is more "automatic", being triggered each time the valve in the base of the toilet-bowl is opened. Both arrangements have their pros and cons, so let's not quibble over semantic niceties. The SOG system claims to cause rapid disintegration of solid waste in the toilet cassette, thus removing a requirement for toilet chemicals. I've always felt this claim to be questionable, as solid waste liquefaction is bound to depend on how long the waste is in the cassette and how solid the waste was to begin with. I'm sure that nobody will believe that, if you use a SOG-fitted toilet for 'Number 2s' and then empty it 15 minutes later, the solid waste will have magically turned liquid during the interim. It may be worth noting that Thetford makes no such claim for the C-250 automatic ventilation option and continues to advise users to add toilet chemicals. (Well they would, wouldn't they?) However, if one chose not to use chemicals with a C-250 that had automatic ventilation, it wouldn't at all surprise me if solid-waste liquefaction were equal or superior to that of a SOG-fitted toilet. There's an interesting comparison report of three leisure-vehicle toilets (including the C-250) on: http://www.dometic.com/2bcf87a4-5424-48c2-bc3a-e8c7c94b0fa3.fodoc This includes, in the 'Comfort' section, the statement "Especially men criticised, for all three models, the lack of leeway for a certain part of male anatomy." Malicious things these toilets!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kontiki Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I think this 'automatic' & 'manual' is a bit of nit picking, on many toilets you have a button to press to flus the toilet. You could easily fit the small switch to the blade on the C-250 making it 'automatic' if you thought this was better, likewise you could fit a button with some sort of timer to the SOG to make it work for longer. I have had both & would recomend either as they both do the job. I agree that retrofitting the C-250 could cause some problems in some cases & the SOG has a version for all cassettes. I can also understand that Thetford would recomend using chemicals as well (they probably make more profit from them than the hardware) As for the time it takes to break down the solids in the toilet & they both work on the same principle of using the air drawn into the tank then it must be an advantage to have the air flow on for a longer time (not something I am prepared to experiment with) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 kontiki A couple of 'just out of interest' questions... 1. Do you use toilet chemicals with your C-250 toilet? 2. Where does the C-250 get its air from? With the SOG system, when the ventilation-fan runs air is sucked through the open blade-valve in the toilet bowl. Once the blade-valve is closed the fan ceases to run, although there is still an open passageway between cassette and the outside air. With the C-250 system, as there's no link between fan and blade-valve, it seems reasonable to assume that one can switch on the fan with the blade-valve closed. If that's the case, is there still a flow of air through the cassette to the fan? If air only flows through the cassette when a C-250 toilet's blade-valve is open, then I can't see what benefit there would be for the fan to continue to run after the blade-valve were closed. (I can see that I'll have to inspect a C-250 cassette closely next time I get the chance!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kontiki Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 1. Don't use chemicals in this toilet or when I had the SOG fitted. Have soem of the pink Thetford that you used to put into the flush tank so we have this in a spray bottle & use it to keep the bowl fresh. Have some cheap dental tablets & occasionally drop one into the cassette (tip off a German dealer to clean the tank & help keep down any smells) 2. Can't say I've bothered to investigate where the air (if any) comes in when the blade is closed, all I know is it works fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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