Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[rolandrat]

Thanks for that Brian, the photo's would have been better tosee if the components had been on a plain surface. It would also have helped if the old and new gears had been side by side to compare. There is also the layshaft gears to consider as well. Just as a matter of interest to anyone reading this, the company fitters I mention have vast commercial vehicle experience, two have recently retired with 44years service each so they certainly know what they are talking about.

Some time ago I experienced severe judder in a Foden articulated road tanker, we had a fleet of them allthe same spec. It always happened at a road junction on a slight uphill incline, as you know bulk fluid in a road tanker is always on the move, the load would always settle at the back. When setting off it was like a bucking bronco, you had to get the engine revs and clutch just right otherwise you were going know where. None of the other vehicles suffered with the problem so it was decided to strip it down in the workshop and find out why it was happening. The clutch was manufactured by Lipp Rollway and when it was removed it was found to have been set up wrong, it wasn't releasing onto the clutch disc evenly. It was returned under warranty, a new clutch was fitted and the vehicle performed well afterwards. A straight forward diagnosis by very experienced fitters.

Moyne dont let the to----s grind you down keep at them, are all with you on this, keep us in the picture.

Rolandrat.

[rolandrat]

Hey Moyne,

don't you mean 2010, we will all be long gone by 2110.

[Brian Kirby]

Has everyone who has had this "judder" problem taken their van back to the dealer who sold it to them?

If the van was bought in the UK, it is the selling dealer who is legally responsible for the defect, not Fiat.  It is the dealer you should be pushing for remedy.

It is just that I suspect most will have said the problem is a Fiat problem, so it is Fiat who should address it.  What that means, if true, is that very few of the UK dealers will have had the problem presented to them, with a demand they fix it, so will have been able to carry on denying its existence.

Even if the defect is presented to a Fiat repairer for remedy, the selling dealer should still be/have been notified the defect exists, and be asked how he intends to remedy it.

[Rayjsj]

Slightly 'off-field' my brother (aged 70) rang me last night to ask my opinion, he has been looking at a 2009 Autosleeper Stratford with the 120hp engine on a Peugeot, it's an ex-Demonstrator with 5000 miles on the clock (seemed rather high to me,even for a demonstrator ??) He being completely 'new' to 'our world' i explained a lot of what has been described through these threads.

Now, this vehicle will be used on frequent trips to the French/Swiss border and OVER the Jura mountains, I have Nieces and Grand-Nieces and Nephews who live on Both sides of the border, it is being purchased as an only vehicle to transport my disabled sister-in-law , who can no longer stand the hassle of 'low-cost-airline' flights and needs close 'facilities'. Plus their small collie dog.

I have told him that he MUST take a test drive and reverse it up a medium sized hill, at least the same that he might encounter in the 'Jura'.

He would be getting it from a large dealership (Marquis) which is fairly close to his home in Bedfordshire. I told him to 'Impress' on the salesman where this vehicle will be used and what for.

Is there anything else I should have told him ?? (does this version have the DMF ??) I admit to feeling a bit responsible after regaling him with our many happy times away in our 'Autosleeper' van. Any advice given will be accepted gratefully.

I did, try to 'steer them' towards a Renault based van (a Camargue by Devon) but they seem 'sold' on the Stratford.

Ray *-)

[AliB]

Brian,

 

We bought our first motorhome in June 2008 from Lowdhams. They were aware of the juddering problems and had no hesitation in allowing a test drive with an uphill reverse. The vehicle passed the test. On our first trip away I had to reverse back round a hairpin. The van was fully loaded at this time and consequently juddered. I now know the original test ws pointless as our vehicle need a full load to exhibit the symptons. Going back to Lowdhams they looked at me suprised and stated that Fiat problems should be reported to Fiat and not them. There was no way they were going to get involved.

You are quite right, they sold me the vehicle so my contract is with them.

Fortunately the claim through Fiat (although slow at first) went through smoothly (No doubt due to Andy S excellent work). I have yet to hear of a dealer, or converter, who will acknowledge any responsibility for the Fiat part of a motorhome that they have sold.

