Fiat's Euro 5 Engine - Any more info Andy?

[Vernon B]

Quote from a very recent post by Andy Stothert on the "You know What Thread"

 

"Rumours from Italy suggest that when the Euro 5 engines are announced (was meant to be November, but now delayed) then the gearbox will be sorted out. "

 

This partially ties in with a rumour I heard that Fiat's 2.3 Litre unit isn't made by them and is about to be dropped. The prosects of a Euro 5 unit coming out within the next six months could be an even more powerful reason for people not buying Fiat at the moment. I have in mind here the way the "save the world lobby" is getting governments to impose tighter and tighter limits on emissions and through that policy make many diesel engine obsolete or illegal.

 

So more news on this Andy might improve your chances of "doing for Fiat" and keeping the M/H public better informed.

 

V

 

[euroserv]

Hello Vernon, and all.

 

Earlier this year I made the mistake of assuming that Euro 5 was due to be enforced in all classes of vehicles in September 2009. In actual fact, the introduction had been staggered and is possibly the most stupid introduction of an emissions standard to date.

 

Judge for yourselves;

 

Passenger cars: September 2009 (Petrol and Diesel) with euro 6 from September 2014 although interestingly there is no difference in the allowable emissions from euro 5 to 6 for petrol engines!

 

Light commercials GVW<1305kg: same as passenger cars.

 

Commercials GVW 1305 - 1760kg: Euro 5 Sept 2009, Euro 6 Sept 1015.

 

Commercials GVW 1760 - 3500kg as above but with higher emissions limits allowed.

 

After this it gets very confusing because there are several different types of heavy goods vehicles 3500kg and over. It seems to me that from 3500kg to 7500kg the introduction of Euro 5 is now and that over 7.5T it was introduced last year!

 

Anyway, back to the question!

 

The 2.3 engine is the Iveco F1A and the 3.0 is the F1C. Both are produced by Fiat Powertrain Technologies (FPT) as are all of the Iveco truck engines plus more than half of the world's marine, construction and power generation units.

 

Although there is no firm information regarding Fiat's intentions regarding the 2.3 engine I now expect that it will carry on to Euro 5 because the sister vehicle (Iveco Daily) will definitely be using this unit past Euro 5 with a wider range of power outputs than currently available. They are jumping the gun and are introducing Euro 5 models as we speak but that is because the Daily is made as 3000kg right up to the recently announced 7000kg and some of the range has to be Euro 5 already. Fiat can wait until next year to introduce theirs except for the 4000kg version which i suspect is suspended at the moment.

 

What does this mean?

 

My best guess is that there will still be a 2.3 engine next summer, and the summer after that and it will most likely have pretty much the same gearbox as it has now. If they decide to launch a lower powered 3.0 they won't do it until the latter part of 2010 unless everyone stops buying the 2.3 (!!). That is the one I am looking forward to because our 3.0 vans have been absolutely without fault; they are just too damned expensive over the 2.3 to be attractive enough. 140hp 3.0 for £500 over the 2.3 anybody?

 

So sorry that I can't give you better news.

 

Nick

 

[bobalobs]

Nick.

And who manafactures the 2.2 litre 6 speed peugeot engine and gearbox as from Andys recent comments it appears there is now a lower gear ratio fitted? Dont tell me it is Fiat!!!

[euroserv]

The 2.2 engine is known as 'Puma' and is a joint venture with Peugeot and Ford. It also appears in the transit and mondeo. It is made in France by Peugeot. Although the engine and gearbox is used in the lower powered Ducato and Boxer it is only available in 5 speed. None of the gearboxes are interchangeable between 2.3 and 2.2 engines. If Peugeot have reduced the reverse gear ratio or final drive of the 2.2 6 speed this will have been engineered by Peugeot alone.

 

Nick

[bobalobs]

Nick.

Many thanks for the immediate response. We ordered a replacement van back in may 2008 for delivery a year later for our wedding anniversary/early retirement . Murvi agreed to delay delivery for a year and we are reluctant to pay a substantial amount more for a 3 litre sowhat was to be a celebration has become a pain. Perhaps we shou ld stick with our seven year old 2.8Jtd which goes like a train and spend the money saved on travel and vino!! Thank you again.

Robert and Angela.

