euroserv Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Thanks for that, Mel. Sounds like the attitude of a white van man after all. "Get there at any cost because it is covered by warranty anyway!" I would not be too critical of the dealer/Fiat in this case. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Nick Thanks for the feedback. It would be interesting to know quite why the reverse-gear ratio on certain SEVEL X/250 variants is (apparently) so much higher than the 1st-gear ratio. While it doesn't seem unusual for reverse to be higher than 1st nowadays (FWD Transits share this characteristic) and it may not matter unduly if the 1st gear ratio is ultra-low, it's strange that the X/250 'jump' is said to be so extreme. Regarding the incident reported on the MHF forum, I can't envisage any motor manufacturer accepting a warranty claim for a vehicle with that age and mileage and involving the type of damage described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Hello All, I will not be on the site until January now, so I thought I would wish everyone a very Merry Christmas etc and because this is the post most people read I thought this the best place to let you know that you can e-mail me regarding any specific queries or problems that you may have over the next couple of weeks. I will check every day. If I can help; I would be happy to. Keep warm. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Many thanks Nick and on behalf of all of us may I take this opportunity to thank you warmly for your help, support and invaluable insider info, both in general terms and on behalf of those who you have been able to help specifically behind the scenes. It is good of you to take so much time out from running your business and I think I speak for us all when I say a hearty thank you. All the best for a Happy Christmas and a Healthy and Successful New Year. Rich. PS - Just hope I don't get told off again for posting 'off topic'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 thanks nick and andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I am the owner of the van in question with the clutch problem. having been retired for several years we use our motorhome more than most people is anyone suggesting that one should spen £55000+ on a motorhome but restrict t6he use to only covering 3 or 4,000 miles a year we have traveled 10-12 thousnd miles a year since 1999 with a variety of motorhomes the last four being Swifts, our 1999 Sundance covered over 60,000 miles up to 2003 and the previous model bessacar 765 covered 48,000 up till it was replaced by the current one in 2008. we have covered 24,000 so far in this one We take care when loading the van as weight is fuel and fuel is money are still on the original tyres and return 24-26 miles to the gallon. We called in to a Fiat garage in Spain as soon as this happened and he road tested it but could not make it slip under normal driving as it had only happened twice it was not a case of white man van get it there at any cost it was a couple with two dogs who took the advice of the garage that it was ok to continue or I could have a new clutch fitted but it would take a week and what is one supposed to do then unless you are faced with a similar problem it would be usefull to have the facts before condeming the driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I hate to be critical of a new user to this forum but if you gave all the facts it is possible others would not be critical of you. I read the original posts on MHF and I cannot recall you ever mentioned going to a Fiat garage and being told it was ok to continue. It just seemed as if you had a slipping clutch and simply ignored it, then drove several thousand miles on it, a sure recipe for trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Hi Weldlted, welcome to the nut house! :-D I'm still confused, if the Spanish garage said it was okay and they couldn't find the slipping fault, then why did they offer to replace the clutch? It doesn't make sense to me??? Why would Fiat have authorised a replacement to the clutch if there wasn't a fault found??? As for the mileage, there's no problem with how much mileage you do overall, that's purely up to you and its good to see someone making good use of their motorhome, but to do a large mileage when you have a problem, regardless of whether the Fiat guy could find it, is what's perplexing. As Rupert has already said, we can only comment on the facts we are given, if there is anything else we are missing please let us know so we can re-think this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 you said quote ... took the advice of the garage that it was ok to continue or I could have a new clutch fitted but it would take a week and what is one supposed to do.sorry to say have a new clutch fitted and spend a week in a hotel paid for by fiat under campervan care . