Miller campervan?

[Guest Ian]

Hi, would welcome some advice. We are looking to buy a camper and need a 7 berth as we've 5 kids. We've looked at the Miller Alabama and it looks okay. €20,000 cheaper in Germany than here in Ireland. Any experiences good or bad of a Miller would be welcome. Also why aren't there ever enough seat belts for all passengers when you get the bigger vans? Isn't it required by law? Many thanks.

[Guest docted]

re seat belt situation, it is not too few seat belts it is too few proper seats safe for all passengers. You cannot put a belt on a side facing seat as it could lead to the old magicians favourite - "Cutting the Lady in Half". There are very few, if any, 'vans safely equipped to carry six passengers so be careful with what you buy. Good luck Docted

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Ian: I believe there is currently no legislation compelling motorhome manufacturers to arrange for safety-belts to be fitted to their products other than to the cab-seats. Unsurprisingly, there appear to be very few European-built motorhomes that are designed to be capable of sleeping seven and have 7 belted travel seats. The only ones I could find were BluCamp's Fly 400, Elnagh's Clipper 50 and the Sharky L35. Respective French prices in October 2005 were €43680, €37950 or €38300. (I believe the BluCamp model has a higher chassis specification than the others which probably explains the higher price.) However, I've no idea how many of the travel seats have 3-point belts. With 7 people on board you will need to be extra careful that whatever vehicle you choose has adequate payload and storage space for your requirements.

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

€ should be the Euro sign - not exactly sure how you managed to put one in and not me as I copied the sign from your posting.

[Guest Mel E]

Mobilvetta and Laika both produced a number of different models - A Class and Overcab C Class - with 7 good berths. I have come across a number of other makes with the same layout. Basically, at the front is a double dinette on one side and single dinette or settee on the other side. There is a pull down double in the A Class or the Luton in the C Class and bunk beds longitudinally at the rear. The bottom bunk usually folds up to form a large, garage-like storage space. We had a Mobilvetta 175 with this layout but it only had 4 belted seats. However, it would not be difficult to strengthen the rear-facing double and single dinette seats and add a lap belt and head rest. Full three-point belts would be more difficult but not impossible. Rear facing seats are inherently safer since big decelerations occur in front crashes. (The RAF always used to fit its Transport 'planes with rear facing seats, but it never caught on in civilian flying.) As has been said, you need to watch the load capacity: assuming a spread of ages in the kids, 2 adults and 5 kids are likely to weigh in at around 350 to 400 Kgs. And they'll each want clothes, etc.

[Guest Brian Kirby]

Derek If you have a Euro key beside 4 on your keyboard, you press Ctrl and Alt at the same time as the $/4/€ key, but it's no use on MMM forum! I expect Ian has a proper Euro key since (assuming he's in Eire) they're in the Euro zone. Brian

[Guest Brian Kirby]

Derek Now you'll know I'm mad! What I described for the Euro key didn't work on the posting screen (all I got was a little square), hence what I said, but it seems to have come out OK on the actual post. Don't you just hate when they do that! Regards Brian

[Guest Bill Haylor]

€ € € € Always wondered how to do that ??

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Old kit, so no Euro character on keyboard. Original problem likely to be due to me using a word-processor as pig-in-the-middle. I'm sure I could circumvent the difficulty if I tried, but I don't think I'll bother €€€€€€€€€€€!!!!!!!

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Forget the word-processor theory and you can see the result of the Ctrl-Alt idea (though oddly enough this did produce a Euro sign on the posting screen). 27 years in IT has taught me to know when to walk away. Regards, D€r€k

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

€ € € €

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Thought copy/pasting bill h's Euro signs might work, but clearly not. My PC has always had a slightly tempestuous relationship with the present MMM forum - perhaps it will be better when the revised version rolls out.

