Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[Brian Kirby]

Sorry, double post!  :-(

[diydoolittle]

This may have been mentioned elsewhere but I do not recall.

If you bring a case against someone say Joe Bloggs Motorhome Dealer, if they believe a third party is fully/partly responsible for the problems with the vehicle, they (Joe Bloggs Motorhome Dealer) can add this party to the action. Whether they do or not is up to them, but I would be surprised if any dealer was willing to take full responsibility for the judder problems, however that is definitely NOT a given.

 

WHAT IS A THIRD-PARTY COMPLAINT?

A Third-Party Complaint is a lawsuit against a party who has not been named in the lawsuit, but whom the Defendant believes is responsible for the damages claimed by the Plaintiff.

 

 

[AndyStothert]

In all the cases which have come to my attention the action has been joined by the two other parties involved.

As far as I know none of these have yet got near a courtroom, but been settled on the brink.

The disappointing thing is that not one of those owners, once they got satisfaction, was willing to 'go public' on the matter.

Several did have a confidentiality clause as part of the setttlement, but, its still all a bit selfish.

[Rayjsj]

The very fact that Fiat want it kept confidential SHOUTS very loudly to me.

'Keep well away from this company and ANY of it's products.'

Bit of a shame that, since just about all of the volume Motorcaravan manufacturers especially in the UK use them, almost exclusively.

For a Vehicle to be able to Reverse up a moderately steep hill without burning out it's Clutch and or Flywheel assm. or Vibrating so hard that the Gearbox gets damaged, to me seems such a basic requirement as to be 'taken as bloody obvious' . Vehicles of 20 years ago were capable of this task, so should (so called) marvels of modern 'Green euro 4 & 5' technology. (personally I don't give a stuff what 'Euro' it is, as long as it 'Performs' as I want it to). and that means Reversing up hills when required to do so. Ray

[moyne]

Well, for all you put there that think that this guy is going to sign a document of any kind that will cause me to be silenced watch out for the two stars in the East ! Any and all proceedings must unfortunatley be taken against the seller ! However the manufacturer may and can be brought into any such action, but this choice shall not be mine or maybe it will be. I have great faith in the justice system to produce a judgment which will be correct.

 

The laws there to protect and does not always suit but if we don't use it then we obviously can not complain about it's protection. I fully intend to move forward with my action whatever course it shall take well that shall be seen in due course.

 

But please any of you out there go to your solicitor and take advice don't do as I do do what you feel is correcct !

[Empgamer]

Well this thread (and the other three than run to 40 pages plus) make VERY interesting reading.

 

A few years back we were considering a MH and the mags were raving about the Fiat base and that buyers were very well served by it. This issue throws a completely different light on the subject and, whilst I have not read EVERY post in all the threads, as a potential customer I think this issue is apalling, and the handling of it more so.

 

We are in the market this year (likely for edlivery early next) for a new MH. One thing is now very certain. It will NOT be based on a Fiat of ANY description!! Even if our choices are severly curtailed and the cost increases. To buy a Fiat based MH to me is simply too much of a risk, particularly when one considers the slow response many customers get if the problem occurs (unless of course Fiat take an exception to something you might say about their employees).

 

Many thanks for all the information and I hope that those with problems get them sorted to their satisfaction. Personally I have ZERO confidence in the Fiat MH base. ZERO!

[PSHORT]

Join the club, you me and many many others will never ever buy any Fiat or Fiat based product product, that includes our motorhome when we come to change.

Paul

[moyne]

PSHORT - 2010-02-15 9:13 AM

 

Join the club, you me and many many others will never ever buy any Fiat or Fiat based product product, that includes our motorhome when we come to change.

Paul

 

But do Fiat as a company care, well, they do have a customer care centre who will call you in fact they may even call you many times. In my case they called me to ask me how I was satisfied with the care they have yet to give me. In fact they were so caring that they didn't even care to look at the comments I gave to the nice customer care person and believe me I was little caring on how I felt when I let loose.

 

So to the uncaring person from Fiat who reads all this and says little believe me from a small ember comes a large fire. So for not giving a S**t on how we as customers feel about your vehicles you will be in no doubt be caring in the future when it's your job is on the line for not looking after it.

 

Oh yes you only make comment when it's a memberr of your staff that gets lambasted then the awakening happens if only we could rely on getting action as quick from you on other points.

