Derek Uzzell Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 As Brambles points out, there are plenty of plausible explanations for the gearbox-casing damage. They will all have merit, but I can't see how it will be possible at this late stage to guess which explanation is correct. I do wonder if it's not counter-productive to be discussing weldted's case on this and the MHF forum, as it's clearly producing duplication and misunderstandings. There are currently 6 MHF pages on the subject and much of what's been said here had already been gnawed over on the following MHF thread: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=77494 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 weldted - 2010-01-05 9:33 PM It has to be in the first instance the supplying dealer as that is who the contract of sale is. And the instigator will be me!! if I have to So, first and most important question, have all your dealings with the Fiat garage been arranged via the supplying dealer, or is the supplying dealer a Fiat authorised workshop? If the answer to either question is no, how can you now expect the supplying dealer to become responsible for the failings of some other company? Second question, what case exactly (I would advise against answering on here, but just to think on), would you bring against the supplying dealer? I really think it is time to go to your local Trading Standards (TS) people, and possibly, on their advice, talk to a solicitor who is expert in consumer law. I only say this because, as I understand present consumer law, you risk costing yourself quite a bit of money with no prospect of success. My opinion, as a non-lawyer: I think you will find you are in a very tenuous position regarding getting compensation from anyone other than garage that carried out the first clutch replacement, and that compensation will be limited to the cost of rectifying the damaged gearbox mountings. To be able to make any kind of claim against Fiat, you will have to prove, beyond the proverbial reasonable doubt (which means proving to that extent in court, not just in your own mind), that the clutch failed because of a fault/faults in its materials or workmanship. Fiat have already judged both to be acceptable, which is why they have rejected your claims to date. The proof, in either case, will require "expert witnesses" to present irrefutable evidence one way or the other. My advice from TS is that cases against manufacturers for failure to comply with their own warranty terms are very, very, difficult and my local office does not recommend that route.Both clutches are claimed to have been heat damaged. Presumably, this can only have happened during use of the vehicle. So, unless someone else has driven the vehicle and caused the damage (which would hardly help your proposed case), who is likely to be blamed for the damage? I really, really, doubt that can be pinned on the supplying dealer! Please, Ted, talk to TS soon, and take expert advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBS Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Brian - just to clarify - isn't it 'balance of probability' in a civil case? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I am acting on advice from trading standards from day one and their advice my Solicitor and with much help from the supplying dealer. I took it to The Fiat Dealer at their suggestion as although they sell them they are not authorised Fiat repair agents. I am the only one that has ever driven this van except when it was in for service, and the garage that fitted the first clutch was acting on instructions recived from Fiat. I have also been contacted by Fiat and they have stated that on receipt of the independant engineers report, their warranty department will look at the case again. And whilst I appreciate everyones point of view some recent comments could be regarded as giving Fiat the information they need to argue the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Ted, my apologies, but this was not at all clear hitherto. I wish you the very best of luck your case. Have contributions on here, or MHF, given ammunition to others? Unlikely, I think. We can only speculate based on what you have said on here. The true facts will be established by the experts - and will presumably speak for themselves. I was concerned that you appeared to be pursuing a difficult course without necessary advice. I am sure others will have been similarly motivated. Had you said what you have just said at the outset (or said nothing at all), we could all have quietly awaited the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 As the Owners of 3 Litre manuals that judder don't seem to be able to get any 'Joy' from Fiat. I thought that a 'Bounce' to the top was in order, until they do. Any News anyone ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Many thanks to all that have posted replies to this, having now received the Independent Engineer's and a second report from another source it is now in legal process and I have been advised to make no further comment at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Welted, Good luck with your due process and a successfull outcome, I am sure that the whole community here is behind you. Kind regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Just thought I aught to post the longer term results of my "fix" Autotrail Cheyenne 630LB on X250 130bhp. Reg March 2008, chassis supplied to Autotrail June 2007. Very evident shudder before fix. Fix A & B ( clutch, damper, engine mountings & new reverse gear) carried out at County Motors Carlisle May 2009, Just short of 5000 miles since, a fair bit in the Pyrenees. Vehicle now reverses without problems, reversing up my 1 in 12 drive round tight 180 degree curve on tickover with occasional feathering of clutch. No problems up much steeper gradients. No change to performance in forward gears, the only difference I noted that clutch was a little more fierce for a while. Hope this is of use. Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 tonyg3nwl - 2010-01-05 8:40 PM Hi, A stupid question no doubt, but has anyone with a juddering/torque vibration x250 2.2l Peugeot based van actually had a successful cure applied . I dont mean a "slight improvement" or other such vague phrases, but an honest statement that juddering/vibration has been completely eradicated and reverse is now as smooth as any forward gear use. If so, what was the successful cure, part numbers etc, and where was it done. edit. Six speed gearbox model please Tony g3nwl As I have been completely underwhelmed by the response to this question I am pondering the reasons. Maybe there is no one who can read, or no one who has a six speed peugeot based vehicle., other explanation might be they have been gagged, so cant reply, or simply cant be bothered. Alternatively, they could be away in the sunshine enjoying their vehicle, or maybe they never go backwards so dont know if it judders. worse still I could be the only one who has a problem, and there is no truth whatever in the judder theory, and as Peugeot tell me, it doesnt judder cos they fixed it and what I have is torque vibration I have just been reviewing the emails I have on file on the subject, and now have to locate the relevant warranty claim file for the August work. It would help if anyone can reply to my original question tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diydoolittle Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 tonyg3nwl - 2010-01-17 9:19 AM tonyg3nwl - 2010-01-05 8:40 PM Hi, A stupid question no doubt, but has anyone with a juddering/torque vibration x250 2.2l Peugeot based van actually had a successful cure applied . I dont mean a "slight improvement" or other such vague phrases, but an honest statement that juddering/vibration has been completely eradicated and reverse is now as smooth as any forward gear use. If so, what was the successful cure, part numbers etc, and where was it done. edit. Six speed gearbox model please Tony g3nwl As I have been completely underwhelmed by the response to this question I am pondering the reasons. Maybe there is no one who can read, or no one who has a six speed peugeot based vehicle., other explanation might be they have been gagged, so cant reply, or simply cant be bothered. Alternatively, they could be away in the sunshine enjoying their vehicle, or maybe they never go backwards so dont know if it judders. worse still I could be the only one who has a problem, and there is no truth whatever in the judder theory, and as Peugeot tell me, it doesnt judder cos they fixed it and what I have is torque vibration I have just been reviewing the emails I have on file on the subject, and now have to locate the relevant warranty claim file for the August work. It would help if anyone can reply to my original question tonyg3nwl I think there were a couple of people on motorhomefacts with peugeots who have had a fix that I recall. Neither post here. Think one was johnc and the other zebedee (usernames on facts). One was happy with it and the other was going back I think. A look at Andys thread on facts should hopefully have the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted January 20, 2010 Author Share Posted January 20, 2010 Peugeot have had about as much success as Fiat with the modifications. In other words a real mixed bag ranging from those who say it has been transformed, to those who have suffered from subequent problems from either duff parts or faulty workmanship of the mods. And everything in between. It's late, I've not been checking the forums recently (too busy working) but tomorrow I'll go through the differences between what Peugeot have been doing, as against Fiat, and despite the differences some remarkably similar results. I was going to be less active with the forums for now, as I'm not sure they are having much effect on pushing Fiat any further towards either giving out any useful information about exactly when they started fitting the lower ratio reverse gear into the production models - which of course Fiat claimed didn't have a generic fault with the too high reverse gear. There is also the matter of the 3 litre models and their appetite for clutches when reversing up hills which they seem to have decided occurs infrequently enough to ignore - and also ignore the customers who have been the victims of this. Again I'm not sure that Fiat are taking much notice of the forums now - having beaten the majority (2.3 owners) into submission and grateful for an improvement rather than a proper solution ....... but I keep getting emails recently from owners who have yet to have the work done asking why we aren't still kicking up a fuss........