More on batteries please

[libby]

I looked into Halfords today at leisure batteries. They have a Halfords lable 110a/h with a two year guarrantee.

 

They also have a Bosch (I think) 100a/h with a five years gurantee.

 

The Halfords labled was much dearer, but I thought the 2 year limit was not a good selling point.

 

Questions - (1) I presume cost relates to a/h size. (2) What causes a battery to deteriate, is it heavy use, little use, no use or storage temperature. (3) I assume as a battery begins to fail the a/h time reduces according to the cell failure. (4) I have had engine batteries last donky's years WHY.

 

And who has had the longest running leisure batteries???

 

Bill

 

[hallii]

Batteries are built to a price, but Bosch have a good name.

 

I would pay more for a Bosch labelled battery.

 

But then I rate Varta even higher,

 

You pays your money and you takes your chance!

 

Geoff

[Brambles]

Bosch and Varta batteries are the same company - owned by Johnson Controls.

 

Forget Halford batteries they are overpriced.

If you want best quality v Price probably Varta is your best option.

You have not said if you are looking for a starter battery, leisure or indeed both. ( I think you mentioned both on another thread For leisure I would recommend the Varta Semitraction leisure.

http://www.varta-automotive.com/index.php?id=235

available http://www.tayna.co.uk/catalog/285/0/Leisure-Batteries-Varta-Leisure-Batteries-page1.html

Don't worry about the name 'Hobby' on Varta site, they are the same batteries, and also note the 80Ah is rated 70Ah on Tayna site - slight error...it is an 80.

 

For Engine, again Varta (or Bosch) and there are a choice of a few technologies. For the latest vehicles e.g. x250 with its heavy power drain when parked up the Varta Ultra Dynamic is best.

For older vehicles with diesel engines go for Varta Blue.

For cheerful reliable heaps (please excuse my terminology) Varta black or even Numax for budget.

batteries.

 

Delphi are also very good batteries. There are numerous other battery brands and many are very good and very good prices but home work is needed on their source and who makes them. Hence why I stick with Varta as they make many of the branded ones anyway. Yuasa are also a respected brand, again making batterries for other people, and they do from budget to top , and Numax are at the budget end but one of the better budget brands.

 

So thats my opinion. Oh and forget Elecsol if you are told they are top notch - its marketing hype and unfortuately is believed...They are made by Centurion Accu in the Netherlands - a good battery, very close to the Varta but slighly less capacity and so why pay a premium just for flannel and a guarantee very difficult to claim on.

Another reason for Varta or Bosch is you can take it back to any of their stockists under warranty and get a replacement.

 

What kills a battery or reduces its life? Main cause is neglecting maintenance and topping up. Also leaving standing below the sulphation voltage which is about 12.25 to 12.4 volts . So keep it charged above 12.5/12.6 volts so it does not sulphate. This is where lead sulphate which forms on the plates when it discharges by the nature iof how a battery works starts to harden. Rather than being soft crystals which readily convert back to lead on the plates they harden with age and wil not disolve and convert back to lead when charged. They build up and can eventually insulate the plates, and also cause l localised curemst in teh battery making lead fall off to teh bottom of the cell shorting it.

Over charging is bad news as well, typical with some Solar panel systems. The batteries gas too much and consumes water and erodes the lead plates.

 

Heat and vibration - unfortuately not a lot you can do about this on a Med holiday on rough roads so a battery with reinforced plates is desired.

The better more expensive batteries will have stronger plates, whereas the cheaper budget brands will not. They tend to have an expanded mesh grid and not a cast or stamped plate which is stronger and usually thicker and harder material and copes better with starter motor currents.

 

 

Engine Batteries can last a long time because mostly there is very little demand on it except when starting It is a very high current for a short time but actually very little discharge in Ah terms.

