Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[colin]

Peter James - 2010-04-04 3:32 PM

 

I have not onlyspoken to as many Sevel van drivers as I can find, but have searched the trade websites that review the Sevel commercial vans. (like this one http://www.parkers.co.uk/vans/reviews/peugeot/boxer-2006.aspx ) None of them that I have seen have even mentioned the judder.

 

Most of the commercial van drivers I have spoken to did not own the vans they drove, typically they were on lease. So repair costs and resale value was of less concern to them. But that cuts both ways. Since they did not foot the bills for repairs and were paid by loads delivered, they were less likely to drive them gently, as befitting the image of whitevanman. Nevertheless, they had covered some very high mileages, without any clutch or gearbox problems.

 

I have occasion to drive commercial seval vans as well as PVC, given the right (or wrong) conditions they judder, but I will repeat this again as I have many times in past, I've never had one judder on tarmac only on grass slopes.

[david lloyd]

Rayjsj - 2010-04-04 12:14 PM

 

David,

I think that you will find that the Autosleeper Duetto on a Ford chassis was one of their best sellers, there are still hundreds if not thousands of them about giving sterling service. My previous 'tongue in cheek' post was saying that you can't 'Force' a best seller, by removing ALL alternatives, only time will tell whether they made a mistake or not.

I hope they didn't, as I would like Autosleeper to be around for a long time yet. BUT I still won't be buying an X250 based motorhome or PVC for ANY price. Ray

 

Hi Rayjsj

 

You are right, A/sleeper did favour the transit for this model and ran the symbol alongside, presumeably to provide some customer choice, but there weren't many others who used it on a regular basis. In the main, the transit (like the VW transporter) just wasn't wide enough to allow a comfortable width for a transverse bed and had a tendency to be much narrower at roof height rather than the more box like (square) sevel versions. One change that made it much more popular for other converters, I think, was the addition of a dash mounted gearstick. The floor mounted version was always seen as a drawback by many testers and, presumeably, potential customers when it came to cab to rear access.

 

As Brian says, this still doesn't explain why so many coachbuilt and A Class vans are built on this chassis though. Not all the alternatives were (are) expensive like the sprinter. Our previous Knaus Sun Ti was built on a Renault Master chassis cab and was an excellent base for performance and handling. I would certainly prefer to see converters making their models available on alternative chassis' like the Duetto and Symbol so that if you are seeking a modedl by a particular builder like A/S in preference to anyone else you do have real choice.

 

David

[Rayjsj]

Flicka

Maybe not, (but see Andy's post) BUT the commercial van is Not an X250. The X250 chassis is specifically Fiat's Motorhome base.

/Quote

 

 

 

 

I didn't know that ! I thought X250 was the generic name for all 'New' Sevel models since late 2006. Any other opinions ??

 

I agree about the old Transit and Transverse beds, but I don't think the 'old' sevel vans could manage Transverse beds either ? (could be wrong ? anyone know of any ?) and the central mounted gearstick was a nuisance, But that still didn't sstop them from being very popular.

I'm with Brian give us all a bit more choice (please Mr Converter)

[Brambles]

Agree re X250 - generic name, and the X251 is the Maxi version. X2/50 and X2/51 to be more accurate.

[Guest Peter James]

Symbol Owner - 2010-04-04 4:35 PM

 

I, too, have been getting the same message -- just 'submit' once and wait -- when you get the message, close the page and go back to the beginning -- when you enter the thread again your post will have appeared -- magic!

Not all of us motor homers are 'grumpy old men who don't know how to drive properly peter!

 

Thanks for the advice - I'll try again.

[Guest Peter James]

Brambles - 2010-04-05 12:12 PM

 

Agree re X250 - generic name, and the X251 is the Maxi version. X2/50 and X2/51 to be more accurate.

 

Its good to see someone getting their facts right

 

I am copying this from the official Fiat Ducato training manual CD, which only illustrates commercial vans, no motorhomes;

 

Project name: X2/12

Produced from 1981 to 1994 (Ducato 10 and 13)

Maxi versions from 1986 to 1994

Restyling in 1990

(shows photo of van)

 

Project name: X2/30

Produced from 1994 to 2002

(shows photo of van)

 

Project name: X2/44

Produced from 2002 to 2006

(shows photo of van)

 

Project name: X2/50

Produced from 2006

(shows photo of van)

 

 

[nowtelse2do]

I know a lot of people are aware of this, Auto Trail's Tribute will be built on the Ford and the majority of the Adria line-up will be on the new Renault. So maybe a better choice on the horizon.