[euroserv]

Ray

 

The answer to your question is that that the 120hp Peugeout is a 2.2 and does have a DMF but as riddiculous an idea as they are they are not known to be a problem on this vehicle any more than they would be on a Ford or whatever.

 

The question is whether they are prepared to have to worry constantly about the consequences of a failure and about the simple fact that the dealer will want nothing to do with it if it does go wrong. Knowingly going down that path seems little more than daft to me.

 

Nick

[Brian Kirby]

AliB - 2009-12-10 12:41 PM Brian, We bought our first motorhome in June 2008 from Lowdhams. They were aware of the juddering problems and had no hesitation in allowing a test drive with an uphill reverse. The vehicle passed the test. On our first trip away I had to reverse back round a hairpin. The van was fully loaded at this time and consequently juddered. I now know the original test ws pointless as our vehicle need a full load to exhibit the symptons. Going back to Lowdhams they looked at me suprised and stated that Fiat problems should be reported to Fiat and not them. There was no way they were going to get involved. You are quite right, they sold me the vehicle so my contract is with them. Fortunately the claim through Fiat (although slow at first) went through smoothly (No doubt due to Andy S excellent work). I have yet to hear of a dealer, or converter, who will acknowledge any responsibility for the Fiat part of a motorhome that they have sold.

You are right, this does seem to be the standard response.  Nevertheless, according to my advice from a local Trading Standards legal adviser, the dealers are wrong, and know they are wrong.  The contract is with the dealer, and it is totally his obligation to fix the problem, whatsoever guarantee you may hold.  The guarantee is no part of your contract with the dealer, it is merely an additional benefit "given" by the manufacturer to the end user.  It is yours, to use as and when you choose, and its existence is, so far as the dealer is concerned, none of his business.

If the owner of an unsatisfactory van takes it to his dealer, and asks him to have the repairs carried out, that is what he is legally obliged to do.  It may be reasonable for the dealer to suggest trying to use the Fiat guarantee, but there is no legal obligation to do this and the owner can, instead, insist the dealer does this himself.

Ultimately, if the dealer refuses to act, he can been sued and, if he cannot obtain a satisfactory repair, he must either compensate the buyer, or rescind the contract and take back the van for a full refund.  The choice is the buyer's.  These options are not available under the Fiat guarantee, unless Fiat has demonstrably broken its terms.  I would suggest that suing a dealer under the Sale of Goods Act, uncertain as that may be in terms of outcomes, is likely to be more successful, and far less risky, than suing Fiat for non-compliance with their own guarantee!

If the dealers had faced a series of court actions - especially if one dealer had been singled out at first - they would soon have started complaining back up the line to the converters, and they in turn would have begun to wonder about the wisdom of their continuing relationship with Fiat.

As it is, the whole pack of them have acted cynically against the interests of their customers - whose satisfaction is, no doubt, "their highest priority".

This won't nonsense stop until buyers begin using the, albeit very imperfect, consumer laws we presently have, and start campaigning for quicker, and less risky, legal remedies.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2009-12-10 8:11 AM

 

rupert123 - 2009-12-09 4:44 PM

 

rolandrat - 2009-12-09 12:59 PM

 

Rupert123,

there is only one THEORY on this matter and it revolves round the gearbox, we can come up with every reason under the sun but we will always return to the main problem. It is very important to listen to people who are employed in a hands on situation ie fitters who work on these vehicles on a daily basis. What they tell you is FACTUAL not an ASSUMPTION. What I would like to see is a photographic copy of the offending reverse gear and one of the replacement, that should then put this matter to bed once and for all.

 

What theory? Their is nothing to theorize about, it is a fact that reverse gear is to high. I do not need to see it just stick a van in reverse, you will soon see. Listen to fitters, well ok in case you missed it a bloke who has a fleet of these has posted on here quite a lot and been very helpfull on the subject in the past. he agrees about the reverse gear. What have these 'fitters' you are on about told you, I for one would like to know or is this just another urban myth.

