In the market for a new M/Home

[michele]

We need a new M/Home .

 

Suggestions please .

 

We need forward facing seats for the kids so that we can use Special needs harneses .

We like 6 birth.

We need a garage to take the wheelchair we would like as much room as possible hate feeling hemmed in .I suppose its all the crap we have to take .

 

We were thinking of the Bessie 789 any comments good/bad ?

 

What about this reverse gear lark .

any suggestions all help appreciated we certainly cant afford to get it wrong this time .

 

Thanks everyone .

[Guest Tracker]

Sorry to burst your bubble Michele but I personally wouldn't touch a Swift / Fiat product with a barge pole - even a very long barge pole!

 

Having seen the poor build quality, dubious construction methods and materials and dreadful design 'features' that have more to do with cost cutting expedience than with usefulness, on many Swift group vans of late I for one will be not be lining their pockets.

 

The Fiat saga is another story. There do seem to be some vans out there that will reverse uphill safely, that do not get misted up headlights and that don't leak rain water all over the engine. However there are without doubt a lot that do all or some of these things - do you want to take that chance?

 

And then there are the Fiat and the Swift very own legendary attitude to customer care?

 

Or you can believe the Caravan Club who reckon that all is sweetness and light in the Swift / Fiat camps.

 

Mind you the Caravan Club testers don't actually put their own money where their mouth is when they recommend these vans to us!

 

[michele]

Umh ,

 

Ok But , have to say so far the openess of Bessie is best suited to us .

If it was just me and him then we wouldnt mind the lack of space .

This is the best space wise we have seen so far .

[Guest Tracker]

Michele - far be for me to tell you how to spend your own money - heaven forbid and I wish you every success and hope that yours is the one that works perfectly!

 

Just be careful and maybe try and do a deal with a more local dealer of repute - if there is such a thing - maybe using Brown Stuff's best price offer as a bargaining tool?

[PJay]

Michele, wqhy do you need a new MH, whats wrong with the one you've got.? You'll lose so much on part exchange , and only three years old?

PJay

[trooper]

Hi Michele

I think the post slagging off both Fiat and swift is totally out of order,

Our last M/H was a Bessacarr(swift), and was very good based on old fiat, but did not suit us, we now have a Burstner based on new fiat with 3L engine, this has done around 17000 miles in 2 years, Totally trouble free, it does judder in reverse occasionally but I seem to be able to control this by careful use of the throttle and clutch.

If you go on the other good M/H website you may see very good remarks about swift, all the best in your search for your as near perfect as possible M/H.

Cheers

[mirage]

Read between the lines and make up your own mind, its the same old whingers with a chip on their shoulders. Unfortunately you can get a "Friday" van and even more unfortunately they are chiefly the ones you hear about.

 

[Guest Tracker]

mirage - 2009-07-12 7:56 PM

 

Read between the lines and make up your own mind, its the same old whingers with a chip on their shoulders. Unfortunately you can get a "Friday" van and even more unfortunately they are chiefly the ones you hear about.

 

Does he mean me! Sorry don't do chips - but I do do realism!

 

You only have to look at the way these things are built these days and compare them to the solidity of the older vans and draw your own conclusions.

 

Washroom basins you can't use when the door is shut.

 

Water taps and tanks that hang down ready to be smashed on a speed bump.

 

Flimsy cabinet materials

 

Step up/down in the middle of the van

 

Sorry - not for us!

 

[gordonaldson]

Hello Michele,

Just got to put a word in on this thread on behalf of Brownhills.

Stopped off at Brownhills, Hymer, Preston on saturday yesterday.

New Hymers for £49,995, not just one but a row of them, new front type too.

Sales chappy was passing and I said to him, "how can you's manage to reduce these Hymer's prices by £20,000. The pound has crashed against the Euro and I would expect the prices to go upwards the other way. You must be closing down or something".

His answer was well, plausable. "We bought these Hymers last year in 2008 before the crash and thats why we can give these discounts".

Whatever, they looked very desireable for £49,995 but I'm not rich at the moment.

Possible delivery here within days at least.

 

Hope this helps anyone.

Good luck.

[Guest peter]

Michele.......do yourself a favour and ignore the ignorant remarks of one of the nameless individuals who is paranoid about Swift and Fiat.

The person concerned is constantly slagging off these companies, even though, you will notice, they have not late experience of either.

Use your own and "Knowledgeable" judgement in your deliberations and you will stand a good chance of getting the correct van. :D

[Brian Kirby]

michele - 2009-07-12 6:35 PM Umh , Ok But , have to say so far the openess of Bessie is best suited to us . If it was just me and him then we wouldnt mind the lack of space . This is the best space wise we have seen so far .

