Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[Keith T]

rupert123 - 2010-02-26 5:50 PM

 

Although I, along with others, have tried to put a balanced view, pro Fiat if you like, I agree with Andy on this. They must all have the same inherent problem, however I do not accept the hysteria of the 'would not buy Fiat at any price' brigade, most of whom have never had an X250. As I have said in the past I did change my own original order from a 2.3 to a 2.2 ltr so at that point was not willing to take the chance. In the last year things have changed and would I buy a new 2.3 Fiat now yes I would knowing I would get the modified box coupled to the best base vehicle around. On a practical note I was at the NEC on Thursday to have a good look around at the new vans and Fiats market share would appear to be growing. It has got to the point where if you wish to order a new van not based on a Fiat your choice is so small I would not bother. All I saw was a couple of Mercedes and a handfull of Fords mostly used on makes like Hobby which now look so dated they should fit thatched roofs. The only others a few specialist,s selling small VW based vans. Having said all that totally agree if you have a 2.3 get the gearbox done now.

 

I have to agree with these comments, both is respect of what was available at Birmingham, and also the Fiat situation.

Speaking with dealers, the view seems to be pretty universally that most have had some customers who have had the judder problems, but that the new vehicles, built after sometime lastr year are free of this.

On a personal base, we certianly had this on out 07 Burstner 2.3 Fiat, and the initial fix only made it worse. The 2nd part of the work was done last October, and so far have ahd no recurrence, and reversing now seems on a par with the previous Fiats 2.8.

I also would suggest that whilst this topic was raised initially tohighlight the lack of any respsonse from Fiat, it's also fair - and I would feel, helpful -to expect posts from those who have had the work done - satisfactory or otherwise.

[jhorsf]

AndyStothert - 2010-02-26 3:21 PM

 

What amazes me now, more than ever, is that there are still some people out there who think that it is a matter of luck as to whether you get a defective 2. 3 litre 6 speed Ducato or not.

Fiat and Peugeot have now spent a huge amount of money carrying out gearbox remedial work to thousands of 6 speed Boxers and Ducatos in order to fit a lower ratio reverse gear. Not a recall, but on the basis of whether the owner realises that there is a potentially serious fault.

 

The latest versions have that lower ratio reverse gear. Some still think it isn't low enough, but I think they have made other small changes (removal of the reverse synchro ring) to stop the vibration (not the juddering) from causing damage when the engine speed isn't quite high enough to provide enough power for smooth progress backwards.

 

Now do some of you really think that any of these unmodified vehicles are not just as much in need of that lower ratio reverse gear as the ones which have been done? Really, is there anyone?

 

If so then you haven't really been absorbing the technical aspects of this, and it's the technical aspects which matter - not opinions based on limited personal use or blind faith in your own buying wisdom.

These are mass produced modern vehicles made to very precise tolerances, and if a single one of them requires a lower ratio reverse gear to function correctly, never mind thousands, then every last one of them does.

There is no luck involved - every single 2.3 litre Ducato made before the modified box was put into the production line carries the risk of sudden gearbox damage in steep places, or of early clutch failure if the use is regularly in steep or awkward places.

The 3 litre model is different - thye still have an excessively tall reverse gear, but the box doesn't seem to break quite so readily, and it has more torque lower down in the range, so the torque issues and juddering aren't quite so serious.

But alas the 3 litre has a particular design of DMF which overheats all too quickly if the clutch is slipped for even a short time. which in extreme circumstaces, it has to be. This overheats the flywheel, wjhich in turn then overheats the clutch plate, and either wears it prematurely, or leads to it warping either the flywheel or clutch. The result is that the 'juddering' on clutch take-up gets worse.

The there is the weight issue - the bigger and heavier they are the worse it gets - the laws of physics dictate these things - but did Fiat consider the laws of physics?

No, our 3.3 ton 8 foot high van has the same ratios and clutches as the 10 foot tall 4.5 ton version, and although ours is now (thankfully) marginal, and usable (carefully) what will the really big ones be like long term?

Luck? Nope, its all a very predictable cock-up, and they are all at risk.

 

 

 

Andy are you and Rachel gagged as to what you say in your MMM reports about the Fiat problems as it seems the press have played a big part in covering up things and are more interested in advertising revenue than the interests of the readers

[tp002c784tp002c784tp]

When the x250 was born I was in the market for a new vehicle, then I started hearing and reading about the leaking windscreen scuttle, I could not beleive that a manufacturer could produce a vehicle with the same fault as there previous model ( Ducato 15 ) .