 

rupert123

 

I don't understand this. I was under the impression that you had absolutely no complaints about your Fiat-based motorhome's reversing performance. Now it seems that you are criticising its gearbox for having a too high reverse-gear ratio.

 

Sorry Derek should have made it clear I was talking about the 2.3 six speed which this thread has been mainly about. I actually changed my order from a 2.3 to a 2.2 five speed after talking to Andy nearly two years ago. I have had not a single problem with the Fiat part after nearly 19,000 miles it drives really well for a van. It will reverse fine and goes ok so no complaints. I have however driven a few 2.3 six speeds and they are pretty high geared in reverse so although I feel people will manage with them it is not ideal. My point was we still have a few who are going of into the realms of fantasy about the cause of the problem, it is now well known and documented. As my wife and I are thinking of a change next year and I would prefer another Fiat my interest in this is personal and would like to be sure the gearbox is a new one with the lower reverse. There have been no new complaints on here or MHF for some time so it would appear that people have had their vans fixed and fiat are getting on top of the problem.

[Mel B]

Rayjsj - 2009-12-10 12:27 PM

 

Slightly 'off-field' my brother (aged 70) rang me last night to ask my opinion, he has been looking at a 2009 Autosleeper Stratford with the 120hp engine on a Peugeot, it's an ex-Demonstrator with 5000 miles on the clock (seemed rather high to me,even for a demonstrator ??) Ray *-)

 

Personally I would be VERY wary - I wonder why it has such a high mileage too? Obviously they may have toted it around some shows but that seems very, very high even for that. I would err on the side of caution and if they were unable to give a very full explanation for the mileage, I'd leave it alone. It could be a van that has been used by a lot of different people with a lot of different driving techniques, or it could be that the van has had a lot of very long test drives and been rejected because of a problem. Something just doesn't seem 'right'.

 

Clive Mott-Gotobed - a question for you if you would please:

 

When you and your 'gang' (ie motorhome testers) get a vehicle to test I assume it will be on 'dealers plates' and not registered, does this also apply to any 'long term test' vehicles? This could possibly explain the high mileage ...

[Derek Uzzell]

rupert123 - 2009-12-10 5:44 PM

 

...I have had not a single problem with the Fiat part after nearly 19,000 miles it drives really well for a van. It will reverse fine and goes ok so no complaints...

 

But can your motorhome satisfactorily pass the 'no juddering' acceptance-test that (as I understand it) involves starting from rest in reverse on an incline of at least 1-in-6 and then ascending the slope backwards with the motor running at tick-over speed and the clutch fully engaged?

[robertandjean]

Like Rupert 123 we have had no problems with our Fiat 2.2 5 speed based motorhome (ours on Swift Escape). Have completed 3 good trips to France with no Judder in reverse. Over this period we have undertaken all the normal reversing you would anticipate with no problems at all. No we have not undertaken the special juddering test of reversing up a very steep narrow road for a long distance This mainly because in 25 years of motorhoming the length and breadth of Europe never have we found the need to do this! (only in the last 4 years have we focused our motorhome travels on France only).

So given that the vast majority of 2.2 reports do seem to be positive and the fixes Fiat are now applying to the 2.3 6 speed appear to work, then should this thread not now move on with focus on the 3.0,. as this appears to be the one model with some owners still reporting problems and Fiat still to offer a solution.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2009-12-10 6:52 PM

 

rupert123 - 2009-12-10 5:44 PM

 

...I have had not a single problem with the Fiat part after nearly 19,000 miles it drives really well for a van. It will reverse fine and goes ok so no complaints...

 

But can your motorhome satisfactorily pass the 'no juddering' acceptance-test that (as I understand it) involves starting from rest in reverse on an incline of at least 1-in-6 and then ascending the slope backwards with the motor running at tick-over speed and the clutch fully engaged?

 

Lets get a little sense here. No I have not and doubt any heavy truck with a small 2.3/2.2 litre engine will do that. You are seriously suggesting that a van with a weight probably in excess of 3.5 ton will reverse up a 1-6 hill without you touching the accelerator peddle.

