Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[moyne]

I have indeed contacted Andy and he has been very helpful. He has given my details of many poor gombeens like myself who unfortunately bought a Fiat vehicle. I have given our Legal team many details of the stories of individuals who like myself have been ignored in the hope that we will just dwindle away.

 

It's an ongoing saga with only one end. So if someone out there wants a 3 litre motorhome I will give you the details of mine so you can aviod it like the plague when you decide to buy.

 

There have been comments in this thread which could be interpretated in a manner which makes out that Fiat are great, wonderful and there is nothing wrong with the vehicles. I wonder would those with this opinion take a chance and buy my vehicle off me, I can make it available !

 

If Fiat Motorcompany treat a single client badly then they must bow their heads it does not matter how good many feel. If there is a substantial minority who are being treated with contempt this proves that the company is negligent. I believe that I am one of this minority and the experience so far would make any reasonable man come to the same opinion.

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2010-02-18 11:28 AM Gerard, am i right in thinking that yours is a 3 litre with a manual gearbox ? and have you contacted Andy with your details (via private message) as i understand he has a list of unresolved cases like yours. I think it is a disgrace that a company like Fiat are continuing to ignore customers whose VERY expensive vehicles are 'Unfit for Purpose'. 'Let The Buyer Beware' has never been more true, even in these days when 'Consumer protection' is meant to be written into law. Ray

It ain't the law that is at fault, there's tons of that!  It is the means to obtain redress, when the law is not followed, that fails.  Because these are all civil, and not criminal, misdemeanours, one has to turn to the county courts (or some form of alternative dispute resolution), and it is here that the problems for ordinary folk start.

Please don't anyone shout small claims: the cost limit is £5,000, and the court will be liable to re-allocate the dispute out of the small claims track if the dispute turns out to be worth more.  With motorhomes, that is a considerable risk.

[Rayjsj]

Brian,

My thought turned to the 'Golden lady' who stands on the top of a 'Law court' somwhere in London, she has on a 'Blindfold' as well as holding the 'Scales of justice' I always believed that the reason she was blindfolded was so that she was not influenced by the size/power/nasty looks/ waving of money of the people in front of her seeking justice ???

very naive of me of course, but what chance do we have against a multi-national company like Fiat who refuses to admit to a problem, the owners of failing 3litre manual Fiats deserve justice. Ray

[moyne]

Brian Kirby - 2010-02-18 11:58 AM

Rayjsj - 2010-02-18 11:28 AM Gerard, am i right in thinking that yours is a 3 litre with a manual gearbox ? and have you contacted Andy with your details (via private message) as i understand he has a list of unresolved cases like yours. I think it is a disgrace that a company like Fiat are continuing to ignore customers whose VERY expensive vehicles are 'Unfit for Purpose'. 'Let The Buyer Beware' has never been more true, even in these days when 'Consumer protection' is meant to be written into law. Ray

It ain't the law that is at fault, there's tons of that!  It is the means to obtain redress, when the law is not followed, that fails.  Because these are all civil, and not criminal, misdemeanours, one has to turn to the county courts (or some form of alternative dispute resolution), and it is here that the problems for ordinary folk start.

Please don't anyone shout small claims: the cost limit is £5,000, and the court will be liable to re-allocate the dispute out of the small claims track if the dispute turns out to be worth more.  With motorhomes, that is a considerable risk.

In the case of Ireland the claimant in my case MOI ! must look for redress in the High Court which means having senior council as representative.This is a daunting task, however which would one like best an 85k motorhome parked at ones gable unusable, or a 10k bill well I know which I have chosen !

[moyne]

Rayjsj - 2010-02-18 12:22 PM

 

Brian,

My thought turned to the 'Golden lady' who stands on the top of a 'Law court' somwhere in London, she has on a 'Blindfold' as well as holding the 'Scales of justice' I always believed that the reason she was blindfolded was so that she was not influenced by the size/power/nasty looks/ waving of money of the people in front of her seeking justice ???

very naive of me of course, but what chance do we have against a multi-national company like Fiat who refuses to admit to a problem, the owners of failing 3litre manual Fiats deserve justice. Ray

 

Of course justice is always weighed on the side of what can you afford to loose. So being stubborn and somewhat keen I am not intimidated by anyone not even a few suits from Turin.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2010-02-18 12:22 PM Brian, My thought turned to the 'Golden lady' who stands on the top of a 'Law court' somwhere in London, she has on a 'Blindfold' as well as holding the 'Scales of justice' I always believed that the reason she was blindfolded was so that she was not influenced by the size/power/nasty looks/ waving of money of the people in front of her seeking justice ??? very naive of me of course, but what chance do we have against a multi-national company like Fiat who refuses to admit to a problem, the owners of failing 3litre manual Fiats deserve justice. Ray

Unless you have an absolute stack of cash you are prepared to lose, almost no chance.

