Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[Mike88]

I think you will have a long wait. You can complain till the cows come home. But if you insult one of their staff the reply will be instataneous.

[andy mccord]

I have followed this thread for a year now, hoping that eventually a cure would be found so 4 weeks ago I rang to register my judder with Fiat, they gave me a date for my work to be done (partA&B) which I was pleased about, no messing with engine mounts first , then having to go back at a later date for the lower reverse gear and clutch. Well I picked up my van last night from Walton summit trucks, bang on time, not had chance to test it yet , but the chap did say that out of 20 or so mods to vans, only one conmtinued to report a problem with judder, which later turned out to be a faulty clutch.

 

I cannot explain why some people are waiting for lengthy periods before the work is being carried out. But on this occasion fair play to Fiat to the way I have been treated, Although I know this problem should of never occured.

 

Regards

Andy

 

[AndyStothert]

Henry,

This is not, and never has been, a cosy little chat about the merits or otherwise of the Ducato and Boxer.

That could never be the case after Fiat denied there were any problems and declined to do anything about them. From there onwards (before the matter even came to the forums) it was a matter of convincing Fiat that they should accept that there are problems and rectify them.

It became clear, again before bringing this matter to the forums, that the defect was so fundamental to the whole vehicle design that only lost sales could possibly shift Fiat's position.

Every sale we prevent by undermining the reputation of this vehicle is a step closer to achieving that goal, whereas any confusion about the fitness of the vehicle, and creating sufficient doubts (and a feeling that it is matter of luck) then every sale made as result of that confusion is a step backwards.

Now I have tried to explain this concept to you in the past privately, and I thought with some success, but obviously not.

If you were attempting to provide folk with a reasoned and informed opinion to assist in a buying decision then you would be much more precise in the framing of your posts.

So maybe whilst you don't think you are doing any harm there is a fair chance that by encouraging people to buy these vehicles that you are in fact, preventing the rest of us getting a solution to the issues, as every sale counts in the equation which Fiat will be constantly re-calculating.

This is not a cosy little chat on a forum: this is purely about sorting out this mess, and in that context you are either for us or against us.

 

[Guest Tracker]

 

rupert123 - 2009-11-06 9:37 AM

Some on here still scream they would not buy a Fiat, they are people who are not in the market anyway otherwise they would not have much choice. .

 

I can assure you Henry that we do have the cash sitting in the bank and not quite keeping up it's value with real life inflation, as opposed to theoretical inflation, and were - and still could be now - very much in the market for a new van.

 

We prefer to buy Blitish and were seriously looking at a shiny new Autocruise Starburst, having ruled out anything Swift due to what are in my view some truly awful design features and build quality issues, until all this trouble came to light - so we backtracked, found ourselves a nice 56 regd old cab Starburst and pocketed the not inconsiderable difference.

 

We have never in 14000 reliable miles over the last year regretted that decision and the difference remains firmly pocketed. It might yet be used on a new van - but not yet for glaringly obvious reasons.

 

Nobody, I'm sure, begrudges you a 'good 'un' but, with respect, just because you do not have any issues with your one specific van neither should you repeatedly castigate those who choose not to take the risk with how they choose to spend their own money.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ina]

rupert123 - 2009-11-06 9:37 AM

so please read posts properly in future.

 

Some on here still scream they would not buy a Fiat, they are people who are not in the market anyway otherwise they would not have much choice.

 

In response to the above: had you yourself read posts properly, you would have read mine at the bottom of the first page, "screaming" that we would not buy FIAT.

And yes, we ARE in the market and had you read my post, you would have read that I said myself it limits the choice severely.

 

I still maintain that I am not in the habit of gambling with money, I think it would be a serious gamble to purchase one of these vehicles, but good luck to you, as you are very fortunate to have an apparently faultless vehicle.

 

And once again thanks to Andy for all he's done since this started.

 

Ina.

 

 

[Colin9591]

rupert123 - 2009-11-06 9:37 AM

Some on here still scream they would not buy a Fiat, they are people who are not in the market anyway otherwise they would not have much choice.

 

Well, I was going to buy a Fiat, had the design all sorted, money in the bank etc. but thanks to Andy and this forum decided that it would be a risk too far with our hard-earned cash, especially with the disgraceful customer relations exhibited by Fiat.

So, I was in the market, swore that I wouldn't buy a Fiat, made a choice and bought a Renault, with which I am really pleased.

 

Yes, I know I am only one but I'm sure that I'm not alone.

 

Best Regards

[Neil Hunt]

Just have to throw my hat in the ring too, we would have bought a Fiat eighteen months ago when I retired. Abandoned the panel van we had fixed our minds on as no resolution in sight and customer contempt was all that emanated from the Fiat camp.