 

When inquiring to dealers about these water troubles I was told by all of them that the had not heard of this fault, even when I asked them to lift the bonnet on the new x250 on the forcourt and pointing to all the water around the injectors some still did not beleive there was a problem.

 

I ended up by buying a new but previous model Ducato 15 2.8, because I was so discussted at the disonesty of these salesmen who wanted to sell you a vehicle at any cost.

 

I am over the moon with my Fiat Ducato 15, have had know trouble at all, even though I here the x250 is a delight to driveI still enjoy driven my Fiat.

 

After all the troubles of the x250 gearbox I now thank god for it's leaking scuttle as I may have been in the same boat as many x250 motorhome owners.

 

Terry

[moyne]

I really think Rupert13 comments make allot of sense especially when you consider he doesn't have a problem. My van sits and two years later it has not been fixed or an offer to try and fix it (I am not alone) Fiat knows I have a problem they wrote to me to tell me it vibrates but of course the burning smell when it reverses, well that's is acceptable according to Fiat when you consider your van is 4.5 tonnes unladen. Oh dear silly me was I to know this would be an issue.

 

So all of you heads out there that don't have a problemm why the hell are you sitttng on yer ass writing on a forum that is supposed to be about those that have a s**t van which does not conform to an expectation.

 

Oh yes the NEC is full of no other choice well that makes me feel good. So if you make sure they have no choice and a percentage get crap vehicles what Fiat can do is ignore them, as guys like Rupert who get the good ones will be happy and all will be rosey in the garden.

 

Well, as far as I'm concerned this is one garden which is going to get a good ploughing ! and like all the other poor sods who bought a crap vehicle. I will not be idle in nor wanting in my getting justice.

 

I wonder if Rupert had bought a Pinto which didn't get rear ended and the occupants incinerated, would the comments be "sure I got a good one and I'm ok sod the rest of you burning eggits", !

 

 

 

 

 

[rupert123]

Oh dear moyne, not only do you not feel anyone can make comments you do not happen to agree with but, unlike most, you have contributed nothing to this forum on a positive note. Now I, like others, try to be helpfull to people in other area's either technical or information wise. We do not use the forum purely as a place to moan about our own problems. While you seem to have a problem with your van, which believe it or not I sympathise with, your problem seems to go much further than anyone else I have heard of. You have made statements like 'van is shaking itself to bits and seams are splitting etc'. Now I would suggest that as well as the judder you have a van that needs the maker to look at the build quality of the caravan bit. If you come on a forum to complain or indeed make any comments someone is going to disagree, that is the nature of forums. Andy, who I have had a few disagreements with, did fight in both a public and positive way, he helped others, including me, with good information and really took the fight to Fiat. You are all talk and no action I have seen

[rupert123]

jhorsf - 2010-02-26 7:04 PM

 

.[/quoteAndy are you and Rachel gagged as to what you say in your MMM reports about the Fiat problems as it seems the press have played a big part in covering up things and are more interested in advertising revenue than the interests of the readers

 

 

 

Cannot speak for others but as far as Andy is concerned this is an unfair comment. He is an irritating bugger but his writing is entertaining and does not include road tests. He has done more than anyone to annoy Fiat so has hardly covered this up.

[silverback]

Moyne,

calm down!!!

i know thats a silly answer with 85k of van sitting at the side of the house!

please consider this.. (i dont know if its been said cos it would take me 5hrs to read everything)

why dont you drive the van on holidays /weekends away, get some miles on it! (or have fiat told you not to drive it?) that way if the gearbox goes crunch you definitely have a warranty issue, because when it gets to 3yr old you are history!! if anything goes its under warranty (clutch or owt) stop being so stubborn in your quest! play them at there own game!!

its only a suggestion, im totally behind you on this, but i cannot help you cos im in the 2001 era and believe me they were worse then

8-)

jonathan

[Mike88]

Moyne has spent a fortune on a vehicle that is not fit for purpose. He's annoyed and who wouldn't be. He's got to take it out on someone and what better place than a forum where annonymity reigns. He's taking legal action against Fiat which is more than most people would dare do for fear of losing a fortune but - unwise or not - he has the courage to stand up to the might of Fiat even though he might eventually lose.

 

One option - and I am scratching around for a constructive suggestion here - would be to look into the possibility of retro fitting the Comfortmatic into his motorhome. As I understand it the gearbox itself is the same with the main difference being the electronics which operate the clutch. To date there have been no problems reported with the Comfortmatic.

 

Whether the parts would be available is anybody's guess but it might be an avenue worth exploring. The cost might be prohibitive but on the other hand the loss that Moyne would incur in selling his motorhome in its current state is likely to be astronomic.