 

Initially for the 1st few cycles the Ah available increases, but after that the Ah available reduces with every cycle. The deeper it is discharge the more and quicker the battery deteriorates. The longer you leave before recharging the more deterioration will take place. An example would be someone without hook up watching TV for two hours in the afternoon and not driving and charging the battery until the next morning. The other person watching TV for 2 hours late at night and then drives off in the morning. The afternoon watcher's battery will deteriorate a lot faster.

 

Batteries also age just through time and left siitting even despite being kept topped up. What happens is the acid concentration falls to the bottom of the cells. In other words the acid comes out of even solution with the water diluting it. A stronger acid forms at the bottom and weaker at the top. This is not good for a battery, too strong an acid erodes the plates and the weaker acid at the top causes sulphation (think I have that the right way). When you charge normally you need some gassing to take place by being fully charged. This gassing mixes the acid concentration...thats good, and you need a bit of overcharge to balance the cells. This is called equalisation. If one cell is not fully charged it brings it up to full charge whilst slightly overcharging the others. Overcharging does not mean they are storing more charge - they are gasing and no extra energy is stored, the energy going into converting the acid into hydrogen and oxygen.

 

Enough is enough, I have now bored you to death in the hope you do not ask anymore questions on batteries ;-) .

Actually there is a lot more yet to batteries, but above is some of the basics. Just remember, keep acid topped up with distilled water, keep charged up, do not over discharge and do not leave partially discharged.

 

 

Hope this all helps.

Jon.

(do I have to read every thing I have written to proof check it before posting -- shall just leave any typos - its late!!)

 

 

[Brambles]

hallii - 2009-09-10 10:05 PM

 

Batteries are built to a price, but Bosch have a good name.

 

I would pay more for a Bosch labelled battery.

 

But then I rate Varta even higher,

 

You pays your money and you takes your chance!

 

Geoff

 

Hi,

 

You rate Varta even higher, maybe that is why Varta make the Bosch Batteries. Johnson Contols own Varta and then bought the battery business from Bosch.

[Brambles]

I should have added also that Johnson Controls also took over Deplhi Batteries in 2005. I am not sure if Delphi Batteries are the same as well now or not. Probably are as one of the reasons for amalgamating all the businesses was to create common supply chains for sourcing batteries in Europe and around the world and each supplier/factory could concentrate on fewer types of battery over the required range. This actually lead to better cost controls and more competative prices for the consumer to challenge the cheap supply of batteries from China and Vietnam.

 

Jon.

 

Jeeee, I am the battery equivalent of a train spotter...what a nerd I am becoming, but batteries have always been something that has interested me since when I was about 12 years old I aquired an old car battery and rejuvinated it as a 12 volt source of power. In the days of solid lead and beefy plates you could do thngs like flush it out an replace the acid, making it good again. Try that now and you wash out all the lead paste on the plates and kill it dead. (true traction excepted - but will cost you an awful lot more for true traction -- but worth it of you full time.)

 

...bet the next question is about gel batteries and are they worth it.

Answer -- no.

[Melvin]

I have an 110 amp Elecsol battery fitted to my 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660, the first battery gave up the ghost virtually from day one. The battery was replaced under the vans warranty, as far as I am concerned it rubbish. We only use the motorhome in the spring/summer and always use hook up sites, with very little use as regards the lights (they are LED). The telly runs on mains, but despite this overnight the battery need to be recharged.

 

I was entertaining fitting an additional Elecsol 110 amp, but now I am confused.

[Brambles]

Melvin - 2009-09-11 9:31 AM

 

I have an 110 amp Elecsol battery fitted to my 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660, the first battery gave up the ghost virtually from day one. The battery was replaced under the vans warranty, as far as I am concerned it rubbish. We only use the motorhome in the spring/summer and always use hook up sites, with very little use as regards the lights (they are LED). The telly runs on mains, but despite this overnight the battery need to be recharged.

 

I was entertaining fitting an additional Elecsol 110 amp, but now I am confused.