[Guest Ian]

Thanks for the advice. Sory about the old € sign.Like you on my old keyboard I also used to get a square when I typed alt, control and 4 at the same time. Regards. Ian

[Guest Brian Kirby]

Ian Hope this isn’t too late to be useful. The Miller Alabama comes up as 5 seat, 7 berth, so I haven’t included it. For comparison, the quoted price is €45,150. The following are all 2006 model year, but may not all be imported to Ireland/UK. All are quoted as 7 seaters. All these seats should be 3 point belted, as they are officially recognised travel seats. However, this should be verified, as there still seems some confusion regarding the need for belts for rear facing seats. I would also suggest a close look at backrest and headrest construction on the rear facing seats, to be sure they look suitably robust. All prices are on the road prices for France. CI Elliot 40: 7 seat, 7 berth, on LWB Fiat 18 (Maxi) base with 2.8JTD. 6.81 M long, 3.5 tonne with 585 Kg user load. 100 nom litre fridge, 130 litres water, 110 litres waste. €38,900. Elnagh Clipper 50: 7 seat 7 berth, on LWB Fiat 18 (Maxi) base with 2.3 JTD. 6.84 long, 3.5 tonne with 636 Kg user load. 110 nom litre fridge, 115 litres water, 100 litres waste. €37,970. Mc Louis Lagan 420: 7 seat, 7 berth, on LWB Fiat 18 (Maxi) base with 2.3 JTD. 6.75 long, 3.5 tonne with 840 Kg user load. 105 nom litre fridge, 140 litres water, 90 litres waste. €38,200. Rimor Superbrig SB749: 7 seat, 7 berth, on LWB Merc Sprinter 416 CDI base. 7.75 long, 4.6 tonne with 1340 Kg user load. 135 litre fridge, 100 litres water, 105 litres waste. €58,400. Roller Team Auto-roller 7: 7 seat, 7 berth, on LWB Fiat 18 (Maxi) base with 2.8 JTD. 6.81 long, 3.4 tonne with 585 Kg user load. 100 litre fridge, 130 litres water, 110 litres waste. €38,990. Sun Living Surf 500: 7 seat, 7 berth, on LWB Fiat 15 base with 2.3 or 2.8 JTD. 6.84 long, 3.4/3.5 tonne, user load not stated. 110 litre fridge, 115 litres water, 100 litres waste. €40,850 for 2.3 JTD. The obvious best is the Rimor, despite the silly water capacity but, like most best options it comes at a price. I believe Blu Camp is by Rimor, aimed mainly at the hire market, so the Fly may be a clone of the Superbrig. If you’re prepared to buy in Germany, I believe the prices may be lower than for France. Hope this helps, and good hunting. Brian

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Brian: If (as seems likely) you are sourcing your information from a French motorhome magazine's model-listing, then it's possible you are equating the 'places carte grise' (PCG) datum to the number of "officially recognised travel seats" each vehicle has. Although the PCG figure can often provide a handy clue to a motorhome's people-carrying capability and useful payload, it won't reveal a vehicle's maximum seating capacity, nor how many seats are belted, nor what types of belts are employed. I don’t know how incestuous the Rimor/BluCamp relationship is, but the Fiat Ducato-based "Fly" range is unique to BluCamp. Rimor build on Ford, Mercedes or Renault chassis, but not on Fiat.

[Guest Brian Kirby]