 

This is probably a daft suggestion but sometimes a bit of lateral thinking can pay off.

[moyne]

"You are all talk and no action I have seen"

 

Well spoken ! All talk well I suppose this should read all writing and no action, well at least somone is p*ssed with me. ! Excellent at least I'm getting some reaction ! The issue of the build quality is not at question. I guess physics is not your strong point. Even the hardest stone can be worn down by resonance ! Check out your local beach !

When vibration of whatever kind is induced into a material it will resonate the longer the material the greater the resonance will be at a point not including infinite. As for my vehicle I have 28k of road usage on it which includes driving it twice to south of France. the isssue of the fault becomes an issue when one tries to reverse it, so for those that are engaged with my comments I shall as always be amused or should I say be mused with your defence of Fiat and the fault which is definitive in the gear box of their vehicles. I have no doubt that you have valid reasons for this !

 

I have sirs taken action, and that action is not in my annoyance to anyone who reads this blog ! An action is something which causes and equal and opposite reaction ! My engagement is to get a reaction and whether that is positive or negative, well that is what critical thinking is all about !

 

I shall continue with what ever I do outside the widths of this page and shall rest well at all times and if I get justice it will be because justice is due and the annoyance that may be caused, well, that is part of what life is all about.

 

I don't get annoyed but what I do get is well worth looking for !

 

In the words of one great philosopher "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."

 

 

 

 

[747]

Mike88 is right in his `lateral thinking` approach. There will shortly be a lot of Fiats on forecourts that nobody will touch with a bargepole. Their value will be a fraction of their true price unless a total newcomer is suckered into buying one.

 

I myself raised this point a while back. Any enterprising person who could possibly find a way of converting these White Elephants into half decent vans should be on to a winner.

 

The alternative might be bankrupt dealers and we would not want that, would we?

[PSHORT]

Mike88 - 2010-02-26 11:04 PM

 

Moyne has spent a fortune on a vehicle that is not fit for purpose. He's annoyed and who wouldn't be. He's got to take it out on someone and what better place than a forum where annonymity reigns. He's taking legal action against Fiat which is more than most people would dare do for fear of losing a fortune but - unwise or not - he has the courage to stand up to the might of Fiat even though he might eventually lose.

 

One option - and I am scratching around for a constructive suggestion here - would be to look into the possibility of retro fitting the Comfortmatic into his motorhome. As I understand it the gearbox itself is the same with the main difference being the electronics which operate the clutch. To date there have been no problems reported with the Comfortmatic.

 

Whether the parts would be available is anybody's guess but it might be an avenue worth exploring. The cost might be prohibitive but on the other hand the loss that Moyne would incur in selling his motorhome in its current state is likely to be astronomic.

 

This is probably a daft suggestion but sometimes a bit of lateral thinking can pay off.

 

I looked into the possibility of swapping 3 litres to Comfortmatic at the beginning of this sorry saga. I was assured by the local Fiat Commercial garage it was impossible,

I also think Andy may well have confirmed this, also ages ago. Shame I would have gone for it.

[Mike88]

I wonder if one of these would work

 

http://www.vehvac.co.uk/car-owner-driver/auto-clutch.htm

 

Still trying to think out of the box.

 

:-(

[euroserv]

While Rupert123 is giving Moyne an earful for his negatve comments about his somewhat disappointing purchase he would do well to remember that it was this thread that Andy started that got people together to air their grievances and woes with Fiat and the dastardly dealers and because of the sustained bad publicity that this thread caused, Fiat started to accept there was a problem and has made moves to modify problem vans and upgrade new vehicles. I am not surprised that Moyne has been a little fed up lately because the problem has not been addressed for the 3.0litre owners and the thread has gone more than a little quiet of late. It now seems that satisfied customers like Rupert would rather gag the remaining unhappy contributors, and to him I would say bugger off and start your own 'I love Fiat' thread where you can happily chat among other completely satisfied customers unless Moyne, Andy and many others decide to pee on your bonfire.

 

Keeping this thread alive and fresh is very important in the continuing campaign. Fiat need to know that all owners are aware of the problems and are united behind the forgotten few and potential buyers of defective used vehicles. We all would like to hear about your problems and if you get a result, we would be delighted to hear about that too, but to keep trying to supress the thoughts of the genuinely aggreived is pretty damned disrespectful of the hard work and tireless pressure applied by others on YOUR BEHALF. (In my opinion).

 

Ironically though; Rupert's continuing banter helps to keep the thread in the top half of the first page, so I would offer a slightly tongue in cheek 'thanks' on behalf of the others.

