colinfrier Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Thanks Nick long may your input continue. I agree all X250 yes all have a potential problem even those folk who choose to bury their head in the sand. In a mass produced vehicle it is difficult to understand why there should be such differing results but clearly there are some of the factors effecting the differing transmision problem would be: Driving technique Weight Distribution Manafacturing tollerences Incline when tested Wheel diameter and there may be more There is two issue that can not vary: 1Since all have the reverse gear much higher ratio than 1st. if your trying to reverse on an incline in a confined space you must slip the clutch or judder at tickover speed to keep at a crawl speed. 2 That FIAT have nothing but contempt for ther customers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Thank you Nick for a well balanced response ! It is an unpleasant and personal challange I have been faced with when one buys anything that is in someway defective. I found Fiat when I initially contacted them to say the least uninterested and definitely dismisive of my claim. Their parts manager in Ireland (now retired) despite having received several contacts from myself did not bother to respond despite giving me assurances he would. Fiat Ireland made an arrangement for my vehicle to be looked at in Belfast through my dealer. When it arrived there Fiat in Turin told that garage not to look at it. I know I repeat myself from early quotes, but is worth of repeating ! Dethleff two years ago wrote to my dealer and me to say that had no reports of difficluties with Fiat vehicles (stinks of conspiracy). Dethleff have made no effort on my behalf other than to say there are no problems as no one has reported any problems. They appear to be missing something. Anyway, I shall keep this forum posted as to how my case proceeds, but keep the posting going it's good for the soul ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Gerard make a fair point. It is strange that so few manufacturers have faced up to this inherent defect and either twisted Fiat's tail until they squealed, or simply shopped elsewhere. It is not as though Fiat has an actual monopoly on making suitable vans, even if the number of Fiat based motorhomes creates that impression.I do just wonder to what extent both dealers, and manufacturers, have been able to "do a Nelson's eye" over this, because they have not received the complaints directly. From the majority of posts on this forum alone, right from the outset about two (three, even?) entire threads back, and the thousands of posts they individually accumulated, it is clear most of those whose vans are/were affected, chose to pursue remedies with Fiat via their guarantee, instead of going back to the dealers who sold them the 'vans.We shall never know, as it is now too late, but it is a fact that the actual legal liability lay with the dealers who sold the vans, and not with Fiat. There is a degree of legal obligation upon Fiat to comply with the terms of their guarantee, but it is limited in application, and restricted to the letter of the guarantee. The dealer's obligations, on the other hand, are far more broadly based, and easier to enforce. Had more folk taken their dealers to task, I think it at least arguable that they, and through them the manufacturers, would have been forced to recognise the severity of this problem.As it is, Fiat (IMO deservedly) has taken the flack (no doubt keeping as much to themselves as possible, while reassuring any doubting dealers and manufacturers that it is only one very noisy and persistent troublemaker who is behind all the rumours), while the motorcaravan industry as a whole gets away with claiming ignorance of the problem.The number of people who have actually led the charge is a pathetic handful, while the rest have merely sat back and waited for the results to ripple out to them. When the results have not arrived as they hoped, they do nothing constructive, but moan and mutter away on here and other forums. We've had fighting funds proposed, we've had mass protests proposed, we've had tee shirt printing proposed, we've had class actions proposed, we've had mass letter writing campaigns proposed - all so long as someone else was prepared to make the effort, and put up the cash. So much easier than actually doing something. Needless to say, all the ideas have all fizzled for lack of determination, courage and individual effort by the great, silent, backsliding, majority.No wonder Fiat prevaricates while the industry feigns ignorance. The organisation of convivial gatherings in breweries comes to mind! With my humblest apologies if these comments offend any who have made the effort, but to the rest, you are getting exactly what you deserve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Won't do to say that twice!