[Tomo3090]

After listening to Radio 4 the other day, perhaps the leagl route with your dealer may be the way to go. A business woman had Volkswagon tell her that they wouldn't do anything to repair her van after the gearbox/clutch failed the day after the 3 year warranty failed. Trading standards were involved and they stated that Volkswagon had an obligation under the "Sale of Goods Act" to repair the defect as the warranty was only something the manufacturers offered as a sales pitch. The true test was whether the gearbox should reasonably be expected to outlast the 3 year period. She was successful in getting things sorted by Volkswagon.

 

For info. It was the Volkswagon dealer who was being sued not the company. The spokesperson from Trading Standards did state that from a legal standpoint it was the dealer who was responsible because they sold the vehicle.

[Derek Uzzell]

rupert123 - 2009-12-10 9:14 PM

 

Lets get a little sense here. No I have not and doubt any heavy truck with a small 2.3/2.2 litre engine will do that. You are seriously suggesting that a van with a weight probably in excess of 3.5 ton will reverse up a 1-6 hill without you touching the accelerator peddle.

 

What I was hoping to do was provoke comments like yours and that of 'robertandjean'.

 

I don't believe any recent-ish manual-transmission motorhome could carry out such a reversing manoeuvre, and I'm sure that attempting such an experiment would inevitably provoke a violent mechanical reaction. But that's the scenario that seems to be being presented to current and prospective X/250 owners.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2009-12-11 8:46 AM

 

rupert123 - 2009-12-10 9:14 PM

 

Lets get a little sense here. No I have not and doubt any heavy truck with a small 2.3/2.2 litre engine will do that. You are seriously suggesting that a van with a weight probably in excess of 3.5 ton will reverse up a 1-6 hill without you touching the accelerator peddle.

 

What I was hoping to do was provoke comments like yours and that of 'robertandjean'.

 

I don't believe any recent-ish manual-transmission motorhome could carry out such a reversing manoeuvre, and I'm sure that attempting such an experiment would inevitably provoke a violent mechanical reaction. But that's the scenario that seems to be being presented to current and prospective X/250 owners.

 

Well that worked then Derek, the Fiat reverse thing has got out of hand. While I have no doubt the 2.3 six speed X250 had a problem, Fiat did little to sort things out in a proper manner, some of the recent posts on here have gone a touch over the top. Fiat now seem to be the only vehicle maker who have problems and all others are paragons of virtue. I have no experience of the 3.0 litre and a few have posted on here about problems with this, however they all seem to have disappeared. This thread should be kept going if they are still 'out their' but if not it may be time to let things drop.

[Brian Kirby]

Tomo3090 - 2009-12-10 9:54 PM After listening to Radio 4 the other day, perhaps the leagl route with your dealer may be the way to go. A business woman had Volkswagon tell her that they wouldn't do anything to repair her van after the gearbox/clutch failed the day after the 3 year warranty failed. Trading standards were involved and they stated that Volkswagon had an obligation under the "Sale of Goods Act" to repair the defect as the warranty was only something the manufacturers offered as a sales pitch. The true test was whether the gearbox should reasonably be expected to outlast the 3 year period. She was successful in getting things sorted by Volkswagon. For info. It was the Volkswagon dealer who was being sued not the company. The spokesperson from Trading Standards did state that from a legal standpoint it was the dealer who was responsible because they sold the vehicle.

Exactly.  When all else has failed, it is only the dealer who can be legally compelled to carry out repairs, compensate you, or return your money.  If he can't secure the repairs, you will generally be offered the choice of whether to keep the vehicle and recieve compensation, or return the van and get your money back - possibly less a sum in recognition of any use you may have made of it.

Whether or not you consider this fair, or the dealer is a "nice chap" is irrelevant; when all else has failed he is the only member of the supply chain who is legally responsible for the quality of the van you bought.

I seem to sense a great reluctance on the part of posters to this string to grasp this nettle, and act in their own interests (and the general interest), rather than continue impotently moaning away.  Why?

[euroserv]

Hello All,

 

I appreciate the fact that (rather belatedly) Fiat have made the necessary improvements to the most widely affected vehicles but not as yet to the 3.0 engines. This thread is important because it keeps the ongoing issues fresh in the minds of any interested party and serves as a reminder to Fiat that potential customers are being cautioned over their planned purchase.