 

Nick

[GypsyTom]

747 - 2010-02-27 12:40 AMMike88 is right in his `lateral thinking` approach. There will shortly be a lot of Fiats on forecourts that nobody will touch with a bargepole. Their value will be a fraction of their true price unless a total newcomer is suckered into buying one.I myself raised this point a while back. Any enterprising person who could possibly find a way of converting these White Elephants into half decent vans should be on to a winner.The alternative might be bankrupt dealers and we would not want that, would we?

Speaking for myself I would not like to see more bankrupt dealers and how anyone could wish this on any company and its employees is beyond me.

I'd like to see more successful dealers making decent profits. This would give us all more choice, more convenience and more competition. I've recently been choosing a new motorhome and have eliminated some brands simply because there are no dealers within a reasonable distance.

Who wants to travel 200 miles to the nearest franchise?

As for 'white elephants' clogging up forecourts, I don't believe it. There is actually a shortage of good second hand motorhomes at present owing to people hanging on to their existing ones much longer during this recession.

This reversing problem seems to be affecting a tiny minority and thousands of people are happily driving their Fiats without a problem and let's face it, how often do you have to reverse up a steep hill?

Please don't think I'm denigrating those who do have this problem, it obviously exists and is affecting some, but hundreds of white elephants and dealers going bust, I don't think so!

[moyne]

How often do I have to reverse on a gradient ? , every time I want to get into my home which is not a steep slope by any means and from the point of entry to where the vehcile sits is exactly 20 meters.

 

A shortage of second hand vehicles balderdash my agent who can be found easily has several hundred vehicles and he ships all over europe. IF any one wants one mine it can be bought at the right price if there is anyone out there willing to take the risk of buying a good second hand vehicle, that is if they only intend to drive it forwards.

 

It's a nice day so must go turn a sod nearly time for burying some spuds !

 

 

 

[747]

GypsyTom - 2010-02-27 3:19 PM

747 - 2010-02-27 12:40 AMMike88 is right in his `lateral thinking` approach. There will shortly be a lot of Fiats on forecourts that nobody will touch with a bargepole. Their value will be a fraction of their true price unless a total newcomer is suckered into buying one.I myself raised this point a while back. Any enterprising person who could possibly find a way of converting these White Elephants into half decent vans should be on to a winner.The alternative might be bankrupt dealers and we would not want that, would we?

Speaking for myself I would not like to see more bankrupt dealers and how anyone could wish this on any company and its employees is beyond me.

I'd like to see more successful dealers making decent profits. This would give us all more choice, more convenience and more competition. I've recently been choosing a new motorhome and have eliminated some brands simply because there are no dealers within a reasonable distance.

Who wants to travel 200 miles to the nearest franchise?

As for 'white elephants' clogging up forecourts, I don't believe it. There is actually a shortage of good second hand motorhomes at present owing to people hanging on to their existing ones much longer during this recession.

This reversing problem seems to be affecting a tiny minority and thousands of people are happily driving their Fiats without a problem and let's face it, how often do you have to reverse up a steep hill?

Please don't think I'm denigrating those who do have this problem, it obviously exists and is affecting some, but hundreds of white elephants and dealers going bust, I don't think so!

So I take it you are not having any problems with your new Fiat based m/home then Tom.My remark about dealers going bust was not meant to be facetious but remarks on this forum lead me to believe that a lot of people will stay away from Fiats whether they are new or second hand. Turnover keeps a business afloat, reduced turnover and fixed costs do not go together.

[GypsyTom]

moyne - 2010-02-27 3:35 PMHow often do I have to reverse on a gradient ? , every time I want to get into my home which is not a steep slope by any means and from the point of entry to where the vehcile sits is exactly 20 meters. A shortage of second hand vehicles balderdash my agent who can be found easily has several hundred vehicles and he ships all over europe. IF any one wants one mine it can be bought at the right price if there is anyone out there willing to take the risk of buying a good second hand vehicle, that is if they only intend to drive it forwards.It's a nice day so must go turn a sod nearly time for burying some spuds !

Balderdash? I don't think so. Here's the article in last month's MMM. I rest my case.

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/channel/articleitem.asp?c=1&article=311

Can I also remind you of the last paragraph of my post, which said:

Please don't think I'm denigrating those who do have this problem, it obviously exists and is affecting some, but hundreds of white elephants and dealers going bust, I don't think so!

You may have to reverse up a steep slope but the vast majority don't! It is a fact that there are many people out there who do not have a problem and rarely reverse up steep hills. But, as I said, I have no wish to deny that the problem exists for some, but I do not believe for one minute that there are going to be hundreds of unsaleable motorhomes clogging up dealers' forecourts!