 

When laid up long term, something is draining the battery over a period of time. This is normal to have a low drain on the battery so when laying up unless you have a method of keeping it charged you need to disconnect it. The result is you have a ruined battery as it will have sulphated. Elecsol seem to claim or imply their batteries do not sulphate , which is absolute tosh, they do.

 

Even if that is not the case, it still sounds like your battery is ruined and so has very little capaciy left. Another possibility is it is just not being charged properly which wil also have ruined it.

 

An Elecsol 110 is not 110 Ah, I think it 95 Ah. the 100 is 90Ah, and the 70 is 60Ah. This is at the normal way of rating at C/20. They have used the numbers for C/100 discharge so is artistic licence.

They also say 1000 cyles at 80% depth of discharge -- they do not define depth of discharge but I sure it aint the normal used -- more like 20%. I think they base it on depth of discharge to 12.4 volts when sulphation starts. If it is , then it is an absurd way of making their spec look good.

 

 

 

 

[lennyhb]

Hi Brambles,

 

Being a battery nerd I'm surprised you haven't mentioned AGM Batteries as they have the advantage of being capable of supplying high currents for starting and also withstand deep cycling for leisure use.

They also have a much longer life than standard lead acid batteries and nowdays reasonably priced.

 

A lot useful about battery's etc. here:-

 

http://www.mpoweruk.com/leadacid.htm

 

 

 

[Brambles]

Being a battery nerd is the very reason I have not mention AGM. They have a lot of advantages for certain applications but equally have disadvantages. Standard flooded which is 'semi sealed' so can be maintained is the best option unless you need AGM for a particular application... like a boat.

 

Remember maintenance free for life, means if you do not maintain you should get a reasonable life, so for those who do not know how or can be bothered then yes, AGM and gel can be a good choice.

 

 

[lennyhb]

Brambles - 2009-09-11 11:30 AM

 

 

Remember maintenance free for life, means if you do not maintain you should get a reasonable life, so for those who do not know how or can be bothered then yes, AGM and gel can be a good choice.

 

 

Ideal in a lot of Motorhomes like mine where the leisure batteries are under each of the cab seats and impossible to get at & you wouldn't want them leaking.

 

 

[libby]

Brambles ... Lenny ... etc ... Anoraks, Nerds or whatever you like is exactly what these forums are about, someone who did it for fun originaly and is prepared to tell all to those who ask.

 

Some of us have to keep asking the same questions as we have diminishing brain cells, so please, stick at it and tell all again and again. The world is full of devious items set up to catch us out. Thanks Bill

[Brambles]

Hi Bill. Kind words indeed.

Just had a thought - remember to check thr hold down method used on thr battery. e.g thr Halfords battery does not appear to have clamping lugs around base of the battery requiring a bar clamped over the top.

What method hold your batterry in place? Also check which way round the +ve and -ve terminals are. There is nothing worse when comming to replace having to then extend the cables.

Also check the venting arrangement - shoud have a vent either end, one will be plugged and the other has the elbow for the vent tube. They can be swapped around.

Jon.

[Brambles]

Hi again.

 

If the Halfords 110 Ah battery is as it apperas in the pic on their website it also does not appear to have a central ventilating system and each plug will have a vent built in. This is no use for the majoriy of Motorhome aplications.

It may well have recombination plugs fitted, I do not know, but even so they get used up and so after a certain amount of use or when being overcharged ( easy in hot climates) then the excess gases can not be piped away from interior of Motorhome. So no use as Dang errr oooos.

[Sssnake]

Thank you kind people, espec Brambles for answering all the questions I wanted to ask but were too embarassed to!

[RupertGS]

Here's a question for the people who obviously know a lot more about batteries than I do.

I am fortunate in that I store my motorhome in a secure barn on my property. This of course means that the solar panel doesn't work!

I'd like to be able to forget it for a few weeks at a time and am considering leaving it plugged in but setting a timer to periodically charge the batteries.