Is this the same Michele who was very cross and disappointed with her present van when she first bought it.  I seem to remember complaints about things coming off (washroom door?) and rooflights that were the source of unacceptable draughts, and a few other things to boot?  If it is, I'm surprised you're queueing up for a second run! :-)

I'd have a long, slow, look around.  You've already got a van, so there is presumably no great rush.  I'd look at Mercedes Sprinter, Ford Transit and Iveco based vans, and I think I'd be a bit inclined to get me to Düsseldorf to see what is on offer there. 

I don't think you'll get what you want on a 3.5 tonne chassis, so if you're going to have to go for a PHGV van, go for one on a meaty chassis to start off, not one designed as a delivery van that is being worked at about 110% of the designer's original vision.

[Big Momma]

Michele, I have owned a Swift Kontiki 665 (6 berth, 7.5 metre long) from new since 2004. I have never had any problems with it, mechanically or with build quality. The coincidence is that just today myself and my OH have decided to buy a brand new M'Home next year (Probably our last and the one to see us through and beyond retirement). We are looking at the Swift Kontiki 669 (Low Profile Island Bed model). Not that this will be the van to meet your needs but just to say that whilst there is a certain engine type I would not touch, I have never encountered a problem with my Fiat Ducato 2.8 Diesel Engine ( and I know that this predates all the current issues around the 'judder'), however, the comments were also around build quality and as I have said, never had a problem and will, all things being equal and Swift answering my Email about some optional extras I would like, I will buy another Swift Kontiki on the Fiat Ducato Base with the 3 Litre 160 Multijet engine.

 

It is good to ask for advice from the wealth of knowledge there is from members on this forum. Hopefully you will receive good unbiased advice in which to make a reasoned and informed judgement and choice.

[davenewellhome]

For what its worth I agree with Brian's comments and buying a (LHD) abroad makes good sense as you spend most of your touring time over there if I remember correctly. You may have some trouble finding a continental van with a layout that suits though as many seem to be light on living space. Dusseldorf is a great place to see lots and lots of vans.

 

D.

[michele]

Brian Kirby - 2009-07-12 11:07 PM

michele - 2009-07-12 6:35 PM Umh , Ok But , have to say so far the openess of Bessie is best suited to us . If it was just me and him then we wouldnt mind the lack of space . This is the best space wise we have seen so far .

Is this the same Michele who was very cross and disappointed with her present van when she first bought it.  I seem to remember complaints about things coming off (washroom door?) and rooflights that were the source of unacceptable draughts, and a few other things to boot?  If it is, I'm surprised you're queueing up for a second run! :-)

I'd have a long, slow, look around.  You've already got a van, so there is presumably no great rush.  I'd look at Mercedes Sprinter, Ford Transit and Iveco based vans, and I think I'd be a bit inclined to get me to Düsseldorf to see what is on offer there. 

I don't think you'll get what you want on a 3.5 tonne chassis, so if you're going to have to go for a PHGV van, go for one on a meaty chassis to start off, not one designed as a delivery van that is being worked at about 110% of the designer's original vision.

YES THIS IS SHE BRIAN,I am still very cross with it Brian But PLEASE LISTEN ,,,,,,,,,,.................Apart from the fact that there were things wrong with it such as the bathroom door hasnever ever shut and the heki let in enough for england cold air .The heater dont work and all the other bits .I could of got this with any vehicle ..I personally would op for a merc but money is not in abundance ..All I want is something big enough to take us all with wheelchair with forward facing seat 's we tried the hobby and very nice it was too except we couldnt get our bums on the seats and the sauce bottles wouldnt fit in the cupboards so we lost alot of money for my big mistake in nagging him to get it in the first place .Its not that I want swift /fiat its that What is the point in having a vehicle that does not suit our needs there wouldnt be any point in that .Bessie is the only vehicle lay out that seems to have enough room to swing a cat when you have to take all the stuff we take .Also what we have found so far is when we get the forward facing seat 's layout we seem to loose a bed . The seats that they give for the forwrad facing layout do not seem to make up and adequate bed . If they do then they are lumps and bumps all over where the seats cushions do not fit .You think that there would be one manufacture out there that would come up with The four seats like a train facing each other so I can strap them in .Not the hobby seat as I have a fat bum :D And the garage on the back .And if its not asking too much when te four seats are put down enough room for a decent nights sleep .You see I have the problem of Rose is in the top bed over the cab I cannot let her sleep with Fred as Fred is too ill .I need the double for fred as I have to jump in with her often and when she has a bad night I want to make sure she does not fall out and hit the floor . And the back double is for hubby & me when its possible we need the three doubles .Help guys . have you seen anything that may serve our needs.Richard may have a fair point . I dont need to get upset by it he is only saying what he is entitled to say should he want to .I dont get into this thats a better van thats a good van business at the end of the day I will buy the best for us that suits our needs after all as I said no point getting something we cant use ..

