bazooka Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Whats going to happen to second hand values will dealers be willing to give a cast iron guarentee to sort out any future problems or are dealers forcourts going to be full of used fiats they can't sell ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 bazooka - 2009-11-15 9:47 AM Whats going to happen to second hand values will dealers be willing to give a cast iron guarentee to sort out any future problems or are dealers forcourts going to be full of used fiats they can't sell ? not a cat in hells chance, they will of course tell you that this particular vehicle didnt have any problems, then pray that you dont notice til you try it out, by this time your wallet may be empty and when you go back with a problem, they will blame Fiat and tell you that its up to you to get things sorted with them. Most will be just coming to warranty expired date, so they just will not care Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Andy, thanks a lot for your interpretation of the possible cause. I thought I was a one off, after all there must be 100's of mod. 2's carried out on m/h's and nobody could be bothered to offer a "yes or no" to the rattle. Do you have noise or not? Can it be stopped, will it create problems in the future? I need to be talking to Fiat tomorrow and it would be helpful to have some ammunition, am I the "one off" or are there more. Come on ,stick together the war is not won yet. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moyne Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Many years ago a car manufacturer in the US found that on front impact that the design of the vehicle allowed hot brake fluid to spray directly onto the exhaust manifold which naturally then caused a fire and after several deaths an individual decided that enough was enough a took on this giant. It was proved that they knew that the fault existed but the cost of re design was more than frying a few motorists. The manufacturer knew there was a problem but to ammend was going to cost too much so they were willing to sacrafice a few customers for the benifit of profit. Kinda like the guy in Detroit whom has his patent stolen by another manufacturing Giant. So the story of client and manufacturer continues into the 21st century and the story remains the same profit at all cost if your not happy at least we have your money ! I remember someone saying one time that silence was golden ! Well, I have nothing to report on my 3litre which adorns my driveway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I was told at the NEC that all new production coming off the line now had all the mods including the slightly lower rear gear ratio. I kind of am inclined to believe this since it would presumidly cost very little extra and be much more cost effective than having to modify gearboxes later on. How well this cures the problem remains to be seen but it should at the very least nimprove it. The real problem now is that we still don't know what is going on for certain. This problem will remain as an uncertainty untill Fait issue a statement through the magazines telling us clearly what the mods are, confirming they are indeed incorporated into new production and most important how we can tell if we have or are buying a "new" chassis. I would still like to change as we have our eyes on a new Frankia but we won't untill we are confident that the problems have been solved. Our 4 year old Rapido is like new and if we have to I see no problem keeping ti for another few years or as long as it takes. It just means the dosh in the banks will keep growing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Colin Leake - 2009-11-16 10:14 AM ........... It just means the dosh in the banks will keep growing. Apologies for the off topic, but which bank is that?? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Chris, I've had the two-part work done and I have no gear noise. The new clutch feels different and I haven't made my mind up whether it's simply bedding in or I'm not giving it enough welly. Either way, it vibrates as I pull away in first. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Shaun Just had the m/h on tick over for 20mins., because of its elevated position I'm able to stick my head under and get close to the gearbox, there is certainly a "rumble" nothing as bad as when it had been on the road being hill tested. Measured the "hills" (road outside) 1in13 where original vibration was felt and 1in10/1in8 after mod. 2. Hardly Andy type "hills". Having still got the judder plus a noisy gearbox, who the hell is going to buy it off me? the only real solution is a new gearbox "the one with the right reverse gearing" Holidays, forget them!! chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I've had the 'B' mod done, clutch is a little heaver and very slightly fiercer, have done a trip of 300 miles no gear noise. Tried reversing onto ramps on the drive it went up so smoothly I went right over the top of them & nearly through the garage door. I am waiting on confirmation of exactly what was done, I was under the impression that it was just gearbox mod, new clutch & clutch damper, I do wonder if a software update was done as it appears to have a lot more torque seems to fly up hills in high gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I have to wonder whether gear noise in some replacement