I have a Battery Master fitted by the way so can leave it switched to 'leisure battery charge' knowing that the vehicle battery will also be topped up.

So, after boring you with all that, my question is: What's best? Charging say, every day for three or four hours, or once a week overnight?

Before anyone tells me that I shouldn't leave it sitting there for too long, I do take it for a good run every five or six weeks.

[malc d]

Thanks Brambles for all that info.

 

 

 

.... and RupertGS: how about a solar panel on the roof of the barn ?

( Just a thought).

 

 

 

 

 

:-|

[Brambles]

Rupert, not knowing how much discharge you have for standby currents when laid up its a difficult one to answer. very much dedends on how much drain there is from both the leisure and engine batteries, but I would have thought 1 hour a day would suffice. 4 hours a day is way too much. As to doing weekly, again depends on total drain over a week.

Ideal is to have a trickle charger supplying any standby currents to vehicle and enough left over to maintain 30 to 50 mamps to keep batteries conditioned with a full charge. Next best is to replace any drain plus a bit be it weekly or daily. Problem with this is your batteries are then doing work all the time. The fuller the battery is whilst doing that work the less wear there is, so better to top up daily than weekly, but not too much to excessively overcharge every day. You could even go for a compromise, like 15 mins a day, plus a longer charge once a week of say 4 hours, or whatever it takes to fully charge.

 

This does not help answer does it?????

[duffers]

7 years - on last leisure battery, regular use, tlc, and just dead lucky I guess

 

:D

[RupertGS]

Thank you Brambles for your help. I just want to leave my EHU lead plugged in to a timer switch, so it would appear that little and often is better than once a week.

I shall start on say an hour a day and monitor it. If that doesn't keep them topped up I can increase the time until I find the optimum period.

[Guest peter]

I had a pair of Chloride batteries last 11 Yrs on my boat. Lucky or what?.

[lennyhb]

Changed the battery on my wife's car last year it was only 9½ years old.

[Brambles]

...and if you find it is keeping them well topped up you could reduce.

 

 

[Tomo3090]

It's just a baby Lenny! We have a 1998 Honda CRV still with original battery and after being stood in the path for 3 months following a tour away in the van it started first time and on the first turn of the key.

 

Our Cheyenne has 2X110 Elecsol batteries and they have been fine. They seem to like it better since we have had the solar panels fitted as they hold their charge for longer. (I'm basing this on keeping an eye on the battery level gauge in the van).

 

Just a cople of questions for the "Battery Nerd"! Because they are on what is virtually permanant charge with the panels should I top the up more frequently?

 

Also can I just connect a third battery to them or does it need something else ?

 

 

[Brambles]

A lot depends on the specifications of the charge system, what power drain is on the batteries when not being charged bt the panels , say overnight, self dicscharge and so on. Geberally itis a good rume to check the battery electrolyte level more often if you have on permanent charge.

If you check after a month and no the no reason not to sucgest you just stick to checking before an after the the main season of use.

If you do need a lot of topping up it could be an indication something is not quite right such as being overcharged, batteries are aging, or just plain and simple you are a heavy user of power.

typical probelm with solar panel charging is batteries discharge enough overnight to trigger a new fully charge cycle and the batteries get fully charged up gassing a little before falling back to a trickle charge. Most systems are intelligent enough not to trigger a fresh (bulk) charging and remain in trickle charge mode, but switching on a load for a short time is enough to fool the charger into thinking a new charge cycle is required.

However being realistic about this, the amount of water used by this cycle is small compared to charging up after normal use. If while on trickle charge a lot of water is used, then it indicates the trickle charge rate is too high or indeed the charger is never charging to high enough voltage to fall back into a trickle charge mode.

 

Normally just parallel up the batteries and fit suitable fuses in series with each battery. You also have to consider you are now recharging 330 Ah not 220AH, and if you have used that extra capacity to power items. It does put extra requirements from your charging system.

[hymer1942]

Simple question, is 1 x 220 battery better than 2 x 110