AndyStothert Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 Has anyone who lives in the Preston area got a completely unmodified 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiat which I can take some photos of? I wish I'd thought of this before the modifcations had been done as it will provide a reliable guide for folk who are thinking of buying second-hand whether the gearbox modifications have been done or not. So is there anyone fairly near Preston with an unmodified one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 A photo will show if a vehicle has had the engine mount change but not sure it will indicate if the gearbox has had the lower ratio mod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 I think that all the vehicles with the lower ratio reverse gear fitted have the black clutch cylinder damper device fitted on the bellhousing, so in theory, that's the thing to look for. Some, like mine, have it fitted to the actual gearbox whilst others are attached to the clutch pipe. I just can't remember now what they all looked like before the thing was fitted, so thinking about it I could do with a photo of all three variants. The idea is to put all the info up on a website to enable future buyers and potential buyers of secondhand vehicles to reach an informed decision about what they are buying, or have bought and has just ruined its gearbox or clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Hi again Thanks to a cooperative local dealer spare parts dept, he tells me that having quoted the gearbox part number to him, he looked up the reverse gear ratio. He tells me that it is 13 to 68, ie 5.203 to 1 . Can anyone confirm whether this is the most up to date ratio in so called "new boxes" as in current production, or what the original suspect ratios were. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 In today`s Daily Express, on the motoring page, a reader asked a question and the answer is a bit surprising and may be of use to anyone affected by the Fiat affair. Q) My car recently broke down and will cost a lot to fix. The warranty expired before it happened and the dealership say there is nothing they can do. Any ideas? A) It might be there was something wrong with your car before you bought it. Under the Sale of Goods Act, goods bought have to be of satisfactory quality. You have up to six (6) years after purchase to demand damages but you will have to prove to a court that there was something wrong with the car. The seller, not the maker, is responsible if things go wrong, so you need to chase the dealership you bought the car from. Some of these points have already been raised but what surprised me was the 6 years after purchase. If I was a dealer, I would start having sleepless nights if the information in the Express is accurate. There may also be a ray of hope for Fiat owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 So are we all happy? all the six speeders been fixed? no more duff ones coming out the showrooms? All the clutchs on the 3l holding together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 747 - 2010-01-30 8:56 PM Some of these points have already been raised but what surprised me was the 6 years after purchase. If I was a dealer, I would start having sleepless nights if the information in the Express is accurate. There may also be a ray of hope for Fiat owners. That's been the case with manufactured goods for years the big but is that it is up to you prove in a court of law that there was a manufacturing defect. At the end of the day it comes down to who can afford the most expensive lawyers, my guess is it's not going to be the guy with the duff product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 In all of the postings I have read on this Fiat subject, a figure of 6 years has never been mentioned. I did not know this and I do not suppose many owners did. Owners are now worrying that Fiat will not do the mods once their vans are out of warranty. They are posting their concerns on other forums to that effect. If you knew about this 6 year period, could you not have put it in the public domain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 747 you may want to read this http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Or even this: http://tinyurl.com/yjyyamjHowever, before you get too excited, two things. Since 1974, it has been the dealer who sold the motorhome who was/is responsible for any defects in it. The manufacturers' various guarantees are additional to your legal rights against the dealer: they neither modify, restrict, nor supplant those rights.Unless you identify the defect within six months of buying, when it is automatically presumed the defect existed at the time of sale (placing the onus upon the dealer to prove that it did not), it is up to you to prove that there is, in fact, a defect. As stated, legally, this is far from easy. Due to the cost of motorhomes, the small claims procedure, which can only be applied where disputes have a value of £5,000 or less, may not be applicable, and the other legal routes are inherently much more expensive and risky. Anyone wishing to consider legal proceedings against a dealer should, first and foremost, talk to their local Trading Standards office and obtain their advice.All of this knowledge has been in the