[jhorsf]

rupert123 - 2010-02-26 10:46 PM

 

jhorsf - 2010-02-26 7:04 PM

 

.[/quoteAndy are you and Rachel gagged as to what you say in your MMM reports about the Fiat problems as it seems the press have played a big part in covering up things and are more interested in advertising revenue than the interests of the readers

 

 

 

Cannot speak for others but as far as Andy is concerned this is an unfair comment. He is an irritating bugger but his writing is entertaining and does not include road tests. He has done more than anyone to annoy Fiat so has hardly covered this up.

 

 

If this is seen as a criticism of Andy it was not meant that way it was a genuine question I think Andy has done a lot for people and just wondered if he is not allowed to say more in the mag as Warners have allowed a lot to be said on here.

[Rayjsj]

rupert123 - 2010-02-26 5:50 PM

 

It has got to the point where if you wish to order a new van not based on a Fiat your choice is so small I would not bother.

 

I quite agree with this statement, I came to the same opinion after the October NEC show, with the demise of Lunar Motorhomes based on a Renault Master and Autosleeper appearing to cease converting on Ford based Vehicles, I decided that with so little choice of base vehicles I would hang on to my present van until the choice improves. I am not convinced that this ongoing problem is fixed yet, certainly the 3 litre manuals are not.

And anyone who buys a second hand X250 based 'van which is out of Manufacturer's warranty is just asking for trouble.

As for 'not needing to reverse' that is just crazy ! like Moyne i have to reverse up my Drive every time i return to home. And No-one knows when they might just HAVE to reverse possibly uphill. Ray

[Brian Kirby]

GypsyTom - 2010-02-27 3:19 PM ..............

This reversing problem seems to be affecting a tiny minority and thousands of people are happily driving their Fiats without a problem and let's face it, how often do you have to reverse up a steep hill?...........

The answer is surely wherever, and whenever, you encounter an obstruction while descending a hill, from which the only exit is back the way you came, without being able to turn around.

In practical terms, you can have no control over where, when, or if, you may encounter such an obstruction, and neither can you predict the consequences for clutch or gearbox in these vehicles if you do.  It is a risk inherent in buying one, but the potential is ever-present.

The only certain ways to eliminate the risk are to avoid narrow, downhill, roads, or...............er, oh, I forget the other one!  Now what was it?  Someone help me out here please.  Just can't put my finger on it.  No, it's no use, it's gone.  Damn!  :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Two for the price of one again!  Why is this forum running BOGOFs?

[rupert123]

Mr Euroserve

I know you have set yourself up as an expert but suggest you are another who dislikes any comments that do not agree with your opinion. I have helped to keep this going from long before you appeared. I know Fiat should be fixing faulty vans and totally agree, anyone with a faulty one that has not been fixed has to make every effort to get the problem resolved. You should go back and read your own posts about the vans you say you run, no problems their it would seem. I cannot take peoples posts at 'face value' though, especially when every post would seem to contradict the last. Take Moynes oft repeated van stands on my drive, cannot use my £80 thousand odd pound van. He then goes on to say he has done 28,000 miles. Now I do not know how old the van is but it cannot be more than a couple of years, well I would suggest that is a hell of a lot of miles for a M/H in that period and if correct he uses it a hell of a lot. He is, shall we say, prone to more than slight exaggeration. As for starting an I love Fiat thread, well if I do then hope you would contribute as you, from your past posts, seem to run mostly Fiats, with no problems.

 

Just realised Moyne probably means 28.000 kilometres but still some 17500 miles and more than most.

[Steve928]

This thread has become a joke.

[rowley]

Rupert, your comments about Nick (Euroserve) are absolutely unfounded and unnecessary. I have found his input on various threads to have been extremely helpful.

[moyne]

May I say this my previous van was a mercedes and in the under three years that I owned it I put 58k killometers on it. Ok I do get out more than most but if one leaves the North of Ireland and drives through the Uk to mid way down Spain and then up through france, Switzerland and Holland Belgium back thorugh Scotland one tends to run up the miles or kilometers. The currrent van is indeed a contradiction in that my usual 6 weeks in Europes per year means that in the current van I was not able nor willing to risk some of my usual routes.

 

I do use it, but nowhere that there is a danger of having to reverse it up hill. So given the time frame of ownership of the current vehicle I have driven almost 25k less in this can than the last and not by choice. I am not retired and work hard for my time off and would like to use my van during this time.

 

For me this meant at christmas 2009 not driving to Switzerland as we normally would do and staying in a hotel for 10 days a bit of a bummer for me wife and kids.