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Can anyone explain how a slipping clutch can cause bell-housing and gearbox castings to crack? I have no experience of failing DMFs (yet :-)), but would assume that even if continually slipping the result fairly soon would be smoke, nasty smell, and no propulsion. I think that is all that would happen with a conventional clutch. I've experienced a couple of life expired clutches in the past, and all that happened with those was if I pressed too hard on the accelerator, the revs went up but the speed didn't. Gentle driving until I could afford the inevitable didn't cause any damage, leave alone crack castings.So, is it not at least feasible the cracks were the cause of the slipping clutch, and not the result, and the Spanish garage merely failed to spot them? I'm also puzzled that a clutch, bell housing, and gearbox can all be replaced for £1,760. Surely that cost must be less then the true cost of all parts required, plus labour? Is there not some warranty element that is being attended to here and not mentioned? Is someone pulling strange parts of someone else's anatomy? It Ted Lawton being had, and being asked to part pay for a repair that should be entirely met by Fiat? This sounds a bit like BBB to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Sorry I need to make a couple of points clear the garage would only replace the clutch if I paid for it as they would not undertake it as a warranty issue as at the time they road tested it it did not slip. the diagnosis as to the crack in the gearbox turned out to be the end casing at the bottom are four tapped blind holes where the mounting is bolted to, three of the four threads were damaged two of them had no thread at all left in them and one of those had a small crack at the side of the tapped hole. How my driving could have caused these faults is beyond me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 So is this a misquote?"Hi all I have just heard from my Fiat dealer that Fiat will not entertain a warranty claim for a new Dual Mass Flywheel,clutch assembly and a cracked bell housing and a crack in the rear gearbox casing, they say it is driver abuse that generated heat and caused the parts to fail."What of the cracked bell housing? Presumably the end casting on the gearbox must be replaced to ensure the mounting has viable fixings? Have these been repaired/replaced, under warranty or otherwise?What was the £1,760 actually for, just the clutch which Fiat would not accept was defective after apparently not failing at 24,000 miles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 The only thing I can think of as to why everything could have got so hot without you realising is when you did notice the clutch slipping on a hill the heat generated from that along with previous damage from a failing clutch reversing had damaged the rubber damper in the flywheel. THis could have now been slipping and generatng its own heat. The other factor is if the Rubber had been damaged and not doing its job then at certain speeds the clutch assembly could have had extra vibrational torque forces on it cause it to lose its grip (stiction) and it would slip momentarily every rev of the engine. This would generate a lot of heat but no apparent slip. There is another factor which also could be involved, and that is driving with too low and engine RPM. Low RPM is when a DMF flywheel works its hardest, damping out the peak torque. So it is possible, by what you think is careful driving, moving up the gears quickly and keeping engine speeds low you were unwittingly stressing the DMF all the time. A bit like the old 5th gear problem where a weak gear was being highlighted by low engine speeds. As top the cracked threaded flanges, sounds like damage was done when clutch was 1st replaced by the fitter not tightening up the bolts correctly. The threads may have been stripped then. Is it possible the fitter greased the bolts and then he hydaulically cracked the flange tighening the bolt - evidence of grease would be seen on the bolts in this situation I would have thought. So these are just thoughts, and be interesting to read results of the independant engineers report once parts are inspected. Good luck with a successful outcome and getting FIAT to accept more of the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Hi Brambles thank you for your thoughts I actually did the opposite changing up later and changing down earlier to avoid the torque stress to the clutch etc not keeping the revs down but using the gears to avoid stress and watching the rev counter carefully. there was no noticable vibration and no smell of burning and made the journey home over 8 days so no rush no fuss just lots of patience. We were still able to travel around 50 mph most of the time. The parts replaced were the end casing of the gearbox, DM Flywheel, clutch assembly, and the slave cylinder, The only thing I wonder but it just may be a good parts service is that if the problem with the gearbox casing is only down to my bad driving the parts arrived in three days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I will try to attach the photo of the casing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 try again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Your photo is probably too big you will need to reduce it to under a 100k to enable posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Weldted, have PMed you my email address, if you fail to post email it to me and I wil try and post. Also means I wil get in higher resolution which might be beneficial and I can zoom in on any detailed bits of interest and post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 All of this episode is crying out to me 'What a heap of crap' Fiats are, How badly they treat their customers, and If an 'Improved' part (DMF Flywheel) is less reliable and less durable and yet is more expensive, then the 'Improved' part is a liability, and reversion to the original design should be implemented as soon as possible. As is happening in the USA with various companies offering 'Solid Flywheel' kits to replace frequently failing DMF's. I'm not a 'Luddite' but if something 'doesn't work' then Scrap the idea and start again. *-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 weldted - 2009-12-31 10:07 AM .......... The parts replaced were the end casing of the gearbox, DM Flywheel, clutch assembly, and the slave cylinder, ............ So, you still have the cracked bell housing in place, but Fiat replaced the gearbox end casting, and the DMF, under warranty, rejecting the clutch assembly, which you had to pay for? If correct, it seems you may have been overcharged for the clutch job, which should have been parts only, all associated labour being in any case necessary to fit a replacement DMF and covered under warranty. Jon (Brambles) seems to think you have now had two clutches replaced. Is this the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Brain, you are not entirely up todate with the whole story. see http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-77494-days0-orderasc-30.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Stripped threads on the mount! we've been here before, I'll see if I can dig out the photo's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Didn't take too long, here's some photo's of mount and bolt that where found to be damaged/missing some time after mount change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Brambles - 2009-12-31 2:09 PM Brain, you are not entirely up todate with the whole story. see http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-77494-days0-orderasc-30.html Thanks for the link, Jon. How right you are! So, the bell housing crack doesn't exist. OK, that's out of the way. The clutch had previously failed and been replaced, to do which the end gearbox mounting would have to have been removed. The only fair presumption is that the re-fit was not correctly completed and the subsequent damage is due to the firm who carried out that work - possibly the same firm that is now saying Fiat will not authorise the repair? To be fair, if I were Fiat that is what I would say. The repair cost is/should be the liability of the firm who miss-fitted the mounting. Proving that........tricky, but possible within reasonable doubt.The damaged clutch component is stated to be a rubber damper element in the DMF, which it is now (apparently) claimed survived the first burn-out without damage, but has been terminally damaged during the second clutch failure. This reasoning seems to me rather convenient for Fiat! Had a full replacement been carried out the first time, any heat damage now visible would give conclusive evidence as to when it occurred. As things stand, it seems it does not, but fairness would suggest accepting that the damage to the DMF rubber damper was missed the first time round. But seriously, rubber in clutches??!!!For a fuller picture, one would need to know exactly what was replaced under warranty following the first burn out. As the van was so new, I guess it is possible just the driven plate may have been replaced, re-fitting all other existing components. Ted presumably knows the firm, but hanky panky over what was actually fitted, and what Fiat were charged for fitting, might possibly explain some of the apparent anomalies.If new components were fitted the first time round, and are now heat damaged, the conclusion must be that the heat was generated since they were fitted. I suppose that may be possible if the minor slipping that Ted noticed was generating heat, but the fumes etc were all left behind in the van slip-stream, so no danger signs were noted. On the other hand, if visibly heat damaged components cannot conclusively be shown to have been replaced, then the fair conclusion would be that the heat was all generated during the first burn out, leaving the second failure due to the "skill" of the fitter who replaced the clutch - and presumably that gearbox mounting. After all, he has form! :-)I hope Ted is acting with Trading Standards guidance, but if he is not, would suggest he approaches them PDQ! Paying for an engineer to inspect and report, and paying to retain the parts, indicates he intends legal action. It is very unlikely this will be a cut and dried case - it seems to me to have more kinks than a Scotsman's walking stick! He needs to proceed with great caution to ensure he has all the right ducks in the right rows, or it could get very costly! So, good luck Ted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 After the first time around of viewing the photo's of stripped threads in the casting I was concerned that there might be a problem when replacing mounts, at time I urged owners to check the mounting bolts, as none came back to post otherwise I assumed it must have been a one off, I would once again urge owners who have had the mounts replaced to check they are bolted down correctly, if you look at photo you can see a gap under one bolt, make sure your bolts are not like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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