Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[moyne]

Brian Kirby - 2009-12-14 2:51 PM

moyne - 2009-12-14 8:33 AM

Lord Raindrop - 2009-12-12 11:48 PM Brian at the top of this page has pointed out quite correctly that the dealer is the one responsible to correct your vehicle. It also astounds me why individuals believe FIAT will do the right thing. They have no obligation to do so ! Those who found they had duff vehicles should have returned them to the dealer the first day they found a fault. Once a vehicle has been driven for a reasonable distance it can be said that you have accepted the vehicle in that condition.

This not actually true ! yes you have the right to refuse the goods and the period is for the period specified under the sale of goods act ! What is a reasonable period ? Could it not also be said that the dealer has the right to repair the offending vehicle. The sale of goods act states Repair , Replace or your money back.... you don't get to choose ! In my case the problem was discovered and reported two weeks after receiving the vehicle.... ! I am one of those poor buggers who bought a runt ! Anyway there is a cure and it's called the law ! and what is right !

I need a bit of help with this, Moyne.

Lord Raindrop makes three points.  Which of them is untrue?

Under Part 5A of the Sale of Goods Act 1979, as amended,

(Where..........) the goods do not conform to the contract of sale at the time of delivery.

(2) If this section applies, the buyer has the right - 

(a) under and in accordance with section 48B below, to require the seller to repair or replace the goods, or

 

(b) under and in accordance with section 48C below - 

(i) to require the seller to reduce the purchase price of the goods to the buyer by an appropriate amount, or

 

(ii) to rescind the contract with regard to the goods in question.

(3) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) above goods which do not conform to the contract of sale at any time within the period of six months starting with the date on which the goods were delivered to the buyer must be taken not to have so conformed at that date.

Note, it is the buyer who has the right, not the seller.

Ah if only life was that simple....!My reference in ingnorance was to to the 1980 sale of goods and services act as pertians within Irish Law. The act does protect the purchaser but naturally protects also the seller. The Minister for justice through the state system and the appointed judge shall make the ultimate decision as to the responsibilities in each case. Given my situation I have no doubts that a decision will have to be made by someone. I have made mine !

[Colin Leake]

euroserv - 2009-12-14 2:34 PM

 

Following Chris's post could I politely suggest that those contributors that have been persisting with their campaign to stifle this thread because in their opinion everything is well with 2.3 Ducato vehicles should take careful note.....

 

It is by no means over yet and there is a continuing need to advise caution to anyone that has or is contemplating the purchase of an X250 chassis.

 

Just because yours is ok it does not give you the right to belittle the genuine concerns of those that are still suffering, and if you feel the need to tell members of the forum how good your van is, I would suggest that your contributions should not be on the 'Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect' thread but perhaps you could start one called 'I'm all right, Jack'

 

Nick

Come on I'm as grateful as the next person to have been notified by these threads of the problem and thankful that I have thus avioded making the mistake of purchasing a new motorhome on a Fiat chassis which I certainly would have done. But I'm even more keen to learn that the problems have been solved so if there are any owners of new/recient vans out that don't have a problem don't be put off by the somewhat abusive attitude of some corispondents. You have every right to let us know and I for one would be only too delighted if the thread was suddenly alive with such posts. After all unless we hear from the likes of you how are we ever expected to know if and when the problem has been fixed?

[Guest Tracker]

More an observation than a rebuke Brian as it would be unfair to rebuke anyone simply for being helpful and informative!

[aljen]

I have to ask if anyone has gone to a dealer to buy a used x250 and has the dealer been up front and confirmed what of if any of the mods been carried out. Or have they even mentioned the fact that there is a potential problem when asked. I bet none would

 

alan

 

[Rayjsj]

I for one would be very keen to hear on this thread from anyone who has purchased a new X250 based van with a manual 6 speed gearbox,in the last six months, whether it can reverse up a hill without Juddering/shaking/Burning the clutch. (I have a steep 1 in 4/5 drive which I have to reverse up).

It will be nice to know when (date) the Vehicle part was actually produced, as opposed to the conversion.

We all just want this thing to be 'OVER', after many of the comments from people who have had various 'Mods' done which havn't solved the fault, I won't now consider a used X250.

I just hope that the guy who 'signed off' the poor choice of gearbox ratio's for this vehicle got Fired. He deserved to.

Any news yet for Folk with 3 Litre manual gearboxes ?

Ray

[Brod]

A light at the end of the tunnel

I have just had my AutotrailTracker returned after the gearbox mod completed by Fiat dealer.

Initial response looks good, everything seems a lot smoother, forwards and in the other direction. Tried reverse on a local hill, a lot better then pior to the mod as I could not detect any judder. In March will be going to Wales for a more comprehensive test.