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Hi, I now have traced the warranty invoices for work on my 2.2.ltr autocruise Stargazer on boxer chassis and have the relevant part numbers used at each of the 3 attempts Total cost of 3 invoices adds up to 6023.02 pounds and if this is representative of everyone's van who have had the alleged fixes, there is little wonder why there is significant reluctance to attempt fixes by the vehicle makers. It is particularly galling that in spite of the expensive attempts, success is only marginal, judder/torque vibration still exists, and there is "no further option available" My vehicle is now fitted with "new mec gearbox pn p00002231K8 Dual flywheel pn00000532Q8 Clutch Kit pn00002052p8 and also has been fitted with Support yoke p0000180691 egrvalve p00001618hq link p0000180695 Shock absorber p00001846c2 Mounting bracket p0000182136 " Has anyone any info regarding gear ratios from this part no information. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I think that the spares prices are irrelavent, Fiat manufacture them anyway, the real cost is in the labour to fit them. And we shouldn't be crying any tears for them , after all it is they that released these 'Defective Products' to the market, The only people who deserve any thought at all are the poor sods who shelled out vast amounts of money on a vehicle that ANY engineer, when told that the reverse gear was higher or the same ratio as first gear, would have said 'This is going to cause problems' , and then the folly of adding a Dual Mass flywheel to the Heaviest models (with 3 litre engines) just adds to the (cost) Folly. 'A plague on all their houses' Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen. >:-( Ray PS and I wont be going to the NEC to look at more halls full of the same defective Brands of base Vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Andy A question, have you contacted Which? as I am sure they would be interested. Not being an X250 owner myself, I feel it would be inappropriate for me to raise the matter with them (I am a member of Which?). As this is such a long-running matter, it now needs a bit of muscle behind it to compel Fiat to own-up and Which? could easily provide it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ina Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Went to the Manchester Show yesterday (only 'cos I'd won tickets for it!). Not very impressed with it, mainly caravans, but had a chat with one salesman, who said that "there are no problems with the 2.2 and 2.3 litre models, it is ONLY THE 3 LITRE MODELS WHICH HAVE PROBLEMS"!!??!! Amazing what they'll tell you, didn't get anywhere trying to discuss it, so gave up. Reason was that friends of ours were interested in a Bessacarr, (on a 2.2 litre) and we got involved in the conversation. A salesman from another company said that all problems are now fixed, any problems are now "historical" and that buying any new van now would be fine. Had a long conversation, the salesman thought we were making a mistake by narrowing down our choice of van by excluding FIAT, as all new vehicles are now ok, in the end we agreed to differ. Thought this may be of interest. Ina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Hymer584 - 2010-01-23 11:59 AM Went to the Manchester Show yesterday (only 'cos I'd won tickets for it!). Not very impressed with it, mainly caravans, but had a chat with one salesman, who said that "there are no problems with the 2.2 and 2.3 litre models, it is ONLY THE 3 LITRE MODELS WHICH HAVE PROBLEMS"!!??!! Amazing what they'll tell you, didn't get anywhere trying to discuss it, so gave up. Reason was that friends of ours were interested in a Bessacarr, (on a 2.2 litre) and we got involved in the conversation. A salesman from another company said that all problems are now fixed, any problems are now "historical" and that buying any new van now would be fine. Had a long conversation, the salesman thought we were making a mistake by narrowing down our choice of van by excluding FIAT, as all new vehicles are now ok, in the end we agreed to differ. Thought this may be of interest. Ina. These comments are typical sales patter and should be treated with contempt, Fiat are now addressing the situation only because owners have kicked up a fuss and with relentless support from Andy. Give the dealership a wide berth and tell the salesman why. One day it might be announced that the transmission problem has been resolved and pigs might fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ina Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 rolandrat - 2010-01-23 12:44 PM Hymer584 - 2010-01-23 11:59 AM Went to the Manchester Show yesterday (only 'cos I'd won tickets for it!). Not very impressed with it, mainly caravans, but had a chat with one salesman, who said that "there are no problems with the 2.2 and 2.3 litre models, it is ONLY THE 3 LITRE MODELS WHICH HAVE PROBLEMS"!!??!! Amazing what they'll tell you, didn't get anywhere trying to discuss it, so gave up. Reason was that friends of ours were interested in a Bessacarr, (on a 2.2 litre) and we got involved in the conversation. A salesman from another company said that all problems are now fixed, any problems are now "historical" and that buying any new van now would be fine. Had a long conversation, the salesman thought we were making a mistake