[moyne]

My vehicle was up in NI Trucks in Belfast two weeks ago for a service, the previous week I was also up for a service but after waiting for 3 hours in the waiting room I could wait no longer because they were unable to start the work so I was forced to re- schedule. They notified me at this point that the vehicle according to Fiat was bought in Novemeber 2007 and thus was out of warranty. I pointed out that the vehicle was bought in March 2008 and the registration was 08 DL *** as required by law the year of purchase is the year of registration.

 

They asked me to bring up the tax book. So when I was there for the service two weeks ago I got our solicitors to fax the log book to NI Trucks. This was done at 10.30 in the morning. I went off for the day and returned at 3.30 pm to find that Fiat were unable (or unwilling) to update their records of the warranty. So required warranty work could not be completed (I was not happy!) but what's new !

 

Anyhow, I called today two weeks later to book the vehicle in for the required warranty recal which is the relacment of a throttle valve. Low and behold NI Truck say that Fiat have not yet updated the warranty and thus unless I am willing to pay they cannot do the work.

 

Perhaps if that nice customer care personage who reads this could assist me a customer (soon hopefully to be an ex customer). By calling or emailing NI Trucks and get yoursleves organised, one could walk from Turin to Belfast in two weeks, so why is it you cannot get that electronic system to update your records in two weeks or to be correct two years as that is how long it has been since I brought my vehcile first to your attention with its wonky gearbox.

 

 

What a bunch !

 

 

[rupert123]

Gerald you keep blaming Fiat for stuff that is not their fault. It is the dealer who has to register the sale of the vehicle with Fiat for start of the warrenty period, you should then get a letter from Fiat confirming this. Either you did not bother to check this letter properly or your dealer registered it on the wrong date. The great majority of people now are saying that Fiat are responding promptly to reports of reverse gear problems and only today, Nick of Euroserve, reports all his 3 litre vans have performed without fault.

[moyne]

rupert123 - 2010-02-15 8:51 PM

 

Gerald you keep blaming Fiat for stuff that is not their fault. It is the dealer who has to register the sale of the vehicle with Fiat for start of the warrenty period, you should then get a letter from Fiat confirming this. Either you did not bother to check this letter properly or your dealer registered it on the wrong date. The great majority of people now are saying that Fiat are responding promptly to reports of reverse gear problems and only today, Nick of Euroserve, reports all his 3 litre vans have performed without fault.

Aha the presumption a great word. !

 

So it's not Fiat's fault that they manufactured a vehicle, did the research and development and put their name on the front of it just to make sure you knew who made it.

 

So just to put your picture in focus. I purchased my vehicle in March 2008 10 days or so after purchase I re visited seller who contacted Dethleff who contacted Fiat in Turin Fiat. Fiat contacted me by way of the local dealer (since gone bust) who said rev it up more ! and did nothing else. ! ( I got that wit of wisdom by fax from the Fiat agent). I contacted Fiats manager in Ireland and he did nothing ! Not so much as a return email or phone call.

 

After hounding them for a year they eventually got me to take it to Belfast to a Fiat garage. Fiat contacted the garage directly from Turin and told them not to investigate the vehicle as they had no fix for this judder (Fiat put this in writing).

 

My supplier contacted Fiat customer in the first few weeks of ownership they did nothing for almost two years.

 

Now let me get this straight this not Fiats fault and I should not blame them for my 85 grand vehicle that cannot be used, well that is not actually true it can be used as long as I make sure it does not require reversing !

 

So lets take the register bit, how often would you suggest that the dealer have to do that one, because he has also completed that action. In fact he has often registed vehciles with Fiat who as in my case cannot find the paper work. The dealr naturally keeps records of all correspondence to them so there is a trail.

 

In fact when he contacted Fiat they at one point said that the chassis number of my vehicle does not exist. The vehicle was registered once I bought it, if it had not been where did those nice girls in customer care get my info to contact me to ask how I was loving my brand new smoking motorhome. I do hope the picture is getting focused for you.

 

Fiat are not responding, not a single person I am aware of who has a 3 litre has had the problem solved. I do not have the problem solved and as far as Nick from Euroserve who ever he is I have not had any contact with him so I cannot comment on his ability nor his non faulty vehicles. Maybe Nick should test drive my vehicle and see the engineering reports on it and also the correspondence from Fiat which states that it has a Judder but Fiat are happy that it does and don't have a fix.

 

So if you would permit me my rantings, I put blame where it belongs and with good reason and with well considered opinion. So Rupert 123 I fear your assertion that I did not bother or my dealer cannot tell November 2007 from March 2008 is wrong. We may be Irish, but fools we are not !