[rolandrat]

Brian,

keep up the good work, don't be put off by negative responses, your input on this thread has been very valuable. At the end of the day it's now out in the open that the manufacturers of the X250 have produced a lemon as regards the ratio of the reverse gear. Now we look forward to them all being put right asap.

[Derek Uzzell]

bobalobs - 2009-12-14 4:43 PM

...how much of our life do we spend backing round steep 90 degree bends!!?

 

I needed to do this with my Hobby last October - the first time in all my 45 years or so of driving. The distance I needed to travel was no more than 30 metres, but, by the time I'd completed the manouevre, the clutch was emitting an acrid burning smell. I can't say I was too surprised, given my Transit's high reverse-gear ratio, but it certainly taught me a valuable lesson.

[dshague]

Rayjsj - 2009-12-15 11:03 AM I for one would be very keen to hear on this thread from anyone who has purchased a new X250 based van with a manual 6 speed gearbox,in the last six months, whether it can reverse up a hill without Juddering/shaking/Burning the clutch. (I have a steep 1 in 4/5 drive which I have to reverse up). It will be nice to know when (date) the Vehicle part was actually produced, as opposed to the conversion. We all just want this thing to be 'OVER', after many of the comments from people who have had various 'Mods' done which havn't solved the fault, I won't now consider a used X250. I just hope that the guy who 'signed off' the poor choice of gearbox ratio's for this vehicle got Fired. He deserved to. Any news yet for Folk with 3 Litre manual gearboxes ? Ray

rayjsj most new vans converted in the past six months could be up to two years old only way to check is vin number before you put down a deposit i believe .

[Mel B]

Does anyone know how to add bits on to Wikipedia? There's very little on there about the latest Fiat Ducato .... might be worth someone putting some 'sensible' and 'true' information on there about the judder etc if anyone knows how.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Ducato

[Derek Uzzell]

Mel B - 2009-12-15 8:59 PM

 

Does anyone know how to add bits on to Wikipedia? There's very little on there about the latest Fiat Ducato .... might be worth someone putting some 'sensible' and 'true' information on there about the judder etc if anyone knows how.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Ducato

 

What is really needed is not a wikipedia addendum but a website dedicated to the juddering issue.

 

While motorhome-related internet forums are valuable for providing information and help on a 'snappy answer' basis, they are poor vehicles for handling on-going, drawn-out matters.

 

This forum alone contains several major threads concerning the Fiat juddering problem, with those threads comprising more than 4000 postings going back nearly two years. This massive quantity of postings means that it's virtually impossible to decide what's 'sensible' or 'true'. Even if you discarded 95% of the postings for being incorrect, opinion rather than fact, being out of date, off topic, etc. what would be left would still only provide an incomplete and inadequate picture.

[Mike88]

I think Derek has a point. The Fiat forum is useless. That site closes threads that have anything to do with judder. My last post on there merely mentioned e mail and contact addresses for Fiat and they were removed by the moderators.

 

I presume that Fiat must fund that site so is virtually useless for anything judder related.

[Mel B]

I can soon set a website up regarding the Fiat fiasco if anyone is able to give the 'true' picture - as I don't have one I haven't experienced first hand what's gone on, only what I've been told and heard - I don't want to get sued!

[Guest JudgeMental]

Derek Uzzell - 2009-12-15 7:02 PM

 

bobalobs - 2009-12-14 4:43 PM

...how much of our life do we spend backing round steep 90 degree bends!!?

 

I needed to do this with my Hobby last October - the first time in all my 45 years or so of driving. The distance I needed to travel was no more than 30 metres, but, by the time I'd completed the manouevre, the clutch was emitting an acrid burning smell. I can't say I was too surprised, given my Transit's high reverse-gear ratio, but it certainly taught me a valuable lesson.

 

And us In Italy this year. We went around a tight bend on side of a church, it was on a hill (going downwards) Only to be confronted by a low bridge. No room to turn, had to reverse back negotiating the tight bendand did a little damage to rear driver side of camper.....Happy days, I blame the sat nav. :-S

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Mel B - 2009-12-16 10:06 PM I can soon set a website up regarding the Fiat fiasco if anyone is able to give the 'true' picture - as I don't have one I haven't experienced first hand what's gone on, only what I've been told and heard - I don't want to get sued!

I think that is an excellent idea, and a very generous offer from Mel.  If anyone wants to follow up, may I suggest they pm her to take this forward.

The storm has now largely passed, but there are still the 3 litre vans that Fiat seem reluctant to concede may have the same problem, so it is certainly not a completely dead issue.