[Brian Kirby]

Wasn't doubting your reasoning, Michele.  You know your needs better than any of the rest of us ever can - but I couldn't resist the tease!

I wasn't necessarily thinking LHD, as Dave assumed, just that Dusseldorf is the largest gathering of European made vans (except UK manufacturers) you can get to, so if what your are looking for is made outside UK, that is probably the best place to find it.  Many are available in RHD form, albeit at a premium that I don't think justified.

If made in UK, its not so difficult to access and view the vans.  Merc, as I suggested, is not the only potential contender.  An RWD Transit base might fit the bill, and there are a few on the Iveco, that I believe goes to somewhere around 4 tonnes.

I was wondering if you have looked at the Autotrails, some of which seem to me to have more beds and settees than many hotels!  The layouts also look fairly open on several of the variations, quality generally seems well respected, and the hi-lines have the extra luton bed.  However, it seems now only on Fiat base!  Still, if you go for the 3.0 litre, esp the auto, there seems little indication of a problem - although the price gets bumped up rather a lot!

I have no direct knowledge of Swift group vehicles, so can only base an opinion on what I read and see.  Those I have seen seem to have satisfied their owners, but I know quite a few have been less happy.  That seems to point to variable quality, in which case I think you need a very good dealer, near home, who will be prepared to sort the thing out properly before it is delivered, and go on sorting it out as and when.  For that level of service, I think you may have to concentrate more on the reputation of the firm, and maybe be prepared to forgo the best price.  At least if you make clear you are buying from Bloggs rather than Biggs, because of their reputation for good customer care, you should have a bit of moral leverage if it comes to a dispute.

Maybe turn your hunt on its head, and start with the dealers rather than the vans, and then see what the better reputed dealers have to sell?  If the dealer seems good to the customers, they can't sell too many dud vans, so maybe they hold franchises from the more consistent manufacturers.  Just a thought.

[messerschmitt owner]

Michelle

 

I 100% agree with you - you have to buy what suits you.

 

When we upgraded from our original Toyota Hiace, we were after some very specific requirements and it took us three months of trawling dealers to find it at a price we could afford.

 

THose who suggest a trip to Dusseldorf are right - see as many vans as you can and find the one with your spec, and that is easiest done at a show. Unfortunately, some of the bespoke converters like Machzone have gone but it may be worth exploring a custom build route.

 

The garage layout is great but in my experience you lose so much useable space inside the van as a result which isn't always made up for by having a fixed bed.

 

Our Rimor is a compromise of payload (over a tonne and a quarter) to useable space inside and our van is not a 'lounging' van as a result. However, I bought it for business purposes and those are what mattered most when we bought it. It is currently loaded with 25,000 antique postcards ready for us to go off to France and do two postcard fairs on our return journey home (as well as a scooter and two bikes), plus our clothes, etc. It is still over 0.5 tonne under our payload limit with all this aboard and under the axles weights front and back but as I said, space is at a premium for our ten days away.

My advice is to do a list of what you want and go find it. If you can't look at getting it built.

 

Both big motorhomes we have purchased have been bought with a list of requirements and both motorhomes have satisfied about 95% of what we wanted.

 

We'll await the report of a big continental motorhome show and the possible contendors.

 

have you looked at Eura mobils or considered a bespoke 'van.

 

[michele]

Thanks guys .

 

We wont be going to Dussledorf as it cost us a£1000 to take her out of the country hence the curtail in our travel this year .

That leads onto something else ,long live England dont get me started on that one.Eu huh.

 

Anyway someone has suggested the Kontiki 679 which can take the wheelchair and give us the two forward facing seats /garage.

 

I have also had a suggestion on the Swift 630 Suntour I am off to trawl the net to see if i can spot these two models.

I cannot for the life of me find a Bessie 789 apparently they only make them in 5 at atime . I phoned swift and the lady put me in touch with a dealer whom is showing on her system as a stockist I phoned BUt guess what he dont stock them haha.......

 

I give up already

:D .