 

 

[euroserv]

You are most welcome.

 

That is what I would do. Your 2.8 will be more economical too!

 

It is very sad because the x250 is in every area that counts a brilliant vehicle. It is queter on the move than any other cab, and better made than the old vans. In my humble opinion the 3.0 is well worth the extra money in terms of refinement and the effortless way that it goes about it's business, without a significant fuel economy penalty over the 2.3 ; just too risky at the moment until the gearbox issue is resolved.

 

The price premium for the 3.0 over the 2.3 is £1650 from the factory and the Comfort matic is £1155 extra on top of that. Do the camper dealers charge you all of that or do you get a slice of the 35-45% discount that the converter gets? Just curious.

 

Happy camping!

 

Nick

[emmbeedee]

Hi, Nick (Euroserv).

Are you sure that the Puma engine is made in France? According to Wikipedia, these are made at Dagenham. Or is there another production line in France? One other thing, I believe the 2.2 litre engine (code ZSD422) is actually 2198 cc, not 2184 cc as stated in Wiki.

I'll attempt to post the info:

 

ZSD ("Puma")

Code Years Displacement (bore x stroke)/Type Power@rpm torque@rpm

ZSD-420 2000-2001 2 L (1998 cc, 122 cu in) (?x?) I4 115 PS (113 hp/85 kW) 280 N·m (207 lb·ft)

ZSD-420 (Duratorq TDDi) 2001-2002 2 L (1998 cc, 122 cu in) (?x?) I4 130 PS (128 hp/96 kW) 330 N·m (243 lb·ft)

ZSD-420 (Duratorq TDCi) 2002- 2 L (1998 cc, 122 cu in) (?x?) I4 115 PS (113 hp/85 kW) 285 N·m (210 lb·ft)

ZSD-422 ? 2.2 L (2184 cc, 133 cu in) (?x?) 155 PS (153 hp/114 kW) I4 355 N·m (262 lb·ft)

ZSD-422 (Duratorq TDCi) ? 2.2 L (2184 cc, 133 cu in) (?x?) I4 85 PS (84 hp/63 kW) 250 N·m (184 lb·ft)

ZSD-422 (Duratorq TDCi) ? 2.2 L (2184 cc, 133 cu in) (?x?) I4 115 PS (113 hp/85 kW) 300 N·m (221 lb·ft)

ZSD-422 (Duratorq TDCi) ? 2.2 L (2184 cc, 133 cu in) (?x?) I4 140 PS (138 hp/103 kW) 350 N·m (258 lb·ft)

ZSD-424 (Duratorq TDCi) ? 2.4 L (2402 cc, 147 cu in) (?x?) I4 100 PS (99 hp/74 kW) 285 N·m (210 lb·ft)

ZSD-424 (Duratorq TDCi) ? 2.4 L (2402 cc, 147 cu in) (?x?) I4 115 PS (113 hp/85 kW) 310 N·m (229 lb·ft)

ZSD-424 (Duratorq TDCi) ? 2.4 L (2402 cc, 147 cu in) (?x?) I4 140 PS (138 hp/103 kW) 375 N·m (277 lb·ft)

2.5 (WLC) (Duratorq TDCi) 2006- 2.5 L (2499 cc, 152 cu in) (93 mm (3.7 in)x92 mm (3.6 in)) I4 143 PS (141 hp/105 kW)@3500 330 N·m (243 lb·ft)@1800

3.0 (WEC) (Duratorq TDCi) 2006- 3 L (2953 cc, 180 cu in) (96 mm (3.8 in)x102 mm (4 in)) I4 156 PS (154 hp/115 kW)@3200 380 N·m (280 lb·ft)@1800

3.2 (Duratorq TDCi) 2006- 3.2L (?x?) I5 200 PS (197 hp/147 kW) 470 N·m (347 lb·ft)

 

Codenamed Puma during development, these Ford 2.0 L, 2.2 L, and 2.4 L engines are called ZSD. They are produced at the company's Dagenham plant in East London

 

[euroserv]

This happens quite a lot and is a marketing smoke screen to make you think that the different vehicles have different engines. Fiat/PSA call it 2198, I don't have Ford data to hand. I can only say that the 2.2 used in x250 is made in France, I understand that the 2.0 is made in Dagenham for Ford and until recently for Jaguar, and in France for PSA. The 2.4 is actually not from the same engine family and is only made by Ford in Dagenham. The other joint venture engines are 1.6 diesels for cars which now also show up in Mini and the 2.7 used in Land Rover and Jaguar is the same engine used in Citroen and Peugeot cars.