Rather than inviting a stream of moans and groans via yet another forum, if the site is merely informative, stating that the Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen X250 van variants have this particular defect (briefly describing the effect and avoiding speculating on the cause), and that this has been acknowledged by the respective manufacturers, with the respective customer services contact details, and brief instructions as to what to have recorded, and what response to expect, I can't see that there would be anything for them to sue about.  It should provide just facts and helpful information. 

There seems no reason why the site could not provide links to this, or any other relevant, forums, for those wishing to comment further.  The website could also be linked via the various forums, including this forum.

Well done Mel, it's just a shame the idea has come up rather late, which is not intended to reflect on anyone.  Better late than never, says I!  Five stars!!!

[Brod]

It's me again.

Nobody wants to read good news, Fiat have started gearbox mods, mine has been modified, feels a different van, no judder as yet.

Anybody else out there have had the mod completed?

[euroserv]

Hello Brod,

 

I disagree with you; everyone likes to hear good news. If you could add some details about what vehicle you have (2.2/2.3/3.0) then we could determine whether this is in fact news or not.

 

A lot of people have put a great deal of effort into this forum to ensure that the most complete picture of the progress made is available to all who wish to know.

 

It is well documented that there are modifications available for the 2.3 and that there have been mixed reports regarding successful outcomes and we already know that since April this year there are updated gearboxes being fitted to 2.3 AND 2.2 engines and that they appear to be good.

 

What is also very clear is that modifications have been less successful with the 2.2 and replacement gearboxes although available are not being offered widely. There has been no progress with the 3.0 versions and there are no modifications either in production or in the pipeline because Fiat/PSA seem to be in denial that there is a problem at all.

 

The most important reason for this thread now though is to make sure that potential purchasers are aware of the problem and that there are an awful lot of used vehicles out there that may be affected and probably have not been modified and are increasingly likely to not be under manufacturers warranty any more. The dealers will undoubtedly fob you off and you will have to fight with them to get any repairs carried out because Fiat/PSA will want nothing to do with it when it is out of warranty.

 

Anyone thinking of buying one of these second hand should ask for at least 2 years of unlimited driveline warranty for no extra cost. If they can't offer that (or won't), walk away.

 

That is why we are here. It's not poetry, it is arming the unwary with the information that they need to avoid expensive and stressful mistakes.

 

I for one am delighted that you are happy with your vehicle and wish you many happy journeys in what I believe to be potentially the best chassis available today.

 

Merry Christmas

 

Nick

[Brod]

Thanks Nick I first posted a reply on the 15th Dec you can refer back

My vehicle is of the 2.3 vintage and will be three years old in Jan.

As you can gather I have been plugging away at Fiat for those three years.

With great thanks to Andy I was able to badger Fiat from day one.

I have tried the reverse on a local hill, this I used as a test before the mod and there is a marked improvement. I will hold back from Fiat until I am able to find a better hill in Wales around March.

Happy xmas to all

[webbocj]

Having had mod 1 and 2 completed I informed Fiat that I was still not satisfied with the results, still had a judder PLUS a very noisey gearbox. The garage GK group who had done the work, then stopped selling and servicing commercials!! I was told to take it to Chesterfield for a technical assesment by Autoworld. A test drive indicated a slight judder and an noise coming from the gearbox, but the mechanic thought they were not that serious and with that information, Fiat phoned today and said that's it, they cannot do any more.

I feel the judder is no better or worse than it was originally, it's hard to tell, if there is no judder it's easy.

Who would buy any kind of a vehicle with a noisey gearbox!

Should I keep fighting. YES

What about a this list of dissatisfied owners, ONLY a list, no add ons

chris

[Derek Uzzell]

euroserv - 2009-12-18 4:21 PM

 

...A lot of people have put a great deal of effort into this forum to ensure that the most complete picture of the progress made is available to all who wish to know...

 

Nick

 

Do you know what the situation is regarding non-motorhome Boxers/Ducatos? Does Fiat and Peugeot have the same rectification policy for 'commercial' vehicles affected by this problem?

[dshague]

webbocj - 2009-12-18 10:31 PM Having had mod 1 and 2 completed I informed Fiat that I was still not satisfied with the results, still had a judder PLUS a very noisey gearbox. The garage GK group who had done the work, then stopped selling and servicing commercials!! I was told to take it to Chesterfield for a technical assesment by Autoworld. A test drive indicated a slight judder and an noise coming from the gearbox, but the mechanic thought they were not that serious and with that information, Fiat phoned today and said that's it, they cannot do any more. I feel the judder is no better or worse than it was originally, it's hard to tell, if there is no judder it's easy. Who would buy any kind of a vehicle with a noisey gearbox! Should I keep fighting. YES What about a this list of dissatisfied owners, ONLY a list, no add ons chris

give danny a call at stoneacer doncaster 01302327111 found him and stoneacer very help full  getting the judder  sorted ,you can take your van to any fiat dealer .  hope this helps .  