 

Don't forget that there are an awful lot of second hand vehicles sitting around; some are sure to be trade-ins from dissatisfied first owners and I believe that without this thread many people would have blundered into purchasing a defective vehicle that is out of warranty.

 

While Brian is 100% correct that the supplying dealer is responsible for ensuring that the goods that they sell are fit for purpose; would you want to have to go through all of that hassle instead of enjoying your motor home?

 

I think it is time for all of the reputable dealers to test all of the vehicles that they have in stock and get any repairs carried out BEFORE any poor bugger buys it, and get the job fully documented and guaranteed by Fiat.

 

Trouble is... there aren't any.

 

Nick

[PSHORT]

rupert123 - 2009-12-11 10:12 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2009-12-11 8:46 AM

 

rupert123 - 2009-12-10 9:14 PM

 

Lets get a little sense here. No I have not and doubt any heavy truck with a small 2.3/2.2 litre engine will do that. You are seriously suggesting that a van with a weight probably in excess of 3.5 ton will reverse up a 1-6 hill without you touching the accelerator peddle.

 

What I was hoping to do was provoke comments like yours and that of 'robertandjean'.

 

I don't believe any recent-ish manual-transmission motorhome could carry out such a reversing manoeuvre, and I'm sure that attempting such an experiment would inevitably provoke a violent mechanical reaction. But that's the scenario that seems to be being presented to current and prospective X/250 owners.

 

Well that worked then Derek, the Fiat reverse thing has got out of hand. While I have no doubt the 2.3 six speed X250 had a problem, Fiat did little to sort things out in a proper manner, some of the recent posts on here have gone a touch over the top. Fiat now seem to be the only vehicle maker who have problems and all others are paragons of virtue. I have no experience of the 3.0 litre and a few have posted on here about problems with this, however they all seem to have disappeared. This thread should be kept going if they are still 'out their' but if not it may be time to let things drop.

 

 

 

 

No, my 3litre panel van still judders in reverse on the flat and would repeat burning clutch smells when I next HAVE TO complete a 3 point turn.

Would I have the confidence to reverse it up a steep hill at a safe speed, of course not,

Are Fiat doing anything other than platitudes when I phone them, of course not,

would I buy another Fiat product, of course not

Am I disallusioned, of Course I am

[Brian Kirby]

euroserv - 2009-12-11 11:39 AM ........... While Brian is 100% correct that the supplying dealer is responsible for ensuring that the goods that they sell are fit for purpose; would you want to have to go through all of that hassle instead of enjoying your motor home?

I think it is time for all of the reputable dealers to test all of the vehicles that they have in stock and get any repairs carried out BEFORE any poor bugger buys it, and get the job fully documented and guaranteed by Fiat. Trouble is... there aren't any. Nick

I agree with both Nick's sentiments above.  However, some present owners have already waited two years or so for a partial fix that merely (just about) massages the underlying problem out of sight.

Unless and until some of these dealerships are taken through the courts they will be extremely unlikely to do so Nick suggests in his second paragraph above.  That, really, is the point.

[Mel B]

Ray ... I've sent you a PM about the van your brother's considering...

[davethevibes]

rupert123 - 2009-12-10 10:12 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2009-12-11 8:46 AM

 

rupert123 - 2009-12-10 9:14 PM

 

Lets get a little sense here. No I have not and doubt any heavy truck with a small 2.3/2.2 litre engine will do that. You are seriously suggesting that a van with a weight probably in excess of 3.5 ton will reverse up a 1-6 hill without you touching the accelerator peddle.

 

What I was hoping to do was provoke comments like yours and that of 'robertandjean'.

 

I don't believe any recent-ish manual-transmission motorhome could carry out such a reversing manoeuvre, and I'm sure that attempting such an experiment would inevitably provoke a violent mechanical reaction. But that's the scenario that seems to be being presented to current and prospective X/250 owners.