gear trains but not others is due to some gears meshing better than others and/or the presence or not - if indeed it needs them - the correct spacers and/or shims to remove any excess end float, particularly from idler gears? Always assuming they put the right oil to the right level in the rebuilt gearbox? This maybe mechanic or training related as some mechanics are better than others. If it is much noisier than before complain, complain and complain again - although given Fiat's record I doubt you will get anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Sorry double posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Fait Finance Inc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Brian Kirby - 2009-11-16 1:26 PMColin Leake - 2009-11-16 10:14 AM ........... It just means the dosh in the banks will keep growing. Apologies for the off topic, but which bank is that?? :-)Fiat Finance Inc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I think it is the idler gears, the garage use the same mechanic (I thought that was a good idea) BUT the garage Fiat technician suggested that most mod 2's did it. Maybe confirming a few of Trackers thoughts!! chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 For the benefit of Chris and others who start hearing the idler gears 'chattering' (it's actually more like a light knock) our van has had TWO replacement gearboxes because of this fault and neither of these gearboxes had been subject to any modifications. They were both brand new (after the original was damaged reversing up a hill) and it seems that the mechanic is just trying it on with yet another fob-off line off the top of his head. That said ours did a few miles (about 8000 I think) after Fiat decided to change the box yet again (we agreed to wait until the modifications were ready before another change) and the noise didn't get any worse during that time. The new box also has the same feature, but it is much less evident. I'd complain like hell, but not lose any sleep over it. And with reference to the Ford v Fiat debate (another thread, which I'm too lazy to add to because of my dubious typing skills) our van in now on gearbox number 4, but only one was replaced because of the reversing problem. Henry is almost right (for once) when he says folk should get on with using them whilst the issues are resolved as in the very worst case scenario the gearbox damage to the 2.3 litre models seems restricted to the synchro ring on second gear, and the van is still functioning after the damage has occurred. The 2.3 litre models (before modification) do seem to have quite a tough and relaible clutch, so that shouldn't be an issue as forewarned is forearmed, so you just avoid abusing it. The 3 litre models are slightly different, as the clutch isn't quite so tough. And, knowing what I know now, would I have bought the Fiat? No way, but it wouldn't have been a Ford either. I would have got a Renault. But life isn't like that, and we have the Fiat, and it still has the same qualities which I chose it for, and every time I drive it I almost forgive it for its one considerable fault. But Fiat, the company? What a shower of dishonest incompetent idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Yes, use them, but do not abuse them. The most obvious consequence of not driving them, would be to postpone any potential damage due to the judder fault until after the warranty has expired. Then try proving the damage was a consequence of the judder! Drive them to the maximum possible within the warranty period, and do not feather bed, nor shield, the mechanicals from normal use. These are vehicles that are sold as commercial vans, fit for 100,000 plus mile per year lives. You will not come close to commercial van mileages with a motorhome, so there is no danger of being told you have exceeded a reasonable mileage as a reason for rejecting a warranty claim. Failure to use the van, however, might result in you being told that lack of use has exacerbated a problem.The only exception to the above would be where you are seeking legal rejection of the vehicle, in which case continued use could be argued to constitute acceptance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 What do you mean for once Andy. I am always right as I am sure all others on here are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-11-17 1:25 PM For the benefit of Chris and others who start hearing the idler gears 'chattering' (it's actually more like a light knock) our van has had TWO replacement gearboxes because of this fault and neither of these gearboxes had been subject to any modifications. They were both brand new (after the original was damaged reversing up a hill) and it seems that the mechanic is just trying it on with yet another fob-off line off the top of his head. That said ours did a few miles (about 8000 I think) after Fiat decided to change the box yet again (we agreed to wait until the modifications were ready before another change) and the noise didn't get any worse during that time. The new box also has the same feature, but it is much less evident. I'd complain like hell, but not lose any sleep over it. And with reference to the Ford v Fiat debate (another thread, which I'm too lazy to add to because of my dubious typing skills) our van in now on gearbox number 4, but only one was replaced because of the reversing problem. Henry is almost right (for