[euroserv]

Derek,

 

As far as I am aware, although the judder problem is theoretically just as likely with a well loaded panel van, the van driver is a different animal and will just blunder on through any problem whatever the risk of mechanical damage so I strongly suspect that many incidents have been put down to other causes. Probably the 'grab it by the scruff of the neck' approach has gotten commercial drivers out of trouble with the minimum of damage being caused. In any case, when did you ever see a van driver reversing to give way to another vehicle?

 

Of our fleet I have to say that we had two juddering vans that were delivered with the problem in forward and reverse modes and were quickly fitted with new flywheels under warranty. We have had one report of excessive uphil reversing judder while loaded that resulted in a clutch replacement but even that was at 70,000 miles so not really cause for complaint. We have changed clutches that have broken up before wearing out at mileages between 60,000 and 125,000 so not quite an epidemic there either.

 

My sources tell me that very little help was offered to the members of this forum that were not camper owners in the early days and I understand that they were fobbed off with tales that it only affected campers before being offered the engine mounts and even full gearbox mods but they had to really fight to get anywhere.

 

The truth is that there are an awful lot of affected vehicles out there and only a very small number have ever been fixed but I can tell you that personnel from Fiat UK are well aware of it and have been for over 2 years so if owners shout loudly enough there is a mechanism in place to deal with them. Peugeot and Citroen sell fewer vans in the UK and their 2.2 engine is less affected in motorhomes and therefore not really an issue in vans.

 

Why do we put up with it? Why do we continue to buy flawed vehicles? Simply because although we are constantly let down by Fiat and their often questionable engineering solutions; when the vans are working they are very popular with our customers and all agree without reservation that they are the best vans to drive and operate that are available on the market. We have used Ford, VW, Mercedes and Renault in the past and for the last 7 years we have run nothing but Fiat and Iveco which while not without faults have been a better financial prospect than the competition and always find new owners quickly when we are ready to update them. And I suspect that is why you all like Fiat too.

 

Nick

[Guest JudgeMental]

A link to thread over on MHF.....Not good news I am afraid. :-S

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=77494

[euroserv]

M' lud,

 

I think that post raises more questions than it answers and could possibly be that while reversing up the white cliffs of Dover in a 10m long ark caused panic to a flock of ocean birds which pierced the gearbox casing. Who knows?

 

There is always someone that attempts the unreasonable and the garage concerned must have their suspicions. His only chance is to get an independent inspection carried out and if that is favourable pass it on to Fiat for review. With compelling evidence in front of them, most manufacturers will see sense.

 

I also think that if the answer is a front wheel drive leviathon costing £50,000 or more then there must be something fundamentally wrong with the question.

 

Nick

[Mel B]

To quote the 2 pertinent posts from the MHF link:

 

Hi all I have just heard from my Fiat dealer that Fiat will not entertain a warranty claim for a new Dual Mass Flywheel,clutch assembly and a cracked bell housing and a crack in the rear gearbox casing, they say it is driver abuse that generated heat and caused the parts to fail. This is a £55,000 motorhome not a white man van?? The quote is £1760 to carry out the repairs??

 

When asked how this happened this was the answer:

 

Hi on route to Portugal halfway across Spain taking 5-6 days to get there so no rush travelling around 55 mph on a slight incline. noticed rev counter increasing no vibration no smell of burning. it happened again about an hour later on another climb so from then on started to nurse it changing down earlier etc. Managed to reach Portugal and made the journey back home we cross Dover to Calais so nearly 1900 miles each way all on main roads so no very steep 6hills. 2008 3 litre 24,000 w6hen trouble started.

 

Don't shoot me down, just trying to see both sides, this is my observation:

 

If the trouble started on the way to Portugal, surely then would've been the time to get it checked out by a Fiat garage? I appreciate that this is at the start of the holiday and not an easy thing when abroad but this may be why Fiat are refusing to do anything about it as the owner decided NOT to seek advice as to what the problem was there and then and it cannot be proved that his actions, ie driving it such a distance, once he was having problems, hasn't had an effect on the actual outcome.

 

In addition to the mileage for travelling to/from Portugal, I also wonder what mileage was done whilst on holiday - the 24,000 miles for a van registered in 2008 means over 12,000 miles a year - not a massive amount for white van man, but quite a lot for a motorhome.

 

Somehow I don't think we have the whole picture here and I too would be 'suspicious' if I were Fiat.

:-|