Dave

[Guest Peter James]

AndyStothert - 2010-02-26 3:21 PM

These are mass produced modern vehicles made to very precise tolerances, and if a single one of them requires a lower ratio reverse gear to function correctly, never mind thousands, then every last one of them does.

There is no luck involved - every single 2.3 litre Ducato made before the modified box was put into the production line carries the risk of sudden gearbox damage in steep places, or of early clutch failure if the use is regularly in steep or awkward places.

 

A quick look at the catalogue shows an enormous number of variants in body type, body size, weight, gear ratios, and wheel sizes. Thats even before the converters start working on them and producing an infinite number of variations - in vehicles and in drivers. It does not follow that if one judders they all will.

 

Reading this forum you may get the idea that most of them judder, because most of the Victor Meldrews are on here. When I talked to X2/50 drivers at random I got the idea that hardly any of them judder. In which case you can hardly blame Fiat for not putting out a very expensive general recall when the overwhelming majority of vans probably will not need it.

Who wouldn't take their van in for a free new clutch and gearbox, whether they needed it or not, if Sevel offered it to everyone?

That is not to say we should not support those who may have a genuine judder.

[Symbol Owner]

Thanks to all of you, particularly Brian, Ray and David Lloyd,for such a comprehensive set of replies to my original question!

Even though I had read most of the posts on this Forum on the 'judder' question since Andy's post of Jan 2008, I didn't expect a major spat between an incandescent Andy and ( yet another ) judder denier!

[colinfrier]

Forget JUDDER for a moment it would seem some do some don't but what is common to all is to high reverse ratio.

If you try to reverse up a slope then to keep your speed down you have to slip the clutch steeper the slope the more you slip Slip=Premature clutch failure.

All x250 do this.

[tonyishuk]

I have tried to search (Lets not go there AGAIN !)

 

Taking on board there are variations of gearbox and final drive ratios.

 

Is there a list of such information Vs GVW and or chassis length, or manufacturers which relate to owners that suffer this problem?

 

I would like to know :

 

Have manufacturers specified the correct gearing for the Motor Home weight / body type ?

 

and/or the inherent fault is made worse because in the past, gearboxes and final drives were forgiving, and the new variation needed more research by builders before specifying and purchasing the gearboxes and chassises (Chassi ?)

 

Rgds

 

Rgds

 

 

[david lloyd]

Rayjsj - 2010-04-05 11:35 AM

 

Flicka

Maybe not, (but see Andy's post) BUT the commercial van is Not an X250. The X250 chassis is specifically Fiat's Motorhome base.

/Quote

 

 

 

 

I didn't know that ! I thought X250 was the generic name for all 'New' Sevel models since late 2006. Any other opinions ??

 

I agree about the old Transit and Transverse beds, but I don't think the 'old' sevel vans could manage Transverse beds either ? (could be wrong ? anyone know of any ?) and the central mounted gearstick was a nuisance, But that still didn't sstop them from being very popular.

I'm with Brian give us all a bit more choice (please Mr Converter)

 

Hi Rayjsj

 

Yes the pre 2007 model of the sevel vans was wide enough for transverse bed arrangements. Our previous model IH Tio R was a 2005 with rear side sofas that made the double bed and the popular Adria Twin was first launched on the old Ducato.

 

Our new van is the IH Tio RL which is slightly longer (Maxi chassis) which gives us the same layout but with the option of twin single beds. It is difficult when you have selected your converter (like Autosleeper for instance) for valid rea sons but the model you feel is right is only available on the sevel chassis. In our case IH were always going to be the converter and the Tio RL the model but it wouldn't work on the transit and is only available on the Ducato or Sprinter. The latter being too high for the car port and quite a bit more expensive so I opted for the Comfortmatic as a way of getting the Make/model of van we wanted.

 

David

[Guest Peter James]

colinfrier - 2010-04-05 4:20 PM

 

Forget JUDDER for a moment it would seem some do some don't but what is common to all is to high reverse ratio.

If you try to reverse up a slope then to keep your speed down you have to slip the clutch steeper the slope the more you slip Slip=Premature clutch failure.

All x250 do this.

 

That may be so. But even if the clutches don't last as long as other makes that is not grounds for expecting a new clutch and gearbox is it?, bearing in mind the Sevel vans are at the cheap end of the market, and the Whitevanman I spoke to who had already done 120,000 miles without any problems suggests these components can last a reasonable time.

 

 

 

[fred grant]

james, a proper cornish name there me ansums. is you cornish then pj my luvver?

 

the last pj fred knew was at cambourne school of mines with thee.

 

e went off to work sumwhere in slough. is you still there my biddy?

 

cantfathomthefiatthreadfred

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi I dont want to raise anyone's hopes too high, but last week on the local TV they reported that Ford at southampton were now going to concentrate on Cab/chassis versions of their new transit design, and production of full vans was being transferred abroad.