 

Finally ordered a Peugeot based MH at the NEC and yes I KNOW this is illogical and the next worst thing but have given in to wishful thinking and the little evidence there is that Peugeot may have fitted, as standard, a lower ratio reverse.

 

No manufacturer is going to trumpet a redesign that acknowledges that the prior design was unfit but you would expect, given their skill with weasel words, that some sign would be leaked if there is an 'improved' version in the offing.

 

In the long term it is only better consumer protection laws that will drive improvements in service to customers. Competition of itself will not do this with these huge companies that are approaching monopoly conditions in practice. Good to see BMW withdrawing their fault free, in 'normal' driving, alloy wheels.

[Travelling Tyke]

Hello, well whilst we are happy enough with our van we do expect that some time in the future we may change. Seeing the "New" Fiat when it first arrived on the scene looked good to me and whilst not being a leader with new toys due to expected shakedown problems I did consider that the Fiat was a good thing.

 

Now, however, my view has changed thanks to this forum and the comments placed on it.

 

Yes, we may end up with a Fiat based van, but not for quite a while. There is no rush, we are prepared to wait until there is a good, validated fix. this also applies to any secondhand van we may see. Not good for Fiat, not good for van dealers.

 

My thanks to all for their input, and the forum for allowing it.

 

ps. a question that will remain with me is, "If Fiat do this with their vans, will they do it with their cars?

 

Good day to all and stay safe.

[Mike88]

 

ps. a question that will remain with me is, "If Fiat do this with their vans, will they do it with their cars?

 

They do already. I vowed never to buy a Fiat again after a very bad series of experiences with a Fiat car. And now I've bought a Fiat motorhome. I must be mad!!!!!!

 

The problem is that there are so few alternatives to Fiat in the panel van market that offer an automatic you are virtually forced into buying one. Renault were a possibility but they are due to be discontinued soon.

[Keithl]

Mike88 - 2009-11-06 4:01 PM

 

 

ps. a question that will remain with me is, "If Fiat do this with their vans, will they do it with their cars?

 

They do already. I vowed never to buy a Fiat again after a very bad series of experiences with a Fiat car. And now I've bought a Fiat motorhome. I must be mad!!!!!!

 

After bad experiences of repairing Fiats when I was self employed I vowed never to own one. Imagine my grief then when I found out the new Ford Ka is nothing less than, yes you guessed it, a Bl**** Fiat 500 in disguise! When I asked the Ford dealer to confirm this he said "Yes" and went on to sell me a Fiesta!

 

The selling point when we bought our MH was the Chassis. They had the absolutely identical Fiat (a 2.8JTD) next to it for 2 grand less and guess which we bought.

 

Keith.

[PSHORT]

My future son in law is just about a buy a new van for his business,

he asked me for my advice, another lost sale to FIAT

[chigman]

Between my brother and I, we are respnsible for 5 fiat No sales. I told of my experiences with fiat to a friend who was thinking of getting one and didn't, then I told my brother and he didn't, he got a Merc Sprinter, then he told 3 other guys at his work and they went elsewhere as well. So from treating me badly, they have actually lost five sales :-D It's only what they deserve.

[Mel B]

We have been seriously considering a change of 'van and the choice is somewhat limited, however, if I found a van with the perfect layout for us, the price was right and it was on a Fiat ... would I be tempted, would I????

 

 

......

 

 

 

.....

 

 

 

 

Maybe - but no way would I buy it! 8-)

 

There is a very strong chance that we will be seriously looking to change our van sometime next year but there's simply no way I'm going to risk buying into a load of trouble, not whilst the chance of getting a van with 'judder trouble' is a distinct possibility. I intend to use my van much more, not have it sitting on the drive being unable to use it properly (we too like single track twisty and sloping roads!).

[moyne]

Fiat UK - 2009-11-03 11:36 AM

 

Whilst we welcome all comments, both positive and negative, regarding our processes and products, Fiat Group Automobiles UK Ltd will not condone or tolerate abuse of individuals within our organisation.

 

It must be apparent to all that Fiat Group Automobiles UK Ltd representatives carry out their duties on behalf of the company and in accordance with company policy at all times. Accusations against individuals relating to personal integrity or insincerity are neither appropriate nor relevant.

 

Please be advised that although we continue to applaud the existence of forums whereby our customers can discuss our company, we will take any and all action open to us in defence of our employees.

 

Naturally we can expect the same to apply to your customers ! or is that a step too far !

[moyne]

Thee are two words which sat out for me in the text from Fiat integrity and sincerity, both of which are very inportant in any mans day !