 

 

Oh by the way Fiat have yet to send me any correspondence of any kind on any matter other than that which pertains to the fault in the gearbox. They did not write to tell me or the dealer that there were call backs issues which needed to be addressed on the vehicle, I only found this out when NI Trucks looked up their system and they were logged but not informed to me. But they did have it logged on the system who owned the vehicle mabe they have crystal balls (no pun intended)

 

The dealer I must say in my case has always been supportive to me and is as frustrated as I am with Fiat. Being one of the largest dealers in motorhomes in the UK and Ireland I have no doubt at this stage he is able to register a vehicle ! I know he reads this thread so he might even comment on your accustation of his incompetance.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Raindrop]

Very well put and explained says I.

 

Are we all to assume as Rupert123 suggests that FIAT have never made a faulty M/H ?

 

So why is it then that Fiat have received more bad publicity than all the other makers added together?

 

 

[moyne]

It's morning and I have taken my calm pills ! (I jest) !

 

The sun shines on my juddering motorhome. Were I to sit and wait for Fiat to address the issue which I have brought to their attention two years ago I would be well tired at this stage. Could someone tell me who Euroserve is and how they have been so fortunate.

 

Fiat's new commercial agent in Ireland cannot get my chssis number on their system at all maybe there is a cable out and euroserve could let them know where to plug it in to.

 

When this thread ends as it shall do, I think I shall publish a book on how a Motor Company can take the "Word Customer Care" and put a whole new meaning to it.

 

A hefty volume it shall be ! As I am currently engagaing on a thesis perhaps I shall use Fiat's manual on how they did or not, their way.

 

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

Don't be harsh on Euroserv as Nick is a kind hearted businessman running a large fleet of various vans.

 

He has no connection with Motorhomes but he is well informed about commercial vehicles of the kind that we use as base vehicles and he is kind enough to share his knowledge and expertise with us.

 

 

[rupert123]

Lord Raindrop - 2010-02-16 12:51 AM

 

Very well put and explained says I.

 

Are we all to assume as Rupert123 suggests that FIAT have never made a faulty M/H ?

 

So why is it then that Fiat have received more bad publicity than all the other makers added together?

 

 

Not sure where I suggested Fiat never made a faulty M/H. Fiat have more problems reported because they are the van base for around 85% of all M/H and this is growing. As for Moynes reply I have no doubt that he has a problem but the bit about the warrenty is strange to say the least. The bad publicity mainly stems from one problem with a few vans and the Fiat base remains the best by a mile. It is unfortunate if you have one of these but the 2.3, where the problem is, are being fixed. I have always agreed Fiat could have handled this better but they are not the first to react like this and will not be the last. Toyota recently refused to accept they had cars with sticking throttles and no brakes until a few crashed in the USA.

Moyne, Nick of Euroserve suggest you read back a few posts on this thread rather than just rant to find out.

[rupert123]

Moyne, just read your long post again and am even more mystified. In your second sentence you state dealer has gone bust, you then go on to say he completed the paper work and keeps all records, that Fiat did not write to dealer about call backs, how would they do this if they were no longer in business. You also say the dealer reads this thread and is one of largest in the UK, are we talking two dealers here? You also say 10 days after purchase you visited seller who contacted Dethleff who contacted Fiat Turin who then contacted local dealer. No wonder there in confusion, me thinks their is a lot you are not saying.

[moyne]

rupert123 - 2010-02-16 10:54 AM

 

Moyne, just read your long post again and am even more mystified. In your second sentence you state dealer has gone bust, you then go on to say he completed the paper work and keeps all records, that Fiat did not write to dealer about call backs, how would they do this if they were no longer in business. You also say the dealer reads this thread and is one of largest in the UK, are we talking two dealers here? You also say 10 days after purchase you visited seller who contacted Dethleff who contacted Fiat Turin who then contacted local dealer. No wonder there in confusion, me thinks their is a lot you are not saying.

 

Ok Let me explain. I bought motohome from a Dethleff dealer. He is still very much in business.

 

When I discovered the problem I went to the motorhome dealer from whom I purchased the vehicle. He in turn contacted Detheleff who manufactured the motrohome using a Fiat chassis. Dethleff suggested contacting Fiat which he did. He also contacted Fiat Ireland by phone as one would think to be proper. They suggested contacting the local Fiat commercial agent. (this agent is now gone).

 

Dethleff at this time also conatced Fiat in Turin to see if there were any issues with any and all Fiat vehicles. The response to this was a resounding NO ! there were no complaints and no issues. Dethleff even emailed me to tell me that Fiat had received no complaints. ( year 2008) This is peculiar as at that time which was two years ago the phones were hopping with people complaining about reverse vibration.