First, you have no contract at all with Fiat, so the only grounds on which you could sue them would be a claimed failure to comply with the terms of their guarantee. 

Two things then arise.  A, the right to sue is under the Sale and Supply of goods to Consumers Regulations, which so far as I am aware has not yet been used in this way.  B, a guarantee guarantees what it says it guarantees, no more, no less.  To demonstrate failure on the part of Fiat, you would have to find the bit of the guarantee they had failed to comply with.  I wish you luck in finding the relevant clause!

Second, therefore, you case would have to be brought against the supplying dealer.  The prospect, if the dealer could not cure the fault, would ultimately be that the motorhome was unfit for purpose, and the dealer would have to return your money.  However, if the dealer thought you posed him a real threat, he would almost certainly enjoin the motorhome manufacturer in his defence, and the manufacturer would in turn be liable to enjoin Fiat.  You would then have to prove that the inability to reverse the vehicle without severe judder was such an impediment that is rendered the motorhome unusable within a reasonable understanding of that word. 

This is a game for a Branson who, instead of suing, could afford to buy the dealership, instruct the manager replace the motorhome with one he liked, and then put the firm up for sale again!  It is not a game for retirees on pensions, something that I would suggest has not gone un-noticed in certain quarters!!  :-(

[moyne]

As I do not wish to go into the advice my brief has given much of what you say is correct and as I siad my interest in Fiat is only in the fact that they were the manufacturer and that it may prevent someone find themselves in my position.

 

This forum is not the place that I shall sekk my justice and I do appreciate that IRish law whilst does come from the same background in EU legislation there are a few precident cases which have been fought on the same grounds which I am pursuing. The clients won and were compensated although the cases did not make the press I wonder why.

 

I know I will need luck but time is something we will always have plenty of and patience !

 

 

 

[weldted]

I will be at the NEC this Tuesday, and will visit the Fiat stand around midday if anyone is about, to ask some questions about my 2008 3 litre that judders and is on its third clutch!! if anyone is about on that day??

[Mike88]

I asked the people at the Fiat stand at the NEC last October about 3 litre judder. They said they had not heard of a case of a 3 litre juddering and only one or two isolated cases of the 2.3 juddering.

 

Clearly they were not telling the truth as they already had a fix planned for the 2.3 litre and of course nothing for the 3 litre version. 3 litre owners have been deserted it seems.

 

Have you tried posting on MHF? There is a thread going on there at the moment on this subject.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

moyne - 2010-02-18 4:26 PM As I do not wish to go into the advice my brief has given much of what you say is correct and as I siad my interest in Fiat is only in the fact that they were the manufacturer and that it may prevent someone find themselves in my position. This forum is not the place that I shall sekk my justice and I do appreciate that IRish law whilst does come from the same background in EU legislation there are a few precident cases which have been fought on the same grounds which I am pursuing. The clients won and were compensated although the cases did not make the press I wonder why. I know I will need luck but time is something we will always have plenty of and patience !

In case of misunderstanding, Gerard, my comments were not being addressed to you: I appreciate you will not wish to comment in detail, and that your proceedings will be subject to Irish law.  Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know how you fare in due course.  In the meantime, good luck!

[Mel B]

Try not to smash your computer when your read this:

 

Best motorhome base vehicle 2010

 

What a load of c*bblers!!!!!

[silverback]

bet there is a few trashed puters when they read that (!) i nearly trashed mine, and my gearbox is a bag of spanners from 2001...... but its my bag of spanners (lol)

[rupert123]

Mel B - 2010-02-18 8:24 PM

 

Try not to smash your computer when your read this:

 

Best motorhome base vehicle 2010

 

What a load of c*bblers!!!!!

 

Would point out they are talking about the auto so this is probably correct.

[moyne]

If one puts aside our problems and our difficulties and the assertion that the the comfortmatic makes for a good ride ! ( no pun intended)

Fiat as a company take customer care to a new level. Now one must not be mistaken when I use the word level as their level is not in keeping with anyone's comprehension of the word.

 

Customer care and of course committment to product quality neither of wish the bods in Turin have a notion of. So if anyone is at any stand anywhere give them my name and or use my name "Go for it" My vehicle shakes and burns the clutch and I have documentation to prove it. I even have correspondence from Fiat agents who say the damn thing shakes. So make sure they know and keep the ball rolling otherwise this thread will be consumed by other eggits like me.

 

They cannot deny the obvious and cannot be allowed to deny the obvious ! When is the show maybe I could go and give them what for ! Now that would be an interesting show.

