Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[Brambles]

. doube post.

[moyne]

This is kinda like getting ebola virus if you don't have it, it does not make any sense telling everyone you don't have it. What does make sense is those that have it screaming loud enogh so that someone will take the matter serious enough to develop a cure. So to be honest telling me your vehicle is wonderful ain't really going to get me a cure ! Not all Toyota cars are bad, but just enough were bad to get people possibly killed !

 

I do hope you get my drift !

[rupert123]

Moyne has it not occured to you that the reason this thread is dying, on MHF as well, is that most are now happy with their Fiats. O.K. I know their are still a few out their with problems but if yours is half as bad as you make out then I would have driven it straight back to the dealers.

[lennyhb]

moyne - 2010-02-24 10:01 PM

 

This is kinda like getting ebola virus if you don't have it, it does not make any sense telling everyone you don't have it. What does make sense is those that have it screaming loud enogh so that someone will take the matter serious enough to develop a cure. So to be honest telling me your vehicle is wonderful ain't really going to get me a cure ! Not all Toyota cars are bad, but just enough were bad to get people possibly killed !

 

I do hope you get my drift !

 

You asked for other peoples experience of their dealings with Fiat, I gave you details of my dealings with Fiat which you clearly do not want to hear so why bother asking then.

 

 

[moyne]

lennyhb - 2010-02-24 10:42 PM

 

moyne - 2010-02-24 10:01 PM

 

This is kinda like getting ebola virus if you don't have it, it does not make any sense telling everyone you don't have it. What does make sense is those that have it screaming loud enogh so that someone will take the matter serious enough to develop a cure. So to be honest telling me your vehicle is wonderful ain't really going to get me a cure ! Not all Toyota cars are bad, but just enough were bad to get people possibly killed !

 

I do hope you get my drift !

 

You asked for other peoples experience of their dealings with Fiat, I gave you details of my dealings with Fiat which you clearly do not want to hear so why bother asking then.

 

 

I don't know why I bother asking I just do. We all have opinions, but I thought this thread was about clients of Fiat who have a particular difficulty with their vehicles not about the vehicles which don't have a problem. Although I do fully respect that there are many who do not have a problem and I may be one of the minority who cannot use their vehicles.

 

Not everyone one died in the Ford Pinto affair but just enough of a minority burned to death. So do allow me the right to have been sold a crap vehicle. As for the assertion from the other respondent that If my vehicle was so bad I should have tken it back. (I Did !) that is why I currently have a court case pending. That distributor has tried without luck to get Dethleff and Fiat to sort the problem out, but Fiat say they don't have a fix and that the severe vibration and burning clutch when I try to reverse is within acceptable tolerances. Now me being intolerant of this I have endeavoured to seek a resolution it took Fiat almost two years rto accept that they should even look at the vehicle and then when I drove it 100 miles to the garage, Fiat in Turin contacted that garage a main Fiat dealer and informed them, they should not look at this vehicle as there is no problem with 3 litre vehicles so there was no requirement to investigate my case. The vehicle was returned to me having not been looked at and no resolution.

 

By the way did I hear that many are satisfied with the fix well I have as yet to hear from anyone with a 3 litre vehicle that has been fixed or am I missing someone ! Great that you have to buy a vehicle and then get it fixed. As an addendum Fiat have not recalled any vehicles or notified Fiat owners that a potential problem exists it's up to the client to contact them. Enough said me thinks.

[Rayjsj]

Certain people on this forum Have VERY Pro-Fiat Sentiments (see the Fiat or Ford Thread), Their reasoning is beyond me ! advising people that they are the Best (of these 2) by a mile, based on purely their own experience is ignoring this 'ongoing' thread with distinctly opposite opinions based on multiple and various experiences. Still i suppose that's what Forums are all about. It takes all types and opinions.

Go for a Ford/Mercedes/ Renault/Iveco/VW anything but a Sevel until they have sorted out all the defective ones they have produced so far, AND corrected the fault. (oh! sorry it isn't a fault is it ? 'Characteristic' )

Ray

[Neil Hunt]

It is a shame Moyne but in an open forum you are going to get people on the wrong side of the autism spectrum who just don't get it.

 

You and others clearly have major problems and are in a David and Goliath situation and it is just not helpful to receive a "Spam - I love it" message. Despite improved legislation the consumer is still in a completely vulnerable situation and people have put their end of working life savings into these vehicles and want some value out of them.

 

Some of those who have had a "fix" would seem to have forgotten the effort put in by individuals to bring about a change in attitude from Fiat and others. That attitude is still very deeply prevalent with dealers and manufacturers you will find if you are in the market to buy a vehicle and ask questions.

