meander Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 In March this year I bought a new Fiat based Bessacarr and soon discovered the juddering problem and it was not until June when I met Andy Stothert at Edinburgh that I realised that I was not the only one with the problem and Andy advised me to register the complaint with Fiat and on 5th of August I registered my concerns with them. By return of post I received a letter from Sue O'Riordan, Customer Relations Executive at Fiat Group Uk in Slough inviting me to telephone her to discuss my complaint. This I did and she informed me that I would be contacted by my local Fiat workshop for 'modifications to be carried out'. On 28th September I took 'Bessie' to Haynes Trucks, Maidstone, Kent, where I was told that the vehicle was booked in for Modifications 'A' and 'B' to be carried out i.e new engine mountings and a new lower reverse gear. A week later I picked 'Bessie' up and since have carried out extensive tests reversing her up inclines with absolutely no judder. In fact I can now completely release my foot from the clutch pedal on 'take off' and reverse slowly on gas pedal only, before it was necessary to continuously slip the clutch. Since the modifications were carried out Fiat have phoned me twice to ensure I am satisfied with their customer service and whilst speaking to them I asked why my 'mods' were carried out immediately when I knew that many owners were dissatisfied with the service, or should I say lack of service, they were getting from Fiat. The answer I was given was that all new complaints were being dealt with first in strict order and that all 'old' complaints were being dealt with separately by another department (I was unable to ascertain why and by whom) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Nick thanks for the info with regard to the ability of the 2.3 6 speed to comply with Euro 5 and beyond. Is the 3 litre equally compatible for if not what hope is there of Fiat spending any money on resolving current 3 litre owners gearbox/clutch problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Sorry if this post is slightly off topic, but all this talk of 'Euro 4/5/6' I find slightly alarming, Motorhomes are NOT (as a rule)' high mileage sell them after a couple of years' type of vehicles . They often have a useful life of upto 20 years sometimes longer, and even then only acheive mileages up to 6 figures. So why should they be judged alongside very high mileage commercial vehicles and suffer penalties associated with them ( the London Emission Zone and many more in Germany). I find this Trend worrying for the future of motorhome use as more 'enviromental' restrictions (taxes !) are imposed. Can anyone explain to me how come the 'Comfortomatic' 3 litre Fiats are NOT affected by this problem ? are the ratio's in the box differant ? is the (auto) clutch 'beefier' than the standard 3 litre one ? Or is the fault just taking longer to show up ? as it's not a conventional Torque converter box, I find it hard to see 'whats differant' from the manual (in terms of 'failing components' any ideas, 'Out there' ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Rayjsj is asking the question that I was asking before our recent trip to France, but I cannot see if it was answered as the thread seems to have been pulled. If the 3-litre manual and auto have the same gearbox, then why does the auto not judder? Is it because the auto box is better at slipping the clutch than a human operator? If it is because the auto box is better, then it implies that a heavy van will mean a short life for the clutch, as it must be getting pretty hot, due to the high reverse gear meaning lots of slip for a smooth slow reverse manoeuvre. It's a bit controversial, but the above does imply that the judder is (at least in part) caused by driver error. If the auto can do it and the manual cannot, what does that tell you about the driver? Or am I missing something? :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Oooh, this will be controversial! The 3.0 manual and comfort-matic use exactly the same gearbox and clutch the only difference being that there is a load of hydraulic gubbins controlling the operation of the clutch and a computer that is probably more powerful than the entire mission control at NASA during the Apollo missions. Purely and simply it is not nescessarily 'cleverer' than you but it can monitor loads, accelerator position and gradients much faster than you can and make very small adjustments very quickly. If for instance it found itself slipping too much it would either fully engage or disengage the clutch almost instantly while reducing or increasing the engine revs to smooth this out. I don't think there is any reason to suspect that there will be any premature wear issues, in fact I am banking on the removal of driver abuse or error being ruled out and extending the life of the clutch considerably. After a few initial gremlins were ironed out the earlier 'Agile' system fitted to the Iveco Daily has been very reliable and is still offered on both 2.3 and 3.0 engines so if the comfort-matic proves popular I would expect to see that on 2.3 Fiats later. Incidentally, Fiat group company Iveco is offering the 3.0 at Euro 5 with additives to the exhaust process on chassis over 3.5T and without additives on chassis under 3.5T so it is reasonable to expect that Fiat will continue with this engine also and they would be daft not to. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Nick Thanks for your clarification. We have a Yaris with the MMT gearbox (sounds similar to the Comfortmatic) and that does operate very smoothly indeed in both 1st gear and reverse. So far we have had it for just over 3 years and the clutch is OK and that is even with us living on a very steep hill and having to reverse out every time we use the car. So perhaps the Comfortmatic is the way to go (provided that you trust Fiat enough to honour any future claims). Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 We met someone who had suffered with a burnt out clutch on a 3L with a comformatic gear box on holiday in the summer. At one point accroding to them Fait told them it was due to the driver! There are also mixed reports on how easy or not it is to get a motorhome up onto leveling blocks with said gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Colin Leake - 2009-11-11 2:54 PM We met someone who had suffered with a burnt out clutch on a 3L with a comformatic gear box on holiday in the summer. At one point accroding to them Fait told them it was due to the driver! There are also mixed reports on how easy or not it is to get a motorhome up onto leveling blocks with said gearbox. The above seems to have put the myth to bed that Comformatic transmissions are trouble free. Only time will tell and I'm sure more will follow, it's certainly not driver error. If that gearbox has similar ratios to the manual versions more clutches are going to be cooked, the only difference being the manual ones will last a little longer due to the physical control of the clutch. What must be taken into consideration is the shear power output of the 3ltr engine which is designed to power 6ton plus commercial vehicles and for that reason can in some cases override the high ratio reverse gear but only until the clutch cooks itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSHORT Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 rolandrat - 2009-11-11 3:56 PM Colin Leake - 2009-11-11 2:54 PM We met someone who had suffered with a burnt out clutch on a 3L with a comformatic gear box on holiday in the summer. At one point accroding to them Fait told them it was due to the driver! There are also mixed reports on how easy or not it is to get a motorhome up onto leveling blocks with said gearbox. The above seems to have put the myth to bed that Comformatic transmissions are trouble free. Only time will tell and I'm sure more will follow, it's certainly not driver error. If that gearbox has similar ratios to the manual versions more clutches are going to be cooked, the only difference being the manual ones will last a little longer due to the physical control of the clutch. What must be taken into consideration is the shear power output of the 3ltr engine which is designed to power 6ton plus commercial vehicles and for that reason can in some cases override the high ratio reverse gear but only until the clutch cooks itself. I must admit this makes sense, I have for some time(since smoking clutch showed itself) dropped a gear in my 3litre when I thought the torque may be too much for the clutch Fiat have fitted. to this model, and my unit is only a panel van conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I think we need more evidence before condemning the Comfortmatic. I always treat "I spoke to somebody posts" (sorry!!!!)with a degree of caution. Having said that, given the previous posts, there does seem some logic in the possibility of clutch issues with the Comfortmatic given the power of the engine and the nature of the gearbox. Are there any Comfortmatic owners out there who have had clutch problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I do believe that even a highly automated clutch like comfort matic could be destroyed by the more determined driver. I would treat that as an isolated incident and possibly as a faulty clutch (which can happen) and a dealer that did not have the necessary customer care skills to see it as that. The quotation did state that the dealer/Fiat tried to suggest that it was driver error but I strongly suspect that the outcome was a free repair. Until someone we know has a problem I think this is best treated with a pinch of salt. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 My vehicle still sits and the silence is deafening ! If I had wanted to buy an 85k vehicle to decorate the side of my house I am sure someone would question my sanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 The owner in question did indeed tell me that when Fait realized it was an auto they did agree to and carry out a free repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Quite right too ! when you pay all that extra money for an 'Auto' gearbox you (I) wouldn't expect to have to pay for a 'Burnt out clutch/DMF ' with all that computer power and associated engineering. An 'Auto' gearbox surely means that ' driver skill failure' can not be used as an excuse for not Honouring the warranty. ;-) Bump ! Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Perhaps today was the wrong day to have picked up my m/h having had the mod. 2 carried out! Firstly, on the way back home I was aware of the very different clutch pedal action, smoother but picked up right at the bottom. I tried some reversing on a slight incline, (probably more than in the previous 2 years) and found it to be just as bad, possibly worse! Whilst on the drive I started to hear a rattle/tincle - noise when ticking over, why me? I phoned the garage and returned immediatly, I was greeted by the Fiat trained technician (said so on his overalls) with a smile on his face he said that most made that sound. " it was due to the new big reverse cog and an existing small bearing" something like that. On depressing the clutch it stopped. "nothing to worry about, bring it back if your not happy" Driving back home I got used to the clutch action BUT noticed the noise even in gear. The plan to SORN it at the end of Nov. and Croaita next May seem very optimistic now, one thing for sure I will be contacting Fiat, or will I have to? Point is, have other owners had a noise??? chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raindrop Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Following this Fiat /Peugeot forum over the years I have come to the conclusion that this type of gearbox was designed to be driven by a computer only, and not a human being, (hence the recent and very interesting input here). It would therefore follow to be a reasonable comment from Fiat to use the term ‘driver error’. Unfortunately Fiat sitting in their ‘golden offices of design’ never realised that humans are the ones that actually do the driving and not computers. In days of old one had to manufacture items to be ‘soldier proof’ in other words to accept any rough abuse and yet survive. Some owners say they have no problems; do these owners therefore have a ‘computer brain’? It seems that some do and are able to reverse with no problems. What does that say about the large number of vehicles that have gear box problems? It really says that Fiat underestimated their design team, who forgot to add the following information