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Cheers to the man in the picture ! If you were near I would almost buy you a pint in the aforementioned hostil ! Well as long as they served Guinness. Taking any type of action against the dealer is not an easy one and I must say my action against the supplier is done without malice towards him personally. But, Fiat suuplied Dethleff and Dethleff supplied him and they can sort out who wants to accept most responsibility among themselves. However there are no paths without turns and as long as you have an idea were you are going it helps with "that I'm lost feeling" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Cheers to the man in the picture ! If you were near I would almost buy you a pint in the aforementioned hostil ! Well as long as they served Guinness. Taking any type of action against the dealer is not an easy one and I must say my action against the supplier is done without malice towards him personally. But, Fiat suuplied Dethleff and Dethleff supplied him and they can sort out who wants to accept most responsibility among themselves. However there are no paths without turns and as long as you have an idea were you are going it helps with that I'm lost feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Page tiimed out and posted twice... Glitch ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtail Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 2.2 ,5speed Peugeot All the problems seem to be with the Fiats, and I am deeply sympathetic to these owners. However,What about the Peugeots ? In particular the 2.2/ 5speed with short wheelbase conversions, like my Elddis 140.'07yr Is there another thread covering these ? Sorry if I'm in the wrong place. I have been following the story,and following my first dealer service, made further complaint, having reorted a problem the previous year with no response. This time , with little query the vehicle was taken in and work done- apparently a ratio change,clutch etc.resulting in a barely detectable change, & judder worse if anything. Next a 'technical expert' comes from Peugeot to test it again. I have just had their letter....admitting a slight judder (=nasty judder),but say this ...is deemed not abnormal when a large vehicle '...is put under strain '. (surely driving backwards on a 1in10 slope should NOT put it under strain !!! Thank you, Mr Peugeot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Bobtail, As they all come off of the same Assy. Line in Sevel Italy, people tend to 'Lump them together' there are some differances of course, but basically they are all 'Badge Engineered' Fiats. that's why some people refer to them as 'Sevels'. Hope yours gets sorted soon. Ray This thread is starting to get Slow again, getting close to 20 pages again ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Does anyone who reads this thread ever wonder why Fiat makes no attempt to defend themselves via this text. they were quick to jump all over Andy's ass do excuse the inference ! Andy started this thread and several thousand comments later Fiat the rags that they are will only defend the personal attack on any of their employees but thier good name . ( to Hell with that) they are not in the least bit interested in defending the reputation of their company. Maybe that is because their reputation is so far down the toilet they are now relying on volume and could not give a toss. It will be interesting in times to come when all those good guys who have good vehicles are driving through the woods and suddenly the clutch does a blender imitation. Will Fiat draw from their defence of that great company and use it to pin their invoice firmly to their tongues. I shall continue to write in this forum until I get this heap off my street but until then I shall just have to keep doing what I'm good at. Motorhome for sale one careful owner if your into vibration then this one is a real winner ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Hunt Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Has anybody yet had any confirmed experience owning or driving of a modified at birth Sevel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy T Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I've thought for some time that the 3l Comfortmatic might be in trouble, if its the same gearbox but has a sophisticated control mechanism. The control mechanism will slip the clutch to avoid the judder (presumably), so no judder equals slipped clutch equals, in the fullness of time, (which might be not much time) no clutch. Come on FIAT, this issue has a similar potential to ruin your reputation as did the rust problems of past years, get a grip! Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I am sure many like Neil are waiting for feedback on the modified at birth vans and here the magazine roadtest reporters ought to help. We are told that these vans have been in production since last April though some say that they did not start till after the summer break but either way I would have thought that any demonstrator offered to the press would have the latest setup if Fiat wish to improve their reputation and ultimately sales. Yet the Marquis Dorset on a "59" plate tested in March 2010 MMM still has judder. The optimists like Neil and myself hope it is an early "59" van prior to "modification at birth" starting. But if a magazine is going to comment on judder ( many will not ) then can they not say whether the new box is