Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[Rayjsj]

David,

I think that you will find that the Autosleeper Duetto on a Ford chassis was one of their best sellers, there are still hundreds if not thousands of them about giving sterling service. My previous 'tongue in cheek' post was saying that you can't 'Force' a best seller, by removing ALL alternatives, only time will tell whether they made a mistake or not.

I hope they didn't, as I would like Autosleeper to be around for a long time yet. BUT I still won't be buying an X250 based motorhome or PVC for ANY price. Ray

[Guest Peter James]

You WILL have an X250 whether you like it or NOT ! there! thats telling you. Mr. Grubby Customer. 8-) :'(

 

Comments like this are nonsense. Look in the showrooms, you can have any make of conversion you want. Its the customer who chooses sevels.

 

I have the 3.5 ton 120 6 speed X250 van. Reverse gear is a bit high but it is not a problem. I have spoken to many other X250 whitevanmen, many having covered well over 100,000 miles. None had even heard of the judder, none have had clutch or gearbox problems, and none have complained.

 

It may be the extra weight of some motorhomes I don't know. My 2 year old X250 van is licensed for 3.5 ton, and reverses up the steepest hills without drama. But the plate under the bonnet gives a train (towing) weight up to 6.5 tonne. If it had been modified as a motorhome and made up to that weight perhaps it would struggle backing up hills.

[Brian Kirby]

Peter James - 2010-04-04 12:21 PM ......... Look in the showrooms, you can have any make of conversion you want. Its the customer who chooses sevels. ..............

Can you corroborate this claim, Peter?  It does not coincide with what I see.  Nearly all new motorhomes, whether panel van conversions, coachbuilts, or A class vans, are Sevel based.  Where is this choice for the customer?

[Rayjsj]

Peter,

All of this thread started because X250's ON A VAN chassis had started to Judder and Eat their Gearboxes (fact not conjecture).

Choice in Dealer Showrooms is VERY restricted if you specify NO X250 as a Base (I know I have tried !) We want this problem fixed ! But 'taking a gamble' is not in my nature. What we want is more choice of base Vehicles

and 'We Ain't getting it'. The new Tribute on the Ford looks promising and I am hoping to get a look at the whole range soon. Not Nonsense ! (I did say it was 'tongue in cheek'). Check next time you are on a Motorway do a quick survey on EXACTLY what Mr White-Van-Man IS driving in the main. It isn't Sevels. Ray

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2010-04-04 12:38 PM

Peter James - 2010-04-04 12:21 PM ......... Look in the showrooms, you can have any make of conversion you want. Its the customer who chooses sevels. ..............

Can you corroborate this claim, Peter?  It does not coincide with what I see.  Nearly all new motorhomes, whether panel van conversions, coachbuilts, or A class vans, are Sevel based.  Where is this choice for the customer?

Thats an easy one. Just look in Brownhills Newark, you can have VW, Ford, etc etc no problem. But, like the commercial vans they are derived from, they tend to be more expensive than the X250 for the same sized van. Admittedly this is the biggest showroom in Europe so all these brands won't be available at smaller dealers, presumably because there is not so much demand for them. But no doubt they would be available if the customer wants to buy them.

[Guest Peter James]

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[Guest Peter James]

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deleted as accidentally posted the same message 3 times)

[Guest Peter James]

Check next time you are on a Motorway do a quick survey on EXACTLY what Mr White-Van-Man IS driving in the main. It isn't Sevels. Ray

 

I see plenty of X250 vans around here. Can I suggest you do a survey and ask X250whitevanman about the judder. I have. Once they realised I was not trying to sell them anything they were happy to talk about, and praise, their X250 vans. I have not found one whitevanman that has complained about the judder. Not one. Very few had even heard of it. When I said I had read about it on motorhome forums the usual comment was along the lines of van drivers are busy people and that motorhome drivers probably don't have enough to do to occupy their mind.

 

Does anybody know of any X250commercial van that has had the fix?