[moyne]

Maybe we could get T- Shirts printed with a logo.

 

"I own a burner" or "my motorhome shakes"

 

Go Forward with Fiat as reverse will vibrate your mind.

 

Any suggestions

[mike 202]

T - shirts have been suggested before for wearing at the NEC etc, but nothing has become of it. Every time it got near to the NEC Fiat seemed to come up with promises to correct the problems effecting its product.

 

I had a new Fiat based product and only kept it for a few months, the change to another motorhome even with a helpfull dealer cost me £4500.

 

So I am still pi**ed of with Fiat, I was told just increase the revs to 1300rpm when trying to reverse.

 

SO if you get any T-Shirts printed I will happily by one and wear it at shows and general Camping. PM me if you go ahead.

 

Regards Mike

[david lloyd]

rupert123 - 2010-02-18 10:37 PM

 

Mel B - 2010-02-18 8:24 PM

 

Try not to smash your computer when your read this:

 

Best motorhome base vehicle 2010

 

What a load of c*bblers!!!!!

 

 

Would point out they are talking about the auto so this is probably correct.

 

Whereas I have to agree with much of what has been said about the 160/Comfortmatic pairing, the relevent passage is probably:

 

"Yes, the fact that you can only order Comfort-Matic with the big engine makes it a pricey addition to smaller, cheaper motorhomes, but the fact that even medium-wheelbase van conversions are being bought with Comfort-Matic really says it all."

 

What Which have misinterpreted here is not necessarily that buyers of smaller motorhomes recognise the Comfortmatic as something desirable in itself but that it is the best (safest) bet when it comes to choosing any size/model of motorhome which may only be available on the Ducato chassis.

 

David

 

[erneboy]

Moyne, I too have a very bad judder in my 3 litre. Mine judders every time it moves off regardless of driver, technique, direction, surface or gradient.

 

I am in Northern Ireland and so deal with Fiat UK, while you I guess are dealing with Fiat Ireland.

 

I have an idea which I am hoping to try however since our remedies seem to lie with different companies maybe we cannot act together. Still exchanging details of the fault might assist both of us.

 

I will PM you, Alan.

[moyne]

erneboy - 2010-02-19 10:57 AM

 

Moyne, I too have a very bad judder in my 3 litre. Mine judders every time it moves off regardless of driver, technique, direction, surface or gradient.

 

I am in Northern Ireland and so deal with Fiat UK, while you I guess are dealing with Fiat Ireland.

 

I have an idea which I am hoping to try however since our remedies seem to lie with different companies maybe we cannot act together. Still exchanging details of the fault might assist both of us.

 

I will PM you, Alan.

 

I am in Donegal and the jurisdiction in our cases is not that important what wehave in common is the fault and thus it can be proved that the problem is inheritant in a volume of vehicles,

 

Drop me a line and I will give you documentation and suggest an excellent Engineer who will look at your vehicle and give you an independent report.

 

Fiat who no doubt read this appear to be quiet, Not a word have I heard recently from them !

 

Any suggestions on a logo for a t-Shirt I will gladly have them printed.

 

[mike 202]

If you look back over the thread then some suggestions were made. A PM (not a question on the forum) to Andy would probably help as he was, I believe, going to get some T-shirts printed.

JUDDERGATE has been mentioned.

Mike

[moyne]

Has everyone stopped posting to this thread ?

 

I would still apreciate it if anyone with a 3 litre or indeed a 2.3 Litre if you could please send me details of you experience with Fiat or even lack of experience I know they are good at not communicating.

 

This data will assist us in presenting a case to the EU and the media when this matter eventually gets the same highlight as other car manufactureres who decided to ignore the concerns of their clients.

 

 

[lennyhb]

I'm sorry I can't help your case as my experience with Fiat was excellent.

 

I have a 2.3 Phoned Fiat told them I got judder when reversing, (I didn't really just wanted the lower reverse gear) they said we have a fix for that we will get someone from commercial to give you a call. They phoned back & booked the van into a dealer of my choice a couple of weeks later job was done & Fiat followed up a few weeks later with a curtsey call to check everything was OK.

My first dealings with Fiat and they were brilliant.

[Brambles]

"(I didn't really just wanted the lower reverse gear)"

 

So is it any wonder Fiat do not take every case seriously!! *-)

[lennyhb]

A bit unfair Jon, we all know the the Fiat reverse is too high & they would probably not change it if you told them it didn't judder.

 

 

[Brambles]

lennyhb - 2010-02-24 5:10 PM

 

A bit unfair Jon, we all know the the Fiat reverse is too high & they would probably not change it if you told them it didn't judder.

 

 

A fair comment, they would do nothing and you still have worse problem of burning a clutch in reverse with the original gear ratio.