once) when he says folk should get on with using them whilst the issues are resolved as in the very worst case scenario the gearbox damage to the 2.3 litre models seems restricted to the synchro ring on second gear, and the van is still functioning after the damage has occurred. The 2.3 litre models (before modification) do seem to have quite a tough and relaible clutch, so that shouldn't be an issue as forewarned is forearmed, so you just avoid abusing it. The 3 litre models are slightly different, as the clutch isn't quite so tough. And, knowing what I know now, would I have bought the Fiat? No way, but it wouldn't have been a Ford either. I would have got a Renault. But life isn't like that, and we have the Fiat, and it still has the same qualities which I chose it for, and every time I drive it I almost forgive it for its one considerable fault. But Fiat, the company? What a shower of dishonest incompetent idiots. Careful Andy watch the last paragraph! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davethevibes Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 As it's my first posting can I come in on this with a note of satisfaction. My Swift Ace 680FB was new in April 2008 and at the very first drive I noticed a big thump when the engine was started whilst warm. This was mentioned to the dealer (Webbs) and when, soon afterwards, reverse gear judder became a commonplace experience amongst Ducatoo 130 owners I put everything into writing to Webbs and then, later, to Fiat UK. The judder on mine was never severe but the thump was worrying. In July Fiat asked me to take my van to Essanjay, Poole, where it was given new engine mountings. The change was immediate. Even as I drove away in forward gear it felt tighter and more responsive. I have never had a start-up thump nor a trace of judder since then and have done 2k miles since and now total 11k. . I'm no newcomer. This is my 11th van and I'm a retired motoring journalist (but not a mechanic). In 2002 I had a new Autosleeper Amethyst on a lwb Transit which had the most appalling judder (amongst many,many other faults) and before I got rid of it had two back axles, two clutches and flywheels and even a replaced gearbox main bearing. It still juddered and the clutch burned even reversing up my short 5m slight incline of a drive. Don't go berserk about Fiat. As far as I'm concerned they were late in acting but they have acted and it's good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Hi Dave. The one thing that worried (and I DO worry) me least was the bump, engine swinging back and forth on the upper mounts, bit like the 1960's mini. Not terminal really but yes better it was sorted I agree. 2k miles FORWARD doesn't pose me a problem after modifications (apart from idler gear noise!) but do you reverse up the same drive. If you do and have no vibration then great because that's all I want. MR FIAT. chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I am sure it must of been discussed before and I should know the answer but what is the "special motorhome gearbox" referred to as a selling feature in the Fiat advert? Is it only fitted to the chassis/cab conversions and I will not have one on a panel van conversion even if it is a 3 litre? I assume it only alters the forward gear ratios and does not alter the reverse ratio? And if it does in what way? Does the final drive ratio remain the same? Advice from the knowledgable will be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I was under the impression that the 'special Motorhome gearbox' is only fitted to the 'Camping Car Chassis' a lot of converters use the cheaper standard chassis/cab. Our van is on the 'Camping Car Chassis' the gear ratios are perfect for a 3500kg van, not been able to find out what the ratios are. Another advantage/disadvantage of this chassis is the lower chassis combined with wider rear track & larger anti-roll bars gives superb handling at the cost of very low ground clearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I've no idea what the 'special campervan gearbox' is, but as 2.2, 2.3 and 3.0 all have completly different setups then not all will get one. PVC's are perfectly happy going forward with a standard box so I'm not sure what benifits if any you might get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 If I recall correctly I believed the 'special gearbox' was the comfortmatic which was developed and tweeked for Motorhome use. I may be wrong but many of the x 1000a of developement miles don on 'Mules' was with the comfortmatic an not the stamdard gearboxes. Maybe Fiat would care to post and clarify. The advert is actually very misleading in my view. edit - typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Those of you who have had the lower reverse ratio mod done might like to glance underneath and check for oil leaks coming from the end of the gearbox. My fix was done in March (7000 miles ago) and last week I noticed a very small oil leak coming from the tin plate at the end of the gearbox. This has now been cured by my dealer. This plate is fairly thin and when it is removed, because of the stiction from the gasket compound, there is a possibility that the effort needed to remove the plate can bend it. This will inevitably make it more difficult to successfully re-seal the joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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