fitted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Hello, Normally a significant change in production would happen during the September shutdown, but the Fiat parts system clearly notes a change to gearbox part numbers from April 2009. Andy Stothert tells me that he has driven a panel van with the updated box (built after April 2009 and confirmed as such) and was very disappointed. I think the best thing to do is not buy any X250 derivative. The manufacturers have nothing to offer to cure the issues and will rely on fobbing you off until the warranty runs out and then you are on your own. It is shameful that the coachbuilders keep turning them out regardless and deplorable if not illegal that the dealers are happy to sell you one knowing that it has an inherent fault and stand back while you struggle with the manufacturer to get it sorted out. If one (yes ONE) of the originally affected owners had taken the DEALER to task and this matter had gone to court it might well have become effectively illegal to sell any more of these defective vehicles. If you knowingly buy something that you strongly suspect has a fault perhaps that is just as wrong. It all comes back to the question..."Do you feel lucky?" and if you run out of luck, who do you really want to blame for it? We all know how this works out now, so don't do it. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Nick. Does your advice not to buy an X250 now extend to the Comfortmatic and if so what has changed your mind.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 No. I still think it is brilliant but I would hate to find out in a couple of years that I was wrong and that lots of people had gone down that path. I believe in it and I would buy more of them but .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 If you have bought a van which now has a difficulty or indeed presents with a difficulty in the future, then it is incumbant on a seller to have made you aware of all information which he has in his posession relating to any known problems that may arise in the future with this vehicle. Now one could always argue this point , but lets take the case of the damaged vehicle. It is in Ireland anyway a legal requirement that you are made aware that this vehicle has been repaired. A few dealers have fallen on that sword. So when buying a motorhome the dealer is aware that the vehicle he is selling may have a manufacturing fault in the gearbox then he has a responsibility to you. Of course the latin term "Caveat Emptor" Let the buyer beware, could apply, but it can be argued "Caveat Emptor", Let the seller beware. The seller has a responsibility to disclose to you information. My supplier knew that a difficulty was inherent in Fiat and did not disclose this information to me at any time during the sale negotiation. Obviously this would have saved my lots of dosh had he done so ! Naturally whatever time we get Fiat into court this failure to disclose known information will be important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 euroserv - 2010-03-05 12:51 PM Andy Stothert tells me that he has driven a panel van with the updated box (built after April 2009 and confirmed as such) and was very disappointed. I spoke to the convertor who alerted andy to this van, he was very fed up about it, he seemed to think it was one of the worst he had driven :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Fiat were still monitoring this forum at least until quite recently because I occasionally saw them listed as 'online' on the home page. There is nothing to suggest that Fiat UK and thereby Fiat Italy are not 100% fully aware of the problems, of the frustration, of the disgust, and of the gut wrenching sick feeling that unfortunate owners who paid out in good faith are experiencing just now. Fiat would do well to take lessons in how to generate customer loyalty and how to act with integrity from Toyota. I'm not bloody well buying one - ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 bobtail - 2010-03-02 11:46 AM 2.2 ,5speed Peugeot All the problems seem to be with the Fiats, and I am deeply sympathetic to these owners. However,What about the Peugeots ? In particular the 2.2/ 5speed with short wheelbase conversions, like my Elddis 140.'07yr Is there another thread covering these ? Sorry if I'm in the wrong place. I have been following the story,and following my first dealer service, made further complaint, having reorted a problem the previous year with no response. This time , with little query the vehicle was taken in and work done- apparently a ratio change,clutch etc.resulting in a barely detectable change, & judder worse if anything. Next a 'technical expert' comes from Peugeot to test it again. I have just had their letter....admitting a slight judder (=nasty judder),but say this ...is deemed not abnormal when a large vehicle '...is put under strain '. (surely driving backwards on a 1in10 slope should NOT put it under strain !!! Thank you, Mr Peugeot. Like you, I too have a Peugeot (Stargazer 2.2L but 6 speed box), and like you it has gone through the Peugeot system ( after initial hassle to get them to test it), and like you it has had box changed, twice, as well as clutch etc and has had