Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[radio57world]

Well i would like to thank everyone who has persisted with this thread

over the past months, I will tell you my findings with my autotrail tracker bought in 2007 now done 20,000 miles always had problem reversing up steep hills with reverse gears being to high i must say i have found fiat very helpfull all times, had first option done

engine mounts this was a little better but not good. fiat phoned me 2weeks after to see how it was and offered full fix new gear and clutch

......Just went to fetch it home and now i have oil pouring out of clutch

housing after being in garage for 3 days its back at the garage waiting again i now wished i had put up with judder and never ever seen or heard of Fiat Motors

[Rayjsj]

This Is a newly designed Multi-Purpose vehicle built by a Multi-national Company in a state of the art factory, No-One repeat No-One should have to ' Put up the judder' and all it's potential damage and early failure of components in the 21st century. The Gearbox designer made a mistake, the resulting mistake was not corrected or discovered on testing, or someone decided (wrongly) that it wouldn't matter (it Does) at let it 'Go through' to production. An even Bigger and more unforgivable mistake.

Now the Customer is suffering the consequences of all these mistakes.

Are Fiat being vilified or suffering catastophic loss of sales because of these damaging mistakes ? NO ! are Motorcaravan Converter's deserting them because they are 'Suspect vehicles' ? No ! Why NOT ? They appear to be getting an increasing monopoly in the motorhome market, WHY ?

Because they are cheap ? The vehicle is pleasant to drive and the Panel vans are a good shape and size for conversion. But until this 'Mistake'

is more publically aired and admitted and Customers of new and now used

and uwarranted vehicles are happy. I and I suspect hundreds of other potential customers will NOT be buying an X250 based Leisure Vehicle At ANY price. Ray :-(

[bobalobs]

I totally agree Brambles an explanation from Fiat will help as it is clear that others are puzzled. If your recollection is correct the comformatic on the motorhome chassis cab will have to be different from the comfomatic 3 litre panel van as otherwise it is not special.

[mike 202]

Rayjsj - 2009-11-19 3:36 PM

 

I and I suspect hundreds of other potential customers will NOT be buying an X250 based Leisure Vehicle At ANY price. Ray :-(

 

Forget your X250's, I recommended and my daughter agreed that buying any Fiat product would be a mistake, so she has knocked the Fiat 500 from her shopping list even though she loves the shape.

Me I sold my 3 month old Swift/Fiat and bought Ford, and yes I am happy now.

[AndyStothert]

My understanding from a senior manager at Fiat quite some time ago re 'the special motorhome gearbox' is that this was purely a marketing term and was actually thought up to try and deflect the commercial world away from the problem - as just about everybody in the commercial sector had heard about the fuss being kicked up in the motorhome world.

There is no special motorhome chassis, no special gearbox, nor a 'cheap' commercial version either. Again it's all marketing blurb - the lowline chassis is available as a special order for any application.

 

Do people really believe what they read in adverts? Fiat adverts?

And I've had an email today from one of our malcontents who has decided that enough is enough and is trading it in. The dealer asked if it had had the modications and apparently is offering less for those which haven't.

Unfortunately we have some problems naming names on the forum.

[Bazza454]

AndyStothert - 2009-11-19 10:58 PM  The dealer asked if it had had the modications and apparently is offering less for those which haven't. Unfortunately we have some problems naming names on the forum.

I would guess that most, if not all dealers have already jumped onto this one.

So if I go into a dealer and try to negotiate a deal on a new Fiat and ask about the reverse problem, the dealer will probably say that there isn't a problem and that it has all been over hyped by the media, yet if I take a used X250 Fiat into the same dealer, if it's not had the modifications done, he will offer me less because of the problem that he has already said doesn't exist.

All I can suggest is that anyone seriously contemplating buying a Fiat should take into account this additional hit on residual values that the dealers will no doubt apply when they are working out the financials.  

[Brian Kirby]

AndyStothert - 2009-11-19 10:58 PM ........ There is no special motorhome chassis, no special gearbox, nor a 'cheap' commercial version either. ...........

When deciding whether something you have purchased is as described, you are entitled to take into account advertising claims made by the trader or the producer.  If it is not as described, you are entitled to require it is brought into conformity or, if conformity cannot be achieved, you can seek compensation or rescission of the contract.  Manufacturers can no longer just walk away from their marketing blurb.

[Lord Raindrop]

When considering the sale of your own Fiat Motor caravan, first go to the dealer and discuss purchasing one, if he refuses to acknowledge the present problems and is anxious to sell and visualises no problems, then return next day with your own Fiat Motor caravan, making sure it’s the same salesman. It should add to your bargaining powers.

[Mike88]

If an advert is blatently untrue then a complaint could be made to the Advertising Standards Authority. I've got a feeling that someone on here (or elsewhere) has made such a complaint but got nowhere.