 

Fiat, incidentally make 1.3 litre diesels that are used by Ford, Vauxhall and Suzuki. Their 1.9 and 2.0 diesels are found in Vauxhall, Saab, Cadillac and of course Alfa Romeo and will soon be appearing in Chrysler and possibly even Mercedes (but you won't find that on Wikipedia).

 

Nick

 

 

[urbanracer]

I also read some time ago the puma was made in Dagenham and shipped to Italy maybe there is also a French engine factory.

Came across this recently

 

Dagenham Tooling and Stamping produce 145,000 panels every day.

 

Dagenham's Tiger engine (1.4 & 1.6) is used by Ford, Mazda and Volvo.

 

Its Lion engine (2.7, 3.0 V6 & 3.6 V8) is used by Jaguar, Land Rover, Peugeot and Citroen.

 

The Dagenham-made Lynx engine (1.8) powers the UK's best selling car, the Focus, and is adaptable for marine use.

 

The Puma engine (2.0, 2.2 & 2.4) is used by Jaguar, Land Rover and in commercial vehicles from Ford, Peugeot-Citroën and Fiat.

 

Engines made in Dagenham are shipped to Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Turkey, Russia and Japan.

 

It was in a report about Dagenham being 80 years old.

[colin]

euroserv - 2009-09-09 2:05 PM

The price premium for the 3.0 over the 2.3 is £1650 from the factory and the Comfort matic is £1155 extra on top of that. Do the camper dealers charge you all of that or do you get a slice of the 35-45% discount that the converter gets? Just curious.

Curiourosity killed the cat! Heres Adrias 2009 price list.these should be inc VAT

[urbanracer]

Hi euroserv

I want to remove the front grill panel on a x 250 I can see 4 bolts at the top are there any other fastnings or does it lift out?

[Vernon B]

euroserv - 2009-09-07 4:18 PM

 

After this it gets very confusing because there are several different types of heavy goods vehicles 3500kg and over. It seems to me that from 3500kg to 7500kg the introduction of Euro 5 is now and that over 7.5T it was introduced last year!

 

 

What does this mean?

 

My best guess is that there will still be a 2.3 engine next summer, and the summer after that and it will most likely have pretty much the same gearbox as it has now. If they decide to launch a lower powered 3.0 they won't do it until the latter part of 2010 unless everyone stops buying the 2.3 (!!). That is the one I am looking forward to because our 3.0 vans have been absolutely without fault; they are just too damned expensive over the 2.3 to be attractive enough. 140hp 3.0 for £500 over the 2.3 anybody?

 

So sorry that I can't give you better news.

 

Nick

 

Thanks for these insider snippets Nick, although it sounds like the stuff of nightmares for joe public - particularly those with 3.5t+ 'vans. It's pretty clear from your comments that an EU Quango is in full flow and it won't be satisfied until a complete can of worms has been produced. And since every member state will be keen to max out on stealth taxes in the next decade, we can all look out!

 

V

 

 

[euroserv]

Thanks for that Colin. I suspected you were being ripped off but that is just nasty!

 

It would appear that they are just about doubling the price that they pay after discount from Fiat. There is probably something in EU law to prevent them from selling the options at above the retail price. I don't know but i also don't know why you have all tolerated this for so long.

 

Air con is £835 + VAT and Climate control is £1060 + VAT currently and they will be getting at least 35-45% off that. Alloy wheels are £430 - £470 +VAT from the factory.

 

I would not feel the least bit sorry for the greedy coachbuilders if they got stuck with thousands of unsold 2.3 Fiats. Here's hoping.

 

Nick

[euroserv]

Hi Urban racer,

 

Once the four screws are removed you pull the panel up and towards you at the same time to disengage the clips down the sides. Then you need a flat screwdriver or wider plastic tool to lift the bottom part out of the bumper. They almost always pop out of the grille and sometimes break but as long as a couple are fit to go back in again the grille will sit securely.

Good luck, whatever you are up to!

 

Nick