 

I would love to go and take a long leisurely look but thats the hardest thing in the world to do when you dont have specialised childminders and no one to help . I think thats why I bought the Hobby in a rush big costly mistake I hope not to repeat .

 

maybe we could find one that has the seats we want but maybe not the garage maybe we could tow a little trailer big enough to take the wheelchair ?.

[Guest Tracker]

peter - 2009-07-12 10:04 PM

The person concerned is constantly slagging off these companies, even though, you will notice, they have not late experience of either.

:D

 

Does he mean me I wonder!

 

Not quite true Peter - whilst it is true that I do not have experience of having bought and owned one of these vans, I do have considerable experience as a motor caravanner, and as a driver of many hundreds of thousands of miles in all manor of vehicles over many years, and as having experienced several test drives as a potential customer of Swift/Fiat. Not quite so ignorant eh?

 

I do recognise good quality when I see it - and I also recognise it's absence when I don't see it as well.

 

The reasons that I don't have experience as an owner of one of these vans have been clearly stated already - and many of these reasons not only come from my own experience but they also come from the unfortunate experiences of others who do own one!!

 

I'm not saying they are all bad as it would appear that both your own and Henry's are not as you keep reminding us - not that you have a Swift I notice - so what qualifies you to defend them?

 

What I am specifically saying is that I would not buy one and anyone interested in buying one should be aware of the potential design and build flaws and use their own best judgement by drawing information from as many sources as possible on the chosen dealer, the chosen converter and the chosen base vehicle before buying one and this applies to all vans not just Fiat / Swift.

 

The observations of Nick at Euroserv as one who does have considerable experience of X250s is particularly enlightening.

 

Ignorance belongs to those who fail to research and to those who slag off other people instead of dealing with the subject matter at hand.

 

 

[rupert123]

If you want a more balanced view of Swift look over on MHF forum. I have had two and would agree with Rich about their customer service, if he was talking about three years ago, he seems paranoid about them. In the past few years things have changed completely and they are now probably the best around for service. The fittings in all vans are much the same bought from just a handful of suppliers so why pay inflated prices for a German product like Hymer who are living on past reputation. The Fiat part with certain reservations I would not worry about it is still the best base around. Reservations, I would be carefull about the current 130bhp six speed with a heavy van, make sure the base vehicle is one of the modified ones. Other than that a good choice.

[michele]

Would anyone be so kind as to put it in plain English for a dosy cow ?

 

What I mean is am I going to have trouble with the reversing

Am I going to have trouble with water gate shuttle stuff ?If i buy the new Fiat /swift group ?.

 

help dont confuse me what ever you put i always tell hubby he just hasnt got the time to do the forum but he does listen to what you all say .

Would be grateful for plain english as when i try to explain ,well you all know me I will cock it up.

 

 

Have managed to find a Kontiki 679 so we are off for a look at it .

Please tell me now what we should look for ,this is the last we will buy as we wont be able to afford another .

Thanks again

[euroserv]

Hi Michele,

 

I don't have a camper, I run vans, lots of vans.

 

In simple terms; I would suggest that you go ahead and look at the vehicle and make sure it ticks all the right boxes for you then turn your attention to the chassis. Drive it.

The X250 Fiat has a problem with the reverse gear being too high. This will have two effects that you will notice.

 

1. When you have lifted the clutch pedal fully up and are reversing you may find that you are travelling rather too fast for comfort and safety in a large vehicle. Do you feel in control of it?

2. If you are reversing up anything more than a gentle slope you may notice a vibration or judder. If you do notice it, as have many other people (but not all) you have to make a choice. This problem will not go away, it will get worse and may cause you to be stranded when the clutch fails, there is no fix for it that works and Fiat do not seem to be trying to fix it any more. This is your choice but I would suspect that your unique circumstances would make this a bit too risky.

 

If there is no problem while reversing you may have found a good one; Or not. Nobody really knows.

 

The water ingress problem was supposedly fixed when the cover that was over the top of your 2.8 engine was fitted to the 2.3 and 3.0 engines. It was penny pinching at it's worst. In reality though, the risk that injectors will become seized if they get damp will apply regardless of any leaky seals or missing covers is a total red herring because they will seize anyway. Whenever a steel part is fitted into aluminium corrosion occurs and they become difficult to separate. Fiat is no worse than any other manufacurer. Ask Dave Newell if he has ever had any trouble removing an injector from a common rail Renault and you will get the picture.

 

There are gearbox issues, engine management woes and other things about the X250 Fiats (Peugeots and Citroens) that bother me but not the sorts of things that you need to concern yourself with during the 30,000 to 40,000mile lifetime of the average camper.