[Symbol Owner]

Peter -- I started this particular 'hare' running precisely because visits to my friendly local motor caravan dealer have shown that almost the only new 'vans ( and most of the recent second-hand ones) are on the Fiat/Peugeot/citroen Seval X250 base -- and, if (like me) you are in the market for panel van conversions and not 'Horse-box' sized coach built motor homes,there would seem to be almost no choice. Auto-Sleepers link with Marquis motor homes seems to be limiting their horizons even more -- which is where I came in! As for white van men --- my comprehensive reading of these threads ( back to Andy Stothert's post of Jan 2008) was all about the weight of camper vans/motor homes and reversing up 1in 5 gradients and some people seem to think that evena white van is likely to develop the dreaded 'judder' in those circumstances. See the series of very sensible and thoughtful posts from Nick (Euroserve) over the past months/years on these threads.

[webbocj]

I have the X250 m/h, and I am sick of the situation that FIAT have created, the ONLY satisfaction I get is seeing hardly any on the road being used by large national companies. These obviously have done there homework AND have got a choice. Fiat must be giving them away to the converters, and what a devious lot they must be to keep using them. Wasting my time, nothing will change.

 

chris

 

[rupert123]

Rayjsj - 2010-04-04 12:49 PM

 

Peter,

Check next time you are on a Motorway do a quick survey on EXACTLY what Mr White-Van-Man IS driving in the main. It isn't Sevels. Ray

 

Depends what country you are in. I have just returned from France and nearly all 'white van men' are driving Sevel vans, it means nothing and is a daft argument.

[Guest Peter James]

Symbol Owner - 2010-04-04 1:31 PM

As for white van men --- my comprehensive reading of these threads ( back to Andy Stothert's post of Jan 2008) was all about the weight of camper vans/motor homes and reversing up 1in 5 gradients and some people seem to think that evena white van is likely to develop the dreaded 'judder' in those circumstances.

 

Thats why I asked if any commercial vans were affected. Since no one can point to one single commercial van that has had the fix I take it thats a 'No' then?

[Guest Peter James]

I have not onlyspoken to as many Sevel van drivers as I can find, but have searched the trade websites that review the Sevel commercial vans. (like this one http://www.parkers.co.uk/vans/reviews/peugeot/boxer-2006.aspx ) None of them that I have seen have even mentioned the judder.

 

Most of the commercial van drivers I have spoken to did not own the vans they drove, typically they were on lease. So repair costs and resale value was of less concern to them. But that cuts both ways. Since they did not foot the bills for repairs and were paid by loads delivered, they were less likely to drive them gently, as befitting the image of whitevanman. Nevertheless, they had covered some very high mileages, without any clutch or gearbox problems.

[Guest Peter James]

I have not only spoken to as many Sevel van drivers as I can, but have searched the trade websites that review the Sevel commercial vans. (like this one http://www.parkers.co.uk/vans/reviews/peugeot/boxer-2006.aspx ) None of them that I have seen have even mentioned the judder.

 

Most of the commercial van drivers I have spoken to did not own the vans they drove, typically they were on lease. So repair costs and resale value was of less concern to them. But that cuts both ways. Since they did not foot the bills for repairs and were paid by loads delivered, they were less likely to drive them gently, as befitting the image of whitevanman. Nevertheless, they had covered some very high mileages, without any clutch or gearbox problems.

[Guest Peter James]

I have not only spoken to as many Sevel van drivers as I can, but have searched the trade websites that review the Sevel commercial vans. (like this one http://www.parkers.co.uk/vans/reviews/peugeot/boxer-2006.aspx ) None of them that I have seen have even mentioned the judder.

 

Most of the commercial van drivers I have spoken to did not own the vans they drove, typically they were on lease. So repair costs and resale value was of less concern to them. But that cuts both ways. Since they did not foot the bills for repairs and were paid by loads delivered, they were less likely to drive them gently, as befitting the image of whitevanman. Nevertheless, they had covered some very high mileages, without any clutch or gearbox problems.

[Rayjsj]

I think that you'll find that as Fiat refuse to 'Officially' register this as a fault hence 'no recall notice'. That Vans (as opposed to converts motorhomes/PVC) are not getting any of the changes whether they want them or not. My local Plumber who has a MWB Fiat X250 just 'never tries to reverse uphill , as it shakes itself to bits ! '(quote). and Fiat say, as they did in the beggining with M/H's, that that (the Judder) is a characteristic of the vehicle, NOT a fault.

Boy! this is tedious ! having to keep going over the same ground.