the "expert" from coventry examine it and that resulted in change of engine mounts and egr valve. Net result negligible difference in reverse problem, and like you, the expert tells me it is a characteristic, and the revs should exceed 1300 rpm in reverse to eliminate the problem. ( he demonstrated this on my local test slope ) The customer services end response was that in the event that I have a future problem within a reasonable timescale (undefined) they would consider my case sympathetically. However, clutch was not covered by warranty, (read the warranty!) I have kept all the email exchanges for record. Unfortunatley, I made the mistake of dealing direct with Peugeot, not via the van dealership , as when I attempted to discuss the problem with the boss at the dealership at their summer spectacular, he went into denial mode, blamed my driving, and said any problems would have to be dealt with by Peugeot as that was the base vehicle. I was not complaining about the motorhome side of the van, which he would have been able to sort out.. Van is 2 years old in October, and so far I have deliberately avoided reversing uphill, but Austria is destination in June, so can I please ask Austrian authorities to ensure that all hills only face downwards for reversing!!! tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 What a great incentive to buy a new motorhome ? 4 years and they STILL hav'nt sorted the Gearbox design problem. They might be the 'Cats Whiskers' going fowards, but if it can't reverse uphill it's into 'Chocolate Fireguard' territory. Fix It Again Tony ! *-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 Tracker - 2010-03-05 8:03 PM Fiat were still monitoring this forum at least until quite recently because I occasionally saw them listed as 'online' on the home page. There is nothing to suggest that Fiat UK and thereby Fiat Italy are not 100% fully aware of the problems, of the frustration, of the disgust, and of the gut wrenching sick feeling that unfortunate owners who paid out in good faith are experiencing just now. Fiat would do well to take lessons in how to generate customer loyalty and how to act with integrity from Toyota. I'm not bloody well buying one - ever! Come off it Rich. Not going to argue the Fiat bit but integrity by Toyota, you are having a laugh. Suggest you read the full story on this, which goes back some two years with Toyota acting in exactly the same way as Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 Tracker - 2010-03-05 8:03 PM Fiat were still monitoring this forum at least until quite recently because I occasionally saw them listed as 'online' on the home page. There is nothing to suggest that Fiat UK and thereby Fiat Italy are not 100% fully aware of the problems, of the frustration, of the disgust, and of the gut wrenching sick feeling that unfortunate owners who paid out in good faith are experiencing just now. Fiat would do well to take lessons in how to generate customer loyalty and how to act with integrity from Toyota. I'm not bloody well buying one - ever! Come off it Rich. Not going to argue the Fiat bit but integrity by Toyota, you are having a laugh. Suggest you read the full story on this, which goes back some two years with Toyota acting in exactly the same way as Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I guess one must admit Toyota have known there was a problem over the last two years and they did somewhat mess up. YES they messed up. But Fiat they are different they have not admitted to single owner that there is a manufacturing fault in any of their vehicles. Oh yes, they will fix the ones that break down that is if you are in the mood for squeelin like a stuck pig for long enough, but the rest of us, well we will just have to live with what we have bought and tough ! So no Fiat is not like Toyota. They could not even compare with Toyota because Fiat have known for several years that a problem exists and no reacals no effort, no cure. Except that is if your willing to take your case before the justice system ! I suppose their adds should read "Buy a Ducatto and get your first repair free and second repair free and third repair well hopeully the warranty will have run out "! I cannot imagine anyone buying a 45k plus vehicle and be willing to accept that buying one will mean having to get it fixed. Still have no offers to buy this bone shaker of mine ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Agree Moyne Fiat not like Toyota, a vibration in reverse does not have the potential to kill people. Faulty steering, brakes and accelerator do. Fiat have not had to close all their plants in the USA down and Toyota only started to recall AFTER court cases in the USA were bought. It is easy to assume, when you personally have a problem, that manufacturer is the only one in denial, not true I am afraid they are all the same. Recent problems with BMW wheels another example, they are still saying their is not a problem. Why do you not bring your court case instead of just talking about it then if you win others will benefit and fiat will have to do the work required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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