Derek Correct, the "Le Monde du Camping Car" No 175, Oct/Nov 2005, round up of the Paris Salon 2006 models. Yes there are shortcomings in the way the seats are listed, which is why I put in the rider about checking the types of belts fitted and the construction of the seats. The Carte Grise is supposed to list only those seats that can legally be used to carry passengers in France. Seats deemed unsuitable for passenger carrying should not apear on the Crate Grise. The obvious shortcoming to all of this is that the seats are so designated, initially, by the converter, but then reported upon in a magizine which isn't immune from "typos". In short, to be treated with caution. But then, I guess most people wouldn't just go out and buy on the strength of a meg review, or a "forum" posting - or would they!? However, since Ian seemed to be looking for a bit more choice, I thought the models listed would at least start him off on potentially productive routes. I also added a rider about the "confusion" over what is a safe belted seat, so I hope Ian will have picked that up. I assume Ian will get onto the various websites or perhaps visit dealers (the best of the bunch do seem to be CI, Roller Team and Rimor, all of which are imported, at least to UK) to pick up the finer details. Even if the actual models are not imported he may be able to get the full details by e-mail, or a brochure from a dealer. He could possibly get a LHD import to order if necessary. No, I don't know the details of the Blu Camp relationship either, in fact I later began to wonder if it might have been RR (Due Erre) and not Blu Camp, who just may have been Trigano instrad? Point was, they seem to be quite well reviewed and from a fairly good stable and being aimed at hire, were stated somewhere to be fairly robust and simple. Final thought, if Ian is still awake, I do just wonder if he's going down the best route. Kids grow up quite quickly, and then won't take holidays with Mum and Dad. With 5 in the pot, unless the youngest are babes, one at least must be approaching (relative) independence. Since this will be a large, heavy, thirsty expensive 'van, I do wonder if Ian has considered the alternative of a smaller van, with a tent for the kids. Might be more comfortable and restful overall than a crowded motorhome. For example, there are a couple of versions of the Ducato based Mancayo Liberty Van 5 (one at 127 HP, one at 146 HP) that claim 8 seats, so should transport all OK. Liberty Van + tent + baggage trailer? All trensported, all accommodated, all sorted! And, he can always get a smaller tent as time passes and the holiday contingent diminishes. Thanks and regards Brian

[Guest Mel E]

Due Erre & Blu Camp are both Rimor sub-brands. Moncayo do do a 8 seater, but NOT 8 belted seats. See new post to forum.

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Brian: I've always been somewhat mystified at how the 'places carte grise' figure is arrived at. Perhaps you could explain it, please?

[Guest Brian Kirby]

Derek Officially, the Carte Grise is now dead. It was repleced by the new European style registration document at around the same time that UK revised ours. Last year or the year before? The Carte Grise was just the French registration document, or log book. It was printed on grey paper, hence its name. Among the details given are the number of officially sanctioned seats for use within the vehicle. Since there is no official interest in alternative uses of vehicles (camping etc, or otherwise off the road), the number of seats quoted are all deemed legally suitable for transporting passengers while on the road. So far, so good. The problem seems to arise because, under various French administrations, the interpretation of European seat belt requirements has been, shall we say, a bit generous in respect of camping cars. Whether this is as a result of pressure from the industry, I know not. However, the French have long favoured their "salons panoramique", which almost always feature two opposite, longitudinal, side facing settees, a centre table, and swivel mounted driver's and passenger's seats. Thus, 6 "convives" can be accommodated around the table. For reasons I have never been able to fathom, these side facing seats (or at least two of them) seem always to have made it into the Carte Grise with only lap belts for security. I think they are profoundly dodgy but, if they're what the French want and like, so long as the layout stays in France, c'est la (their) vie! However, they don't stay in France, and Rapido for one has been exporting them to UK for years. I've had some pretty odd responses from Rapido UK in resposnse to queries about their safety. Same applied to Rapido's provision, for years after most others had abandoned the practice, of installing only lap belts to the forward facing dinette seats. Irrespective of the safety consideration it always seemed a bit of a cheap trick at their prices! Notwithstanding the unsatisfactory nature of the belts, the seats were catalogued as "homologue" and were in the Carte Grise as pessenger seats. It seems that, because they were deemed lawful in France, they could lawfully be exported to UK. Relatively small market, so perhaps no one noticed, or wanted to notice. Shame, because I've always quite liked Rapidos in other respects! It seems the term "Carte Grise" will survive in popular usage as the term for the registration document. There seems to be resistance to changing to "Carte Bleue", and "Certificat d'Immatriculation de Vehicule" doesn't stand a cat in hell's chance! Brian