People who don't think there is a problem, and those who know that there is. Come back Moyle ! all is forgiven. *-) Ray

[Guest Peter James]

I have not only spoken to as many Sevel van drivers as I can, but have searched the trade websites that review the Sevel commercial vans. (like this one http://www.parkers.co.uk/vans/reviews/peugeot/boxer-2006.aspx ) None of them that I have seen have even mentioned the judder.

 

Most of the commercial van drivers I have spoken to did not own the vans they drove, typically they were on lease. So repair costs and resale value was of less concern to them. But that cuts both ways. Since they did not foot the bills for repairs and were paid by loads delivered, they were less likely to drive them gently, as befitting the image of whitevanman. Nevertheless, they had covered some very high mileages, without any clutch or gearbox problems.

[Guest Peter James]

Please delete all the duplications above

When I post I get a message saying I am unable to post due to a server fault and the webmaster has been informed

So I click to send it again later

Then find every click has posted the message so it is duplicated again

[Guest Peter James]

This is the message I keep getting when I try to post. Then I discover the post has been made.

QUOTE:Sorry, the server encountered an internal error and was unable to process the page you requested.

 

The webmaster has been informed of this error and will look into it as soon as possible.

 

Please try again later - for now click here to return to our homepage.

 

[Guest Peter James]

This is the message I keep getting when I try to post. Then I discover the post has been made.

QUOTE:Sorry, the server encountered an internal error and was unable to process the page you requested.

 

The webmaster has been informed of this error and will look into it as soon as possible.

 

Please try again later - for now click here to return to our homepage.

 

[Symbol Owner]

I, too, have been getting the same message -- just 'submit' once and wait -- when you get the message, close the page and go back to the beginning -- when you enter the thread again your post will have appeared -- magic!

Not all of us motor homers are 'grumpy old men who don't know how to drive properly peter!

[Brian Kirby]

Peter James - 2010-04-04 12:58 PM Thats an easy one. Just look in Brownhills Newark, you can have VW, Ford, etc etc no problem. But, like the commercial vans they are derived from, they tend to be more expensive than the X250 for the same sized van. Admittedly this is the biggest showroom in Europe so all these brands won't be available at smaller dealers, presumably because there is not so much demand for them. But no doubt they would be available if the customer wants to buy them.

Ah, but I think you may misunderstand what we seek, Peter.  What is significant about a motorhome is not the base vehicle, it is the conversion and the accommodation it provides.  The base vehicle merely transports the accommodation.  To that extent, it is expected to perform that task reliably, and with reasonable comfort and economy.  That is all.  It is merely the means to the end.  Discussions as to the experiences of white van man are irrelevant, because white van man is not driving the heavier, larger motorhome.  He is driving the van, from which the motorhome is derived.  It matters not how many van drivers you talk to, their experience is not of driving motorhomes.  If you want to know how these vans perform as motorhomes, you have to ask those who drive them as motorhomes.

As to Brownhills, and their range, what you say is correct in the narrow sense that if you want, for example, a VW T5 based motorhome, you can find one there.  A solitary Auto Sleepers Trooper.

However, if you look across the board you find this.

Hymer: The Excis and Van are on Ford.  The S Liners are Merc.  Hymer Car is Sevel.  The Tramps and Camps are Sevel.  B Class are Sevel, except Best Line Merc and B-XL Iveco.  Swift: all Sevel.  Autotrial: all Sevel.  Ace: all Sevel.  Roller Team: Auto Roller Ford, Altesa Sevel.  Rapido: all Sevel, except M range on Merc.  Auto Sleepers: all Sevel, except Trooper VW T6, and Mezan Pug Partner.  Elddis: all Sevel.  Excel: all Sevel.  Trigano: all Sevel.  Carado: all Sevel.  Bessacarr: all Sevel.  CI: Carioca Sevel, Cusona Ford.  Autocruise: all Sevel.  Danbury: Mexican made VW.

So objectively, with very little exception, most of all the makers' ranges, and the whole most makers' ranges, are on Sevel bases.  With the exception of those relatively few on Ford Transits, those vans not on Sevel bases are all large, heavy, and very costly.  For most of the cheaper ranges, and the whole of the mid price range, all that is on offer is Sevel based.  So, unless you are rather rich, not really much choice of base vehicles at all.  That was my point.