by narrowing down our choice of van by excluding FIAT, as all new vehicles are now ok, in the end we agreed to differ. Thought this may be of interest. Ina. These comments are typical sales patter and should be treated with contempt, Fiat are now addressing the situation only because owners have kicked up a fuss and with relentless support from Andy. Give the dealership a wide berth and tell the salesman why. One day it might be announced that the transmission problem has been resolved and pigs might fly. No way do we believe all that. Trouble is our friends seemed to be taken in by the fact that "the salesman said that there are no problems". They haven't followed this thread, but had "heard about the problems". Obviously we've enlightened them. When we told the second salesman we were looking to change as well, but didn't want a FIAT, he asked why? Answer was: you know the reason as well as we do. He admitted he knew exactly what we meant, and then went on to say there were no more problems, everything was sorted out, etc, etc. It's just unbelievable that they still try and bluff it all out, trouble is, a lot of people, who are either new to motorhoming or just aren't aware of the problems for whatever reason, believe them. Ina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 I expect that 'New' 'New' vans that are rolling off the assembly lines now DO have an Improved Gearbox with 'Hopefully' more sensible reverse gear ratios, but how would we know ?? we don't, as Fiat etc., have been Dishonest, Shady, putting out false propaganda, and blaming everyone BUT themselves. We (intending purchasers) need to know definitavely WHEN this new gearbox was fitted (a production date). And a technical spec. that Includes gearbox ratios (other manufacturers do this as a matter of course). The problem is that vans from Sevel can sit around for Months and Months before being shipped to the converter, and again Months and Months befor reaching the dealer. It is still too dangerous, for me anyway to 'dip my toes into the water'. Until either; Fiat come clean and state when the 'Improved' gearbox was fitted (unlikely given their track record for openess) or at least a couple of years have gone by. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ina Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Rayjsj - 2010-01-24 3:34 PM I expect that 'New' 'New' vans that are rolling off the assembly lines now DO have an Improved Gearbox with 'Hopefully' more sensible reverse gear ratios, but how would we know ?? The problem is that vans from Sevel can sit around for Months and Months before being shipped to the converter, and again Months and Months befor reaching the dealer. Yes, we did make those points - how can we, as a customer, tell whether the vehicle has the "new improved" gearbox or one that has been sitting around for months on end? No satisfactory reply to that from the salesman, all he said was that we were doing ourselves no favours by not looking at FIAT based vehicles. Well, it's our money and we don't feel like gambling it away, ok, we COULD be lucky and get a van without problems, but then again.....and we're just not willing to take that risk. Ina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonofagun Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Our Swift Mondial was due to go in to our local Fiat Commercial Dealer at the end of October for the gearbox/clutch modifications. Still waiting!! Fiat says the parts have been dispatched from Italy for our van in Oct. The dealer said that parts come in dribs and drabs (but not allocated for a particular van) not complete sets and that they have many vans waiting for the modifications but no enough parts to do the jobs. The say Fiat underestimated the size of the problem. In the meantime Fiat customer services have phoned up twice to ask if I am pleased with the results of the conversion. Could they organise a ---- up in a brewery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 My sense the problem is with your dealer as others have not had similar experiences. I would speak to your Customer Services contact in Fiat again and by-pass your dealer. Are you happy with your Mondial as I'm awaiting delivery of mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonofagun Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Yes very happy with the Mondial. Ours is the RL model - the layout we wanted. Great to drive and more than big enough for the two of us. I only wish that the fridge worked on gas as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dwight Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 There do's not seem to be a problem with our 2.2. I have reversed it several times since getting it in Dec 09. I have not had to reverse it up a steep hill as yet, but then I dont normaly have to. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Sonofagun - 2010-01-25 10:59 AM Yes very happy with the Mondial. Ours is the RL model - the layout we wanted. Great to drive and more than big enough for the two of us. I only wish that the fridge worked on gas as well. Glad you are happy. We have ordered the RL as well together with a second battery and solar panel to overcome the fridge problem and of course for using off hook up on Aires in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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