 

So that I don't feel alone several owners of 3 litre vehicles have sent me correcspondence in relation to their experinces and contacts with Fiat not one has had their problem fixed. The agent in Donegal who sold me my Dethleff has not had I believe a single vehicle in over two years recalled by Fiat in either 2.3 litre or 3 litre recalled to fix the problem. He has however had to put in clutches and gearboxes and argue on behalf of customers with Fiat with litttle luck. Much of their responce when vehicles have failed on the road that the failure is down to driver error and poor driveing skills. Not a single word of reverse judder repair.

 

I was also infomed that the reverse vibration was due to my inability to drive properly. So as for there being allot that I am not saying there is indeed and most of it would be language that would incurr the wrath of the provider of this site.

 

Whether or not Toyota or others gets it wrong is of little concern to me and my interest is on one objective and that is to get rid of this vehicle. The unfortunate part is that I have been left with one alternative and that is to issue proceedings against the seller who will in turn no doubt bring Fiat and Dethleff into these actions.

 

I have learned a lesson and that is if one buys a vehicle one has rights and these rights are protected and let no one tell you otherwise.

 

The full manuscript and historical data will be made fully available to anyone who wishes once my case has been brought before the High Court

I would hope that my experience will be a lesson to other motor companies in the training of staff because Fiat obviously have zero procedures otherwise I would not be waisting time writing in this forum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

I whole heartedly wish you every success Gerard in your fight with Fiat and do please keep us all informed to help others avoid the same dreadful cock ups.

 

It is high time that someone had the balls to take this awful company to task and I salute you Sir for so doing.

 

I'm just bloody glad that I don't have one of these dreadful machines - and never will - I came close but saw the Forum just in time.

 

Maybe some of your similarly affected contacts might help with the legal bills in order to create a legal precedent that Fiat might find hard to shy away from in future cases.

 

Hopefully they will settle out of court and that would be good for you but it would be a shame not to have your say in court and not to have Fiat damned forever by a decision against them - they would of course then appeal and so the process would rumble on until one or other got fed up, died or ran out of money.

 

No bets who that is most likely to happen to first which makes the Fiat attitude all the more despicable.

 

Anyway - good luck - rant over!

[moyne]

Tracker - 2010-02-16 2:09 PM

 

I whole heartedly wish you every success Gerard in your fight with Fiat and do please keep us all informed to help others avoid the same dreadful cock ups.

 

If there is one thing life that I have learned in my life and that is one can win the battle and loose the fight.

 

I shall take on this task with one thing in mind and that is in the truth.

 

Remember the struggle that the developer of the intermittent wiper had with Ford Motor Company stealing his patent he was right and the might endeavoured to devour his life. He stood upright with the conviction that might is not right and after 15 years won his battle.

 

So being the Grandson of a Ford Motor Company employee who took on the Fords and was one of the founders of the Automile Workers Union of America I have some unerstanding what can sometimes be required of us in facing an adversary who would consider that status and might wins !

 

 

 

 

[gadjo]

I might be sticking me neck out but here goes!!!

 

I have been keeping a breast of this topic from a far mainly because I don’t think I have had anything to contribute (might still not) and sometimes it seems like any thing positive about this seems to be frowned on and people have been decried in the past for airing that type of view!!!!

 

But I just thought I would share my experience just case there is anyone out there who is thinking this is the end of the world and the process is fraught with pit falls!!!

 

I bought an Autotrail on a fiat ( 2.3 maxi heavy if that makes any difference) nearly two years ago now and knew none of this before I bought it, ok some might say I didn’t do enough research but we took nearly a year to decide that this one was the right one for us and we liked it and still do.

 

When I got it, it drove like a dream didn’t have the judder problem at first but then I had a few occasions in France about 4 months after getting it when I had problems just reversing onto levelling blocks with the clutch burning etc so I started the process of getting the mods done. Had the 1st one done ie the mountings no better so went for the full gear box mod.

 

In my dealings with Fiat they have always been courteous, obliging and friendly and have contacted me to check the progress. I have no complaints at all about the way it has been handled. The local Fiat garage has been very good and have/will provide me with confirmation on their letter headed paper the mods have been done so that will help as evidence for the future come trade in time.

 

I have just heard from the garage that the vans ready and good to go so hopefully that will draw a line under the ‘judder gate’ affair for me!!

 

I am now going to carry on using the van for the purpose it was intended and enjoy it because it is a nice van, we like it and it has taken us to places we have never been to or seen before and hopefully will continue to do so, which after all is what it’s all about.