[Ina]

Being in the market for a new motorhome we went to look at a secondhand one yesterday on a 3 litre Fiat. Of course during the test drive we took it to a reasonable, but not very steep, hill, and lo and behold, there was the dreaded vibration/judder. The judder, admittedly, wasn't too bad, but nevertheless it was there. And when you are spending thousands on a vehicle, it should be able to reverse as smoothly as it will travel forwards.

 

Our current engine is the 2.8JTD, and we have a driveway which slopes. This is our 4th motorhome and none of them have ever had any problems with vibration/judder when reversing them up the driveway. They all reversed smoothly, including our current one.

 

So the search goes on, as there is no way that we will put any money into a van with potential problems. WE were very tempted and it is easy to get carried away, but I don't want to buy a vehicle, then worry about it every time we go anywhere in case we hit problems when reversing.

 

And I can tell you, after months of searching, there are precious few A-Class vans (which is what we are interested in) available in non-FIAT versions, unless, as Brian says, you are willing and able to spend a vast fortune.

 

Ina.

[AndyStothert]

I think I can recall buying a 'commercial' Fiat Ducato (MWB 2.3 litre 6 speed 120 version) in May 2007. Admittedly it did have a few bits of wood and cloth chucked in the back when I got it, and oh yes, windows in the sides too, but still definitely a Fiat van. Perhaps the fact that it is metallic blue makes a difference?

Anyway a week after getting it I had to reverse up a steep hill in Yorkshire, and was compelled to use 3000 rpm and leave rubber on the road to achieve a smooth-ish take-off.

'This can't be right' thinks I, being a very experienced driver in hilly places and never had any probelms like this before, so I went to the local Fiat dealer to ask 'em about it. Thinking a contaminated clutch was to blame, or faulty clutch assembly, or even a warped flwyheel or something.

'Ah' says the service manager 'you aren't the first to complain about this'.

They had already had a builder whinging about his loaded van juddering like mad up hills backwards, and a joiner whose 120 Ducato wouldn't even reverse on the level with his loaded trailer attached.

As everyone knows (perhaps with exception of Peter James) two months later this same Fiat Ducato commercial van (with a few bits of wood and cloth chucked in the back, and windows in the sides) damaged its gearbox whilst reversing up a long steep hill in the Black Mountains.

Being a bit peeved about this I decided to talk to every single Ducato driver I could find for quite a while, and ever single one who had been on steep hill in reverse said it shook like crazy if the van was loaded.

So you see, chucking a few bits of wood and cloth in the back of our commercial vehicle (weighing less 600kg) made it useless in hilly terrain.

And when the Fiat representative tried to reverse our van up a nasty little hill here in hilly Lancashire he destroyed the clutch as he tried to avoid wrecking the box by constantly slipping the clutch.

The list which I subsequently compiled of unhappy Ducato and Boxer drivers also contained many private owners of purely commercial vehicle owners, and which have had the modifications done to them.

Does Mr James think that Fiat have spent about 30 to 40 million Euros throughout Europe making these modifications for fun?

And that they have gone to the expense and trouble of modifying the present production gearbox just for the hell of it?

I'll refrain from any sarcastic comments about his intentions, intelligence, and or knowledge of this subject, for we are all very civilised here about this subject.

Well we are now that Fiat have acknowledged (even if Mr James doesn't) there is a fault.

[flicka]

Peter James - 2010-04-04 1:09 PM

 

Check next time you are on a Motorway do a quick survey on EXACTLY what Mr White-Van-Man IS driving in the main. It isn't Sevels. Ray

 

I see plenty of X250 vans around here. Can I suggest you do a survey and ask X250whitevanman about the judder. I have. Once they realised I was not trying to sell them anything they were happy to talk about, and praise, their X250 vans. I have not found one whitevanman that has complained about the judder. Not one. Very few had even heard of it. When I said I had read about it on motorhome forums the usual comment was along the lines of van drivers are busy people and that motorhome drivers probably don't have enough to do to occupy their mind.

 

Does anybody know of any X250commercial van that has had the fix?

 

Maybe not, (but see Andy's post) BUT the commercial van is Not an X250. The X250 chassis is specifically Fiat's Motorhome base.