 

I have a Peugeot on order and it is with some trepidation that I await delivery, and it should not be like this.

 

Toyota (full page ad in yesterday's Guardian) have come out and stated they produce fit for purpose vehicles and if they fall below a standard they apologise and will put it right and quickly. Unfortunately the motor home market does not have the competitive choice in base vehicles that exists with cars.

 

I think it right that people should speak as they find but you also need some sensitivity as to context when you do so, and we have been here before in this vein on this thread.

 

I wish you well as I am sure do others on this and other forums because your success will help us all.

[lennyhb]

Neil Hunt - 2010-02-25 11:37 AM

 

It is a shame Moyne but in an open forum you are going to get people on the wrong side of the autism spectrum who just don't get it.

 

You and others clearly have major problems and are in a David and Goliath situation and it is just not helpful to receive a "Spam - I love it" message. Despite improved legislation the consumer is still in a completely vulnerable situation and people have put their end of working life savings into these vehicles and want some value out of them.

 

 

Sounds like you are accusing people of lying on this form because you do not want to see a balance view.

I do not appreciate being called a spammer when I have responded honestly to a member who asked for other members opinions of how they were treated by Fiat.

 

A balanced view to present can only help to point out that Fiat do not treat customers equally.

 

No ones denies there are problems with the gearing but like all forums the majority of responses will only come from people with a problem, the majority of people without a problem will not bother responding.

 

When you consider the 100's of thousands of these vehicles that have been sold the ones with problems is a very small percentage. Due to the lack of response from satisfied owners you could argue this thread is very biased against Fiat.

 

We would all like to see Fiat respond favourably to owners with problems so we can put the issue to bed, slagging off other members is not helpful.

 

 

 

 

[andy mccord]

Lenny, I presume it does occur to you that Moyne is looking for people in a similiar predicament to himself so he can gather relevant information from other sufferers, which may help him in his case against fiat.

 

I dont think hes that bothered about someone who is not having problems with there van or fiat, which is probably why the word spammer appeared, because your comment could potentially be inflammatory.

 

Andy

[Neil Hunt]

Hello Lenny,

 

I don't know how you can draw the conclusion that I have accused you of "lying". What I did suggest was you do not "get it".

 

The "spam" comment was a reference to an Eric Idle sketch, my apologies for being obscure.

 

It is all about context and I have no reason to believe other than what you have described and your satisfaction with FIAT. However, offering your response on this particular thread sounds a bit "I'm alright Jack".

 

The thread is not about being fair to FIAT but supporting members having great difficulty getting a fair deal. Some of whom stuck their necks out for a long time and as consequence helped you get your fair deal with your reverse gear.

[euroserv]

Have certain people lost the plot around here? I thought this issue of 'balanced views' had been put to bed ages ago!

 

The title of the thread is "Transmission Defect" not "I am happy with my van, and that is all that matters"

 

The fact of the matter is that anyone who reads this thread needs to be aware that there is a potential problem with some of the Sevel based campers out there whether they are new or used. Information is shared here regarding the progress of repairs to member's vehicles and that is helpful and comforting to those members that are affected.

 

There is absolutely no point in writing here to give a 'balanced view' if you don't have a problem or have had yours fixed satisfactorily. It undermines the remaining and new forum members that need help and will underestimate the potential nightmare that buyers of affected vehicles will possibly face if they enter into the purchase without the correct information available to them.

 

This is where Andy Stothert started his excellent work to put pressure on the manufacturers to find a cure and share experiences and he has been very successful. Stop undermining it and let the people that have something to say, say it.

 

For the record: Some 3.0 manual transmission vans are affected by the problem and as yet there have been no fixes or modifications to later vehicles.

 

There have been modifications made to some 2.3 vans and since April 2009 new vans have been fitted with modified gear ratio's but the jury is out on whether that really is the end of it.

 

There are a good number of vans out there that have not been modified either because the owners did not see the problem as severe enough to worry about, were not aware of forums like this or just bailed out and got something else instead. Purchasers of used vehicles need to be aware of the potential problems especially as the vehicle may now be out of warranty and the manufacturer will be even less interested in sorting them out.

 

Nick

[Uncle Bulgaria]

I am about to test drive a new 3 litre manual. A satisfactory test drive is a condition of purchase. It's in Lincolnshire, which is not over-blessed with hills, and I don't think the dealer will stretch to a test drive to the Lake District for some real hills! Can forum members advise me of the best way to try and invoke any unsatisfactory behaviour (characteristic?) whilst reversing?