I feel however using words is quite different from putting them into the context to which they deserve. I have found in the last two years the word sincerity totally missing in my dealings with Fait as a motor company, several times they called me from customer care to find out how I was loving my new Fiat and the caller was left with no illusion as to my feelings. Funny not a single response from the company who mention integrity as being a word which they hold dear.

 

Then there was my several calls to Fiat Ireland and my long conversation with the parts manager for Fiat Ireland and my subsequent emails to him, yet again the sincerity and integrity of the company was put into question, as not a single response was received ffrom Fiat. This gentleman, I believe has since retired. So Andy as to what you siad which required censorship I doubt very much if Fiat as a company can sit back and suggest for one minute that they live in a glass house.

 

I am fed up with my vehicle and it's faults I am disgusted with the contempt that has been shown to me and I shall endeavour to insure that my truth is known. I guess its a case of the might being right and if you have a difficulty then your the mug who has handed over your money.

 

I have been forced to go down a road which for me is the very very last recourse. I consider my dealer to be an honourable man who through no fault of his has been put into a position which will effect his business and he is getting absolutley no and I mean zero help from his supplier. The manufactrers of my vehicle have sold me a defective product which is not fit for its purpose and they shall be held accountable.

 

 

 

 

[Autocruising]

I worry for what some owners may have to face. I have the previous model to the 250. A Peugeot 2.2 May 2006. I noted a slight judder in reverse and at 13,500 miles my clutch failed and was found to be a burnt out lump. My problem was that this happened in the middle of France and so I was subject to, Lets rip the tourist off with a 7 day repair and 1,100 Euro bill. So those with the clutch judder I suggest yes you are going to get a big repair bill and probably the same as me once the vehicle is a few months out of warranty. I have been to Peugeot and as expected they just do not want to know. :'(

[AndyStothert]

An interesting comparison of the difference in the way Fiat and Peugeot are treating their customers came to light this last few days.

Firstly I got an all too familiar email from a Fiat owner who has had the modifications done on his 6 speed (2.3 litre engine), found it improved but not solved, told Fiat of hsoi dissatisfaction, and was told that the matter was now closed as far as Fiat are concerned.

Then a Peugeot owner (2.2 litre 6 speed van) sent me copies of the invoices and work sheets for the modifications on his van which amounted to a total of £5100.

Peugeot did the modifications to the gearbox first, but the customer wasn't satisfied, so Peugeot took it in again and fitted a whole new gearbox which has 'improved things no end'.

So why, if Peugeot can now fit a new and obviously different gearbox, are Fiat not able to offer the same level of service?

I shall contact Peugeot next week to see if there is a simple answer. Fiat are still refusing to come up with ANY official statements about anything, despite several requests.

[tonyg3nwl]

AndyStothert - 2009-11-08 11:37 PM

"Peugeot did the modifications to the gearbox first, but the customer wasn't satisfied, so Peugeot took it in again and fitted a whole new gearbox which has 'improved things no end'.

So why, if Peugeot can now fit a new and obviously different gearbox, ....."

 

Unfortunately Andy, mine has had the same treatment, but the judder has in fact got a bit worse in that there is some first gear judder now as well.

 

The good news is that a 'specialist expert ' is due to visit the dealership in the next few days to examine the van and decide what if anything is wrong, and what they can do to fix it.

 

tonyg3nwl

[euroserv]

Unfortunately the Peugeot 2.2 6 speed and Fiat 2.3 6 speed boxes are different, so I can only tell you about the Fiat situation. We only have access to the Fiat parts disc.

 

I have noticed that on a recent edition of the disc the part number for the 2.3 6 speed gearbox has changed. The modifications to gear ratios that have been trialled seem to have been incorporated in vehicles built after January 2009. Also if you want to purchase a new or reconditioned gearbox, the old version is no longer available.

 

How does this help?

 

I think that if any owner that has a vehicle that they believe was built on a new chassis after January 2009 (not bodywork, but chassis) I should be able to tell which gearbox it has. If you PM the chassis number to me I will look for you.

 

I have thought about this long and hard and don't want to cause any distress to owners, so I will not be giving details to the forum, just individuals. I should over time be able to determine a fairly accurate break point in chassis numbers that prospective purchasers can look out for but I am aware that this could be very contentious and raise fears regarding resale values; It could even encourage Fiat to make sure that all affected vehicles are repaired.

 

I will let my peers decide what they want me to do with this information, or indeed whether they want me to interfere at all. These are your vehicles, not mine and I only wish to help where help is wanted.

 

Nick

[colinfrier]

Thanks for that euroserve.

Does this mean that the current production is the same as the full mods now being carried out or something else again?