public domain since the Sale of Goods Act, the Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act, and the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations came into being. In addition, there is extensive information and excellent general guidance on both Trading Standards and Citizen's Advice websites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSHORT Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 colin - 2010-02-03 7:44 PM So are we all happy? all the six speeders been fixed? no more duff ones coming out the showrooms? All the clutchs on the 3l holding together? It would be nice to have an input from 3litre manual m/homes as to milages we have been getting out of the original clutch. Due, unfortunately to health reasons still ongoing, we have been limited to 5k. Has anyone say reached 10k, 20k or even 30k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 tonyg3nwl - 2010-01-28 9:13 AM Hi again Thanks to a cooperative local dealer spare parts dept, he tells me that having quoted the gearbox part number to him, he looked up the reverse gear ratio. He tells me that it is 13 to 68, ie 5.203 to 1 . Can anyone confirm whether this is the most up to date ratio in so called "new boxes" as in current production, or what the original suspect ratios were. tonyg3nwl I'm wary that the ratio your dealer has given you relates to reverse gear. There are three reasons for this. The 1st is gut-feeling, as the ratio sounds unusually low for reverse. The 2nd is that a tooth-number-to-tooth-number relationship is more commonly used in technical specifications for final-drive ratios. The 3rd is that "5.231:1 (68/13)" is shown on the italiaspeed website as the final-drive ratio for a X/250 Ducato 'Maxi' chassis with 2.3litre motor and 6-speed transmission. OK, I know that you've got a Boxer-based motorhome, but it's still quite a coincidence. Frankly I'm astonished that, after all this time, there's still doubt over the ratios that 'unmodified' Boxers/Ducatos/Relays have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I refer to the current Toyota woes and I know it's a bit off topic but here we have another manufacturer quoting that it's not a fault the brakes don't work it's a characteristic of the system. I quote from a Sky News Report: " Akio Toyoda ( Toyota's President) addressed the media after Toyota's British arm confirmed UK drivers have complained about a brake-system safety problem which could see 270,000 Prius cars recalled abroad. Mr Toyoda apologised to customers and said the company was still deciding what to do to fix braking problems with the popular gas-electric hybrid. Toyota GB managing director Miguel Fonseca had earlier told Sky News: "There have been a number of complaints (about the Prius) in the US and also Japan. Mr Fonseca was keen to point out that the Prius problem was not a malfunction but a "characteristic" of the brakes." I seem to remember that that was what Fiat tried at the very start of this sorry affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 Just in case any one you think that I have given up the long trail towards getting justice for having been a complete eggit in buying a Fiat Vehicle. I am still here and unfortunately still have my 3 litre motorhome. Anyway, I am continuing towards having my statutory rights recognised by pursuing action under the 1980 Supply of Goods and Services Act. Fiat did reccently have and engineer fly from Edinburgh to Belfast to take my vehicle for a spin. Have not figured out as yet what can be expected of that exercise. They have however offered me a little sweetener to go away pity I don't take sugar. Of couse that was almost two years after buying the vehicle (quality servcie). So I shall keep you informed of how we get on as we proceed in formal action for the recognition that my Vehicle is not of the quality that I should expect and did. All you 3 Litre owners feel free to contact me with your woes they will be greatfully accepted and of course my story is available to support you case should you decide as I have done to take action as I am wholly entitled to do. At least Toyota admitted they have a problem will Fiat do likewise now that the media have a motoring story. Maybe Top Gear would accept a free test drive of my vehicle. Now that's a thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 moyne - 2010-02-06 9:22 AM ...Maybe Top Gear would accept a free test drive of my vehicle... I'll have a word with Richard Hammond when I next see him. I'm sure Top Gear would welcome donor vehicles for their next Motorhome Demolition Derby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Not sure about using it for a demolition derby, but it would make for an interesting show if they were all to sit in the rear bed whilst trying to reverse on a hill, all that vibration might be of interest ;). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSHORT Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 moyne - 2010-02-07 5:50 PM Not sure about using it for a demolition derby, but it would make for an interesting show if they were all to sit in the rear bed whilst trying to reverse on a hill, all that vibration might be of interest ;). That should be the model name not Ducato but Fiat Vibrato! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Disturbing News I got a phone call from one of the converters last week to say that he had just got a a brand new 2.3 litre 6 speed Ducato in for conversion and that in his opinion it was as bad a judderer as he has yet experienced. The bad news is that it was built in September 09, and is fitted with the very latest and modified gearbox. This has been confirmed by the Fiat database. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raindrop Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 And we were considering a similar construction during the 2010 year too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le canichot depang Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 We have a 2008 peugeot 2.2 six speed box and have had no problems whatsoever with the reverse gear, we have travelled extensively and this year in the Scottish Hightlands we had to reverse some 50m up a 7% hill to let a delivery truck through (on the single road) and had no problems, maybe we are just the lucky ones. At a fuel stop in France the mechanic did tell us that the six speed box was the better one to have, are there any others out there with a good gear box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le canichot depang Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 We have a 2008 peugeot 2.2 six speed box and have had no problems whatsoever with the reverse gear, we have travelled extensively and this year in the Scottish Hightlands we had to reverse some 50m up a 7% hill to let a delivery truck through (on the single road) and had no problems, maybe we are just the lucky ones. At a fuel stop in France the mechanic did tell us that the six speed box was the better one to have, are there any others out there with a good gear box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel wood Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 le canichot d'epang - 2010-02-10 11:19 PM We have a 2008 peugeot 2.2 six speed box and have had no problems whatsoever with the reverse gear, we have travelled extensively and this year in the Scottish Hightlands we had to reverse some 50m up a 7% hill to let a delivery truck through (on the single road) and had no problems, maybe we are just the lucky ones. At a fuel stop in France the mechanic did tell us that the six speed box was the better one to have, are there any others out there with a good gear box? We also have a 2008 Peugeot but ours is the 2.2 5 speed gearbox. Absolutely no problems with reversing (or going forwards!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Le canichot: While there's plainly been a 'juddering' problem with SEVEL X/250 vehicles considered as a species (otherwise the manufacturers wouldn't be taking any curative action), that's no reason to assume that every individual X/250-based motorhome will be equally affected. The simplistic view seems to be that a reverse-gear ratio considerably higher than the 1st-gear ratio makes a vehicle essentially undrivable. This could well be the case, but only if the 1st-gear ratio were also high. If the 1st-gear ratio were low, then a reverse-gear ratio, say, 20% higher might still be usable except in extreme circumstances. I believe you own an Autocruise Startrail. This is a quite large vehicle and it's likely that the lowest available final-drive ratio will have been selected for the transmission it's fitted with. I recall reading magazine reports of X/250-based motorhomes that have highlighted that the vehicle on test's 1st-gear was particularly low. If that's the case with your Startrail (and, as a driver, you should be able to detect this), then, even if your motorhome's reverse-gear ratio is a good deal higher than 1st, this factor may not matter during normal day-to-day use. It's also worth adding that a 7% incline is not the type of challenge that has been regularly suggested on this forum to establish whether or not an X/250-based motorhome is 'judder free'. Instead 20%-25% slopes have been recommended. Such inclines are STEEP and I'm doubtful that any modern front-wheel drive coachbuilt motorhome could be expected to start and reverse slowly up such a hill (for even a shortish distance) without a serious risk of mechanical damage resulting. I'd be reasonably confident of attempting your 50m/7% reversing manoeuvre with my high-geared Hobby, but, if faced with 50m/20%, I'd be mentally writing out a big repair-bill cheque as I engaged the clutch. Generally: As far as I'm concerned, if X/250-based motorhomes aren't being compared on a like-with-like basis (ie. same motors, same gearboxes, same final-drive ratios, same MAMs, same 'tests'), then any conclusions drawn from those comparisons will inevitably be questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Would it help if 16" wheels were fitted instaed of the usual 15" wheels. That would lower the ratio. Has anyone tried it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Mike88 - 2010-02-11 12:15 PM Would it help if 16" wheels were fitted instaed of the usual 15" wheels. That would lower the ratio. Has anyone tried it? Hi Mike, I think you mean the other way round (the reverse!). 15 inch wheels instead if 16 inch will in effect increase the ratio (or a lower gear as people seem to call it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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