 

I hope that this helps you to make an informed choice about the base vehicle; Richard and the others are better able to advise you on the internal parts of the conversion but from what I have read and seen I would recommend that you can close the washroom door behind you and it is sometimes beneficial to be able to turn around in the shower without bumping into every surface but perhaps I am being picky.

 

Nick

[Brian Kirby]

"What I mean is am I going to have trouble with the reversing?"

Unless you get a 3 litre auto version, the answer is possibly.  Drivers of all other versions of the engine (including Peugeot badged) with manual transmission have experienced the juddering problem.  Not every van by any means, and the 2.3 litre six speed does seem the worst, but the possibility exists.  It is a risk: it seems no-one can be confident that a given van won't judder, until it has been reversed up a fairly steep hill fully laden - though some seem to judder on slight inclines even when empty.  You are looking for a large van, so it will be heavy, and so, on present evidence, more susceptible to judder.  That is the best that can be said.  To avoid the problem, avoid the Sevel vans.  Otherwise, to quote Clint Eastwood "you feeling lucky, Punk?"  :-)

"Am I going to have trouble with water gate shuttle stuff ?  If i buy the new Fiat /swift group ?." 

The water thing should have been eliminated on new vans, existing stock on dealer's forecourts maybe not.  By the way, it's a scuttle, not a shuttle, and "Watergate" was Nixon, not Fiat - though they seem to be working on their own version!  :-)

Instead of spending all your time running around the UK dealers looking for this van and that, couldn't you get to Birmingham, or even Earls Court, to see just one UK show.  You don't need to buy there (probably best not to), but you will see pretty much all of them in one place, which makes the comparisons much easier.  It is knackering, and you need quite a bit of time, but it must be the safest way to evaluate what is on offer, what their quality is like, and how one compares with another in general terms.

[Brock]

For what it is worth, Michele, I've always believed in finding a good dealer. That's half the battle because if things do go wrong, they will try and help you.

The other piece of advice is to watch Michael Macintyre's comedy show from Brighton on BBCi player. He does a wonderful bit about buying a holiday. Basically, he says you get all enthusiastic about buying a holiday until you read one bad review. It's the same with motorhomes. We tend to focus on one bad experience someone's had and ignore the thousands of good experiences. The average Joe or Jane do not shout out about their reliable van. They are too busy enjoying it.

Unfortunately, in Fiat's case there seems to be thousands of bad experiences with the new base model and at first, scant regard by Fiat for fixing the problems. Now they tend to be sorted although old stock may not. A good dealer will not deny the Fiat problems but should be able to provide proof the van of your dreams has been suitably modified to correct the problems.

It has always been sound advice not to buy a base vehicle, unless you have to or have time to sort out inevitable faults, until it has been proven to be trouble free for a couple of years.

Many will recommend Ford Transit bases. Great vans? My son's 03 van has clocked up just over 700,000 (yes seven hundred thousand miles). He's had several new engines, gearboxes and other bits in that time but the van's reliability is great. His firm also have two Transits less than one year old which are off the road with faults (usually clutch failure - something to do with a bit of plastic that melts and ruins the clutch assesmbly) on almost a weekly basis. One of the motorhome magazines voted the Tranny its base vehicle of the year. Try telling that to my son's boss who loses c£250 everyday one of them is off the road.

One final piece of advice. When you make a decision, write down why you made it. All the things you considered and all the plus points. Then, if the van does go wrong, you're just the victim of bad luck, not a victim of poor judgement. We all have to take risks.

[michele]

Brian you made me laugh :D shuttle scuttle all the same in my world :D

Euroserv & Brock thank you so much .

 

When hubby gets in I will get him to read this I thinks .

 

:D Gonna be al ot of looking mind you if I cant get a good enough deal then thats it .Maybe we will keep this one although I dont know how with the bench seats .

[robertandjean]

Michel,

Do not be put off a Swift on Fiat base. Our new Swift Escape on the 100 multijet 5 speed Fiat base is great. Just back from France, where coming face to face with a 2.5 m bridge (thanks Tom Tom!) meant a reverse up a steep gravel incline. No judder then or at any other time. Only three minor faults with conversion, alarm needed adjustment, light over bed not working and small piece of trim on bathroom worksurface needed sticking back. All these were quickly put right by supplying dealer, Brownhills. So there you are a Swift, on a Fiat supplied by Brownhills and we are happy!!! Maybe we are just lucky or we made a good judgement call, given the deal on offer.