 

I understand that the key is that there should be a load on the transmission. Is there guidance on the mnimum slope needed? Would trying to reverse up onto leveling blocks be a sufficient test (repeated several times)? Would several attempts at reversing with the handbrake applied progressively more and more do? Is any member either local to, or sufficiently knowledgeable, about Lincoln and its surroundings to know of a suitable layby on a hill that might serve as a test site?

 

As always, I greatly value members input.

 

Richard.

[colin]

Uncle Bulgaria - 2010-02-25 2:58 PM

 

I am about to test drive a new 3 litre manual.

 

I've never driven a 3l, but the 2.2s I've driven (5 and 6 speed) have all reversed on tarmac with no judder dispite the best hills Wales and England can provide. It's once they get on grass slopes I have had the judder, but at this time of year maybe not a good idea or you may end up stuck, others may have better idea about leveling blocks, I've not used those either.

[PSHORT]

Uncle Bulgaria - 2010-02-25 2:58 PM

 

I am about to test drive a new 3 litre manual. A satisfactory test drive is a condition of purchase. It's in Lincolnshire, which is not over-blessed with hills, and I don't think the dealer will stretch to a test drive to the Lake District for some real hills! Can forum members advise me of the best way to try and invoke any unsatisfactory behaviour (characteristic?) whilst reversing?

 

I understand that the key is that there should be a load on the transmission. Is there guidance on the mnimum slope needed? Would trying to reverse up onto leveling blocks be a sufficient test (repeated several times)? Would several attempts at reversing with the handbrake applied progressively more and more do? Is any member either local to, or sufficiently knowledgeable, about Lincoln and its surroundings to know of a suitable layby on a hill that might serve as a test site?

 

As always, I greatly value members input.

 

Richard.

 

My 3litre panel van conversion judders in reverse on the flat and the clutch smokes in a tight 3 point turn. Never had the bottle to test on s steep hill

[moyne]

For the guy looking to buy a Fiat can I put it this way would you take the risk and buy mine. ? I certainly would not. If you have a problem as I have you will end up getting on the Fiat merry go round which is a "we don't stop ride".

 

I am not unique in my case nor will I be the last. As I have said before just because you may be a minority or maybe you are not ,your vehicle becomes part of the list of vehicles that become of little worth because who will take the risk of buying a crap one like mine.

 

Mine smokes and shakes violently in reverse and is not unique ! An independent engineer says it has a severe problem which will ultimately in due course lead to the body seals and joints failing due to severe resonance. This damage is quite visible at the moment. So would I advise anyone to take the risk and buy a Fiat.

 

Kinda like asking will this bungie cord be short enough. It's your neck go ahead and jump !

 

 

 

 

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi,

 

To uncle bulgarisa, I could suggest that you try to reverse it up Steep St in Lincoln, you know , the one that goes from the town up to the castle. Problem is the street is a bit narrow so you might not be able to squeeze up it even if reverse gear wasnt a problem

From what I recall, I think the gradient approaches 45degrees, It certainly strained the leg muscles when I tried it.

 

I tried the reversing on to levelling block with handbrake partially applied and fully loaded, but decided in spite of Peugeot's so called fix (on 2.2 litre Stargazer), I decided that the "torque vibration" was too much to risk.

 

I await my proposed Austrian trip with trepidation.

 

tonyg3nwl

[roger20]

As usual Nick (Euroserv) has summarised this perfectly.

 

I have already been shot down by one poster for suggesting that testing these vans in reverse requires not level ground, or a slight slope but something like 1in5/1in7 - the point Andy S has been making from the very outset.

 

My 2.3l AutoTrail Tracker has had the various fixes and although its much better its by no means perfect. However I can and will live with it now even though reverse is still 8% higher than first which is just too high for controlled reversing.

 

Mine is a relatively light van and it continues to surprise me that manufacturers are still producing much heavier vans with a 2.3 based transmission system so its hardly surprising that such vans will exhibit poor reversing symptoms.

 

Whilst I would not describe myself as completely satisfied (I will reserve judgement until my van is 6/7 years old) it does not help people like Moyne for others to say how good Fiat or their vehicle is. Fiat were dragged into this reluctantly only by the efforts of Andy and all those other posters who complained about the very poor initial design of the transmission.

 

I know that in the back of my mind that even "fixed", my transmission and in particular the clutch could well fail in the unfortunate event of having to slip the clutch too much in reverse because the ratio is still to high - its all a question now of trying to put it into some perspective.

 

All those 3 litre owners who are still suffering from Fiat's denial that any problem exists need all the support we can give them.

[roger20]

Double post!