to their sales literature. "These gearboxes should be used by computers only, not fit for humans" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 From what I was told directly by an owner it seems that even the computers can cook the clutches on the 3L engine. It's all very frustrating because what we whould realy like to buy is another Rapido or maybe a Frankia that has taken our fancy with a 3L manual engine. At the moment we will just have to keep our present Rapido untill Fait can convince us that the problem is solved. We may settle for a 2.3 placing an order in October for delivery in 2011 on the understanding that we will want to test the vehicle in reverse on a suitable local hill before accepting delivery! Or for any other gearbox problesm for that matter. It does seem probable that Fait have solved the problems with the 2.3. If so why don't they issue a statement giving details of all the considerable modifications that are now said to be incorporated in the new product now coming off the production lines. I realy can't understand why they have not already done so given he need to restore general confidence in their product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 As I understand it there is not much point testing a vehicle on the dealer's forecourt as the symptoms of judder appear mostly when fully loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I would not do it on his forecourt I would take it to s suitably steep hill but you have a point I would need to make sure it was loaded. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Mike88 - 2009-11-14 9:34 AM As I understand it there is not much point testing a vehicle on the dealer's forecourt as the symptoms of judder appear mostly when fully loaded. Do not see this would make much differance. Andy, who was one of the first to shout about this, has a small van around 3000kg, the 2.3 engine goes into vans up to around 4500kg so a small van fully loaded will still be lighter than a heavy van empty. As has been said on numerous occasions it is the to high gear that stops you reversing at a slow speed with the clutch fully out, that is the problem. Their does not seem to be any evidence that the heavy vans suffer any more than light ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 :-D I collected my Motorhome from Border Cars of Dumfries on Friday , I took it into them on Monday for the Phase two Modificiation, they phoned me on Thursday Afternoon to tell me it was ready, I thought it would have taken longer with my M/H being an "A "type and restricted access into the engine compartment from under the bonnet ( I know most work is done from below),Border Car,s have been Informative and very courtious throught my dealings with them, on my return journey home I had a opportunity to test out the new lower reverse gearing ,on meeting an oncoming car in the lane near my home it was easier for me to reverse up into a side road with quiet an incline than it was for the car driver to reverse some 150 +yards to allow me to pass,In my Motorhome with Clutch fully disengaged I reversed up the incline it felt a lot slower than before and with somewhat greatly reduced Vibration,it felt more like the vehicle should have felt like from day one. The Motorhome is now more managable in reverse and I feel like I am Now fully in control of it when reversing, (still wouldnt buy another one) But My thanks to Border Cars of Dumfries ,but a big Heart Felt Thanks to ANDY STOTHERT, without Whom I dont think this fix would Have occured, its not the full solution but it make life a hell of a lot better, Thanks Andy thanks border cars,...... oh and fiat :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 hi Corky im glad to hear that you have finally got your van sorted out, its taken some time. happy travels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 aljen - 2009-11-14 4:01 PM hi Corky im glad to hear that you have finally got your van sorted out, its taken some time. happy travels :-D Thanks Alan and Jen, yes its took some time a year in all , now we can do some serious motoring, call in if your passing ,Safe Journey,s Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 hi Dennis We are going down to Lidalia in Newcastleton on the other side of the M74 form you at the New Year, usually spend a week there enjoying a good walk. Come up to the north and try out some of our hills, that will give your gearbox a good trial. At last you can now go out and about again and enjoy the van without all the worries of being stranded Alan&Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 With reference to the post by Chris about the rattling noise in the gearbox after the modifications had been done, the technician is most likely talking through his lower orifice, as this is undoubtedly the idler gears 'chattering'. It was probably there before the mods were done, but just wasn't noticed, and it does tend to get slighly noisier after making it work hard (lots of uphill or motorway stuff). Most of you will know that ours is now on its 4th gearbox, with gearboxes numbers 2 and 3 being changed because of the noisy idler gear. The really silly thing is that Fiat, who supposedly tested the Ducato over 93 trillion miles (all forwards) hadn't a clue about this 'characteristic' until they had changed my box, and the new one was exactly the same. They then scratched their heads a lot and rang the technical people in Italy. After listening to load of them since it seems that most of them do it, and having now done a further 6000 miles since the last exchange of boxes with no worsening of the idler gear chatter, it seems that this particular characteristic may be a harmless one. There was a post stating that they thought that Fiat had now sorted out the issues on the 2.3 litre versions, but I don't think that is actually the case. I think (but nobody knows except Fiat) that they are now selling them with the engine mounting and clutch mods in place but not the lower ratio reverse gear - which they will change if the customer spots the problem and complains. The reason I suspect this is because I drove a brand new Ducato van last week and the reverse gear ratio was certainly a bit higher than our modified one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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