 

If this is indeed true, then UK chassis/ cab versions appear to be the sort of things that might offer some competition to a certain other continental base vehicle supplier. Whether they will "catch on" or not remains to be seen, and if they do, will they be able to go backwards uphill remains to be seen. could it be that S...L/F..T have a potential opposition in the making.

 

Anyone have any inside knowledge of Ford's version?

 

tonyg3nwl

 

Tonyg3nwl

[Symbol Owner]

Thanks, Tony,

just the question that I was asking!

Ray seemed to be saying earlier that the new tribute series is on the Ford base that you are referring to, so perhaps there is hope after all!

 

Colin.

[Brian Kirby]

Peter James - 2010-04-05 1:21 PM ........... I am copying this from the official Fiat Ducato training manual CD, ...............

My apologies if this is an unfair question, Peter, but how do you happen to have access to that CD?

[RoyH]

I think maybe, Brian, that Fred knows more than he lets on:

 

Fiat Auto (UK) Ltd Head Office Tel: (01753) 511431 240 Bath Rd, SLOUGH, SL1 4HJ

[RoyH]

Tried to post this 10 minutes ago but it hasn't appeared, so here goes again. I suppose it will be on twice now.

 

It seems maybe, Brian, that Fred knows more that he lets on:

 

Fiat Auto (UK) Ltd Head Office Tel: (01753) 511431 240 Bath Rd, SLOUGH, SL1 4HJ

[Ned Swift]

..............light at the end of a very long tunnel. 8-)

 

Ned

 

(lol)

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2010-04-05 8:42 PM

Peter James - 2010-04-05 1:21 PM ........... I am copying this from the official Fiat Ducato training manual CD, ...............

My apologies if this is an unfair question, Peter, but how do you happen to have access to that CD?

I got a couple of discs cheap off ebay, advertised as a workshop manual, which is what I was hoping for.In their way these discs are very good. Hundreds of pages of very professional top quality exploded drawings / photographs of every major component. But they take the form of a detailed description of the vehicle/ spares catalogue, rather than a workshop manual. There is some explanation of how the unusual components work, but no step by step dismantling and reassembly instructions like you get in a Haynes manual. Some things you would need to know, like torque wrench settings, are also missing. I'm not complaining because these were cheap and are better than nothing. But there is not enough info in them to do much in the way of repairs and maintenance, so I am still looking for a workshop manual.

[Guest Peter James]

RoyH - 2010-04-05 9:41 PM

 

Tried to post this 10 minutes ago but it hasn't appeared, so here goes again. I suppose it will be on twice now.

 

It seems maybe, Brian, that Fred knows more that he lets on:

 

Fiat Auto (UK) Ltd Head Office Tel: (01753) 511431 240 Bath Rd, SLOUGH, SL1 4HJ

 

Who is Fred?

 

Or If this is a private joke why post it in a public forum? (?)

[rupert123]

Peter James - 2010-04-06 9:05 AM

 

RoyH - 2010-04-05 9:41 PM

 

Tried to post this 10 minutes ago but it hasn't appeared, so here goes again. I suppose it will be on twice now.

 

It seems maybe, Brian, that Fred knows more that he lets on:

 

Fiat Auto (UK) Ltd Head Office Tel: (01753) 511431 240 Bath Rd, SLOUGH, SL1 4HJ

 

Who is Fred?

 

Or If this is a private joke why post it in a public forum? (?)

 

Fred is a mock Cornish bloke who thinks he is funny, but rarely is, and never has anything usefull to say.

[colinfrier]

I find the arguement that FIAT'S are cheap so what do you expect unbelieveable I paid £50,000 for my motorhome is that cheap?

If that were a valid arguement then FIAT should say on the Tin

"Warning this vehicle may be liable to premature clutch/gearbox failure because it is cheap and badly engineered "

Come on get real

[Guest Peter James]

rupert123 - 2010-04-06 9:38 AM

 

Peter James - 2010-04-06 9:05 AM

 

RoyH - 2010-04-05 9:41 PM

 

Tried to post this 10 minutes ago but it hasn't appeared, so here goes again. I suppose it will be on twice now.

 

It seems maybe, Brian, that Fred knows more that he lets on:

 

Fiat Auto (UK) Ltd Head Office Tel: (01753) 511431 240 Bath Rd, SLOUGH, SL1 4HJ

 

Who is Fred?

 

Or If this is a private joke why post it in a public forum? (?)

 

Fred is a mock Cornish bloke who thinks he is funny, but rarely is, and never has anything usefull to say.

 

Ah, Thanks for the Reply.