 

Well that worked then Derek, the Fiat reverse thing has got out of hand. While I have no doubt the 2.3 six speed X250 had a problem, Fiat did little to sort things out in a proper manner, some of the recent posts on here have gone a touch over the top. Fiat now seem to be the only vehicle maker who have problems and all others are paragons of virtue. I have no experience of the 3.0 litre and a few have posted on here about problems with this, however they all seem to have disappeared. This thread should be kept going if they are still 'out their' but if not it may be time to let things drop.

 

 

I may be a newbie on this forum and have thus suffered the slings and arrows of some of the regular voices but I have been watching this thread for a long time. It is certainly correct to say that there are no angels amongst other marques.I quoted previously my problems with my 02 reg Transit based Autosleeper Amethyst, such a horrible vehicle that I took a big loss to get shot of it. (Are you listening Mr Trevelyan?) It had two back axles, two clutches, replaced gearbox bearing - all in under 10,000 miles and had over 70 other faults - like doors that almost opened themselves at 70mph, it broke down several times and had countless punctures due to its appalling chassis. We became regular guests at Broadway hotels courtesy of Autosleeper. Then my otherwise-cherished VW T4s, three of them, were almost perfect, but not quite. But two of them did 60k apiece. Frankly it's swings and roundabouts. There is no perfect motorcaravan and in our case the Swift Fiat has been far less trouble than many others in my 11 van, 36 year record of motorcaravanning. (Mind you my 1973 VW Continental was actually faultless but there wasn't much to go wrong in those days.).(Experience isn't just slagging off on a web forum) Happy Christmas everyone....there's a New Motorcaravanning Year coming up....don't miss it!

 

[dshague]

 Happy Christmas everyone....there's a New Motorcaravanning Year coming up....don't miss it

thank you dave i agree with you happy christmas

[Guest Tracker]

dshague - 2009-12-11 8:37 PM

 Happy Christmas everyone....there's a New Motorcaravanning Year coming up....don't miss it

thank you dave i agree with you happy christmas

Won't miss a day - but then I don't have a dodgy Fiat gearbox!

[Derek Uzzell]

davethevibes - 2009-12-11 7:46 PM

 

...it broke down several times and had countless punctures due to its appalling chassis...

 

An intriguing statement. How many punctures is "countless" and how can a Transit's "appalling chassis" cause punctures?

 

My present Hobby fell victim to the mysterious Transit Mk 6 tyre-valve failure disease and picked up a screw through a front tyre, while my previous Transit-based Herald had a couple of punctures during my 6 years of ownership. Across almost 50 years of driving, none of the punctures I've experienced have been due to the vehicle itself; all have been caused by debris collected from the road surface.

[davethevibes]

How many is countless? Too many to remember! How does a chassis cause punctures....well it may be something to do with the way the Amethyst "bunny-hopped" on anything remotely "chausee deforme".....like when we were doing 30mph on the approach to the Carcassonne site and the resulting bounce was so severe that it wrecked our bike rack...or it could have been down to the inability of either Ford or Autosleeper to certify the correct pressure for the tyres (each said to ask the other) but we had blowouts in Scotland, Brittany, La Rochelle and Yorkshire....do you thaink that was just chance? The Brittany one was, though, a valve failure but by the time we could get the van into a safe stopping space the tyre was just as wrecked...and....here's the joke, does anyone ever claim to have used a Transit jack to lift their van when it''s had a blow out? In the La Rochelle case , on a motorway, the Caravan Club rescue guy had to use his hydraulic tail lift to get the van off the ground....This would be hilarious if it weren't so bleedin' scary to get a blow out at high speed. Truth is the Mk II lwb Amethyst was crap from the start. Autisleeper picked up a few lwb chassis and thought it might make a seller. Wrong!!! It didn't help that the "dealer of the year" who supplied it at Mr T's recommendation didn't even bother to register it on the Ford database, let alone do a PDI, let alone acknowledge our letters. Tell you what, I wish you'd been around when I came to sell it!

Actually, I can see now why people using this site get so abusive. Believe me...the Fiat is lovely! and it cost less. .........I wouldn't have a tranny as a gift....