 

Alright not every one has had a good experience and I feel for those people it must be sole destroying, but I don’t think this is the case with everyone certainly not my experience anyway.

 

Thanks have to go to Andy for his initial fight in this because I believe that if he had not been so persistent it might have been a different story.

 

cheers

[moyne]

I'm supper glad that at leats one person has had a good experience and I'm sure this is down to having a good local agent.

 

I was speaking to my motrohome supplier this afternoon about the issue of Fiat nnot having a record of when my vehcile was bought (or so they say) he has assured me that this has happened on many occasions. He has had to fax, email and even after doing this post copies to Fiat in Dublin to eventually get motorhomes on Fiat's system and even after this three time replication he still has been unsuccesfull to get my vehicle registered.

 

He also informs me that he has notified Fiat details of 150 + vehicles requiring modifications relating to the Judder problem and none to date have been called in as part of a recall or have any of the owners been offered a solution to the problem. So that is only the beginning there are many owners out there just suffering the difficulty or are unaware that a problem may exist that is until the clutch fails or they try to sell or trade !

 

This figure does not include any of the 3 Litre vehicles.

 

So NI Turcks in Belfast may be busy yet doing mods to several hundered vehicles. That is if Fiat ever get around to contacting any of the owners.

 

 

 

 

[rupert123]

I have no idea if N.I. has a differant Fiat setup to rest of the UK but Moynes experience is certainly not reflected in England and Wales. From the posts on here and MHF all cases seem to be dealt with promptly now and have follow up calls to check on results. I have now had two new Fiat based M/H's and both were registered with Fiat on the correct dates and backup letters came from Fiat to confirm this. I am fully aware that Fiat did not handle this well at first and it took a lot of fighting by Andy and others to get the problems fixed.

[moyne]

rupert123 - 2010-02-17 9:47 AM

 

I have no idea if N.I. has a differant Fiat setup to rest of the UK but Moynes experience is certainly not reflected in England and Wales. From the posts on here and MHF all cases seem to be dealt with promptly now and have follow up calls to check on results. I have now had two new Fiat based M/H's and both were registered with Fiat on the correct dates and backup letters came from Fiat to confirm this. I am fully aware that Fiat did not handle this well at first and it took a lot of fighting by Andy and others to get the problems fixed.

 

I have to point out that I do not live in the UK but in Donegal in the ROI Fiat made an issue re: the garage selected to do the inspection of the fault.

They said that a long lift would be required so I would be required to drive it to Wilsons of Rathkenny in Belfast this was done and the vehicle was left with them for several days it was at this point Fiat in Turin told Wilsons not to inspect the vehicle as Fiat vehicles did not have a problem.

 

The next visit was to take the vehicle to N.I. Trucks as they also had a lift suitable to lift my 9m vehicle. The engineer representing Fiat came to NI Trucks and took it for a test drive around their yard.

 

On neither occasion was the vehicle put on a lift and on both occasions Fiat refused to send a representative to the motorhome suppliers premises in Donegal despite him having a fully fitted garage and a lift capable of lifting a 10meter + motorhome. So I drove the 90 miles both ways.

 

The correspondence that I have from owners in the UK mainland and Northern Ireland does not reflect Fiat doing the right thing and sorting their motorhomes out in a diligant manner in fact the opposite is the case. It would appear Fiat have yet to do a recall or admit that the Fait Ducatto vehicles can not reverse without doing damage over time.

 

 

 

 

 

[moyne]

Fiat have after two years it appears finally udated their records to suggest that my vehicle is under warranty.

 

I am still bemused that no one in Fiat did not pick up on the fact that the year of registration is 2008 it actually says so on the registration plate, but they were adament that it was 2007. Is Italy a full year behind Ireland ?

 

Funny old world we live in, sometimes it takes a little more than the obvious to state the obvious !

My vehicle still judders violently in reverse and is virtually unuseable as it is degrading in condition visibly due to damage caused by this resonance.

 

I don't take it out much and when we do it is only for one day trips which we could have bought a mini van for.

 

 

[Rayjsj]

Gerard, am i right in thinking that yours is a 3 litre with a manual gearbox ? and have you contacted Andy with your details (via private message) as i understand he has a list of unresolved cases like yours.

I think it is a disgrace that a company like Fiat are continuing to ignore customers whose VERY expensive vehicles are 'Unfit for Purpose'.

'Let The Buyer Beware' has never been more true, even in these days when 'Consumer protection' is meant to be written into law. Ray