[moyne]

My friends the longer Fiat does nothing this actually assists my case as often silence can be taken as no defence of the obvious. So may I suggest that the next path is FAcebook twitter and those other Social network sites. He who gets the high ground often gets to shout the furthest.

 

I should have been a poet but my motorhome will not take to where all good poets go.

 

[mike 202]

We went to the NEC yesterday and just happened to mention Juddergate and was told that there may have been a small problem with some vehicles, BUT that was due to driver error.

All of the Vans/Motorhomes looked pretty, but lots of people just took the salesmans word and slick patter as gospel.

 

A bit like the guy in the water when he said " The water is lovely and warm" - So in you jump only to find that it is freezing and it is too late to REVERSE your decision to jump. (yes pun intended).

 

Good luck Moyne, following your postings with great interest.......

 

Mike

[AndyStothert]

What amazes me now, more than ever, is that there are still some people out there who think that it is a matter of luck as to whether you get a defective 2. 3 litre 6 speed Ducato or not.

Fiat and Peugeot have now spent a huge amount of money carrying out gearbox remedial work to thousands of 6 speed Boxers and Ducatos in order to fit a lower ratio reverse gear. Not a recall, but on the basis of whether the owner realises that there is a potentially serious fault.

 

The latest versions have that lower ratio reverse gear. Some still think it isn't low enough, but I think they have made other small changes (removal of the reverse synchro ring) to stop the vibration (not the juddering) from causing damage when the engine speed isn't quite high enough to provide enough power for smooth progress backwards.

 

Now do some of you really think that any of these unmodified vehicles are not just as much in need of that lower ratio reverse gear as the ones which have been done? Really, is there anyone?

 

If so then you haven't really been absorbing the technical aspects of this, and it's the technical aspects which matter - not opinions based on limited personal use or blind faith in your own buying wisdom.

These are mass produced modern vehicles made to very precise tolerances, and if a single one of them requires a lower ratio reverse gear to function correctly, never mind thousands, then every last one of them does.

There is no luck involved - every single 2.3 litre Ducato made before the modified box was put into the production line carries the risk of sudden gearbox damage in steep places, or of early clutch failure if the use is regularly in steep or awkward places.

The 3 litre model is different - thye still have an excessively tall reverse gear, but the box doesn't seem to break quite so readily, and it has more torque lower down in the range, so the torque issues and juddering aren't quite so serious.

But alas the 3 litre has a particular design of DMF which overheats all too quickly if the clutch is slipped for even a short time. which in extreme circumstaces, it has to be. This overheats the flywheel, wjhich in turn then overheats the clutch plate, and either wears it prematurely, or leads to it warping either the flywheel or clutch. The result is that the 'juddering' on clutch take-up gets worse.

The there is the weight issue - the bigger and heavier they are the worse it gets - the laws of physics dictate these things - but did Fiat consider the laws of physics?

No, our 3.3 ton 8 foot high van has the same ratios and clutches as the 10 foot tall 4.5 ton version, and although ours is now (thankfully) marginal, and usable (carefully) what will the really big ones be like long term?

Luck? Nope, its all a very predictable cock-up, and they are all at risk.

[Brian Kirby]

Or there is the alternative possibility, that the vans are not really made in a modern, computer managed, production facility, from precisely machined and matched parts assembled to fine tolerances.  This possibility would require that they are actually assembled in someone's garden shed, hidden up in the hills above Turin, from parts salvaged from the factory parts bin, on an as and when available basis.  That scenario would easily explain why some might judder while others don't.  Poor fit and assembly, of poorly manufactured parts, selected at random from what could be found on the day.  However, it sure doesn't reflect how Fiat depicts their production process!  I wonder which picture might more accurately reflect the reality?

[Brian Kirby]

Oooops!

[rupert123]

Although I, along with others, have tried to put a balanced view, pro Fiat if you like, I agree with Andy on this. They must all have the same inherent problem, however I do not accept the hysteria of the 'would not buy Fiat at any price' brigade, most of whom have never had an X250. As I have said in the past I did change my own original order from a 2.3 to a 2.2 ltr so at that point was not willing to take the chance. In the last year things have changed and would I buy a new 2.3 Fiat now yes I would knowing I would get the modified box coupled to the best base vehicle around. On a practical note I was at the NEC on Thursday to have a good look around at the new vans and Fiats market share would appear to be growing. It has got to the point where if you wish to order a new van not based on a Fiat your choice is so small I would not bother. All I saw was a couple of Mercedes and a handfull of Fords mostly used on makes like Hobby which now look so dated they should fit thatched roofs. The only others a few specialist,s selling small VW based vans. Having said all that totally agree if you have a 2.3 get the gearbox done now.

[rupert123]

Sorry treble post.