[euroserv]

I am only sure about the gearbox at the moment, if someone could send me a list of part numbers being fitted for the mountings and dampers I will have a look. Sorry I have lost my list from months ago.

 

Nick

[AndyStothert]

Nick.

I do know that since January 2009 the gearbox has incorporated the slave cylinder damper into the casing, and not attached to the pipe as on the modifications.

But I equally know that the gearbox supplied brand new, straight from the factory, for our van in April 2009 (with the damper incorporated into the casing) had to be fitted with the replacement lower ratio reverse gear kit.

Will there be a recognisable part number stamped of my gearbox, so that we may then have a better idea of whether another gearbox, with the lower ratio, has been introduced?

Fiat certainly have no intention of making life easier for current or potentially new owners, so it seems that we may have to find the definitive anwers for ourselves.

I do know that a brand new Fiat 2.3 litre van I drove a few weeks ago still had the offending gear ratio, and whilst none of us know how big the stocks are it is definitely not easy to get a new Ducato at the moment as production was halted for several months earlier this year to allow stocks (and costs) to drop.

So can I find a part number on the box? Bearing in mind that I'm blind and arthritic.

[bobalobs]

At the Shepton show I was told that the modified 2.3 gearbox had been fitted on the production line since the return from the summer break and these vans are to be with the converters by Nov/Dec. I have been promised a testdrive as soon as my proposed converter has one. I am still waiting but will let you know when it happens.I still fear not much will happen until the Euro 5 engine is introduced.

[euroserv]

As far as i can tell any replacement gearboxes up until about April 2009 would have been to the original spec and would have needed modifications. We had an early box out today and I forgot to look for part numbers but we have another one to remove on Thursday so I will have more details on where the numbers are located.

 

The original clutch slave cylinder has proven to be quite feeble, but no more so than the Mercedes and Ford vehicles that we also work on, so any improvement in that area would be welcome. They are inside the gearbox which necessitates removal and generally replacement of the clutch is advisable while the box is off.

 

The clutch damper mod was incredibly expensive and I seriously doubt whether it had any beneficial effect so I expect the updated slave cylinder is just a more robust unit and not incorporating the modifications. Officially there have been no changes to the slave cylinder since October 2007 but the part numbers have changed 3 times which could be due to many reasons but not a supplier change as they have always been made by Valeo. All versions supercede to the one most recent number.

 

I would not hold out much hope of a revised gearbox for Euro 5 either. I suspect that the upgrades already incorporated since Jan 09 will be continued as they seem to be doing the job. If the 2.3 engine continues through Euro 5 (and it looks like it will now) there will be few changes to the engine or gearbox since it is already one of the cleanest engines out there. Even Euro 6 should be acheivable with the Mulit-air modifications that Fiat are working on whereas most other manufacturers are going back to the drawing board. The 2.2 Peugeot/Ford engine for instance will require an additive sprayed into the catalytic converter to acheive Euro 5 never mind Euro 6 as will Mercedes and Renault's proposed engines.

 

I got my new parts disc this afternoon and it now shows that there are two different part numbers for before and after April 2009. There are loads of different boxes for different gear ratios and weights but all of them have an alternate number. In all cases, If you try to get a price for the early box, it is superceded by the later number anyway. So any replacement gearboxes will now be coming with the mods incorporated.

 

If anyone is interested the replacement boxes are around £1450 plus Vat on an exchange basis and it takes about 7 hours to replace one. This is for the 2.3 6 speed.

 

I can also confirm that there are also revised gearboxes for the 2.2 5 speed engines also dated April 2009 with the older boxes also superceded and not available. It will take some time to study exactly what has changed but it is described as "lowering rev gear ratio".

 

There are still no mods for the 3.0 engine at all.

 

I hope this gives the more technically orientated contributors the data that they crave, but more than that it proves that this forum and Andy's persistence are bearing fruit. I am certain that none of the modifications now being incorporated would have been considered were it not for this and the preceeding threads.

 

If anyone has a chassis number for a vehicle built this year after April whether it has a fault or not please PM me so I can see how helpful this information will be in the future. I will not divulge any details of your vehcle to anyone else. Thanks

 

Nick

[Colin Leake]

It's worth remembering that the Salesman who assured you there were no problems with gearboxes is the same one who, a few years down the line, when you are looking for a part exchange deal will be sucking the air in through his teeth and explaining that the value of your van is depressed because of the said problems!

 

One salesman at the NEC assured me that there where no problems with the 3l engine. When I explained that one of his own customers had pitched next to us at Cromer with just such a problem he smoothly changed tack to the problem being very rear!

 

I can sympathise with dealers who have no alternative to offer and have to make a living but s straight lie to someone who is intending to spend £65,000 of their hard earned dosh is taking things a bit to far.