[rowley]

Brian, I don't think that the adverts mention anything about going backwards!

I recently sold my Twin to a dealer and he did not ask about the judder. I hope that my new motorhome will have been modified. (Citroen Relay)

[tonyg3nwl]

"

 

The good news is that a 'specialist expert ' is due to visit the dealership in the next few days to examine the van and decide what if anything is wrong, and what they can do to fix it.

 

tonyg3nwl

"

 

Hi, The 'expert' came down from Coventry on Wednesday, and I took him round to my local test slope and demonstrated the vibration problem to him. ( I use the term vibration, rather than judder for good reason)

 

The expert agreed that vibration existed when reversing, and asked to be permitted to drive himself. He did the same manouvering on the same

slope with the same results, and then demonstrated that by increasing engine revs to around 1300, he could drive through the vibration and it quietened down.

 

He claimed that the vibration being present was NOT the "judder" that others have been experiencing, and was in his view unlikely to cause clutch or gearbox problems. He said that the current gearbox/clutch combination now fitted to the van was the correct specification (number 3 from the original based on the unladen weight of the vehicle as reported by the weighbridge. I queried why unladen weight and pointed out that the laden weight permitted 3.5 ton, rather than the 2,85 unladen. He stated the the spec was based on unladen as they did not know what the converted weight would ultimately be, each convertor having different results. However, the spec was adequately rated for the purpose.!

 

Back at the dealership, further discussion revealed that he was going to check out and if necessary upgrade the engine software, and to arrange for new engine mounts to be fitted. The software alteration would be associated with exhaust gas recirculation control valve, and sometimes affects vibration and improves low revs torque. The engine mounts would also help , but not definitely cure the vibration. Parts were ordered, and the van has to go in again when they arrive (next week) for fitting the mounts.

 

He advised that these changes would help the vibration, but probably not eliminate it, it being a characteristic of a vehicle of that size. He reiterated that the widely reported "judder" was a different problem, and that the vibration would not in his view be an issue in the future likely to lead to any premature failures.

 

Watch for further updates when the mounts fix has been completed.

 

In the meantime, if anyone can tell me the difference between judder and vibration I would appreciate it.

 

tonyg3nwl

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Mike88 - 2009-11-20 8:58 AM If an advert is blatantly untrue then a complaint could be made to the Advertising Standards Authority. I've got a feeling that someone on here (or elsewhere) has made such a complaint but got nowhere.

Yes, but how would that help, apart from getting the advert withdrawn.  If the advert said things that persuaded you to buy, and what was advertised is not present, or doesn't perform as advertised, you have remedies as I described above.  That aims at getting you out of gaol, not the advertiser into gaol.

[Brian Kirby]

rowley - 2009-11-20 9:21 AM Brian, I don't think that the adverts mention anything about going backwards! I recently sold my Twin to a dealer and he did not ask about the judder. I hope that my new motorhome will have been modified. (Citroen Relay)

No, but the adverts mention a "special motorhome gearbox".  If that persuaded you to buy the vehicle, as opposed to any other, and there is no such gearbox, you have grounds as stated above.

The advertisements also claim the vehicle is ideally suited to motorhome conversion ("born to be a motorhome").  It is axiomatic that a motorhome will need: a) from time to time to reverse up hills, b) from time to time to reverse onto levelling ramps, c) to reverse under fine control over uneven surfaces.  It is also axiomatic that such modest demands should not result in clutch, or gearbox, failure. 

The advertisement further claims the vehicle has been specially designed "in conjunction with the leading motorhome manufacturers, benefitting from the experience of their customers needs and desires" clearly implying a degree of expertise in motorhome usage.  If that persuaded you to buy the advertised product, and that product is subsequently found to lack even the basic characteristics necessary for its advertised use, then, again, the grounds exist.

[bobalobs]

I had not read the detail of the Fiat advert until recently and when I read "special motorhome gearbox" I thought it might be an indication that a modified gearbox is now being fitted on the production line. I was puzzled/ confused/misled .I suspect any purchaser new to the motorhome market and heard talk of gearbox problems may well read the advert and reach a similar conclusion. Sure altering the wording of the advert will not help current owners but it will help prospective owners to make a fully informed decision.

[euroserv]

If you study the small print you may well find that the following explanation is almost visible to the naked eye;

 

'Special': As in, 'special needs'... Carefully selected gearboxes that will specifically fail to perform as expected if installed in a camper van of any description... 'special circumstances' because we do not deal direct with you as we sold this vehicle to a converter who knew exactly how little help he would get and how little he paid for it. 'special' because no matter how unhappy the end user is, we will always have a marketing machine that manages a smoke screen around the issues and we have a team of crack 'customers' that will smugly pretend that the problems could not affect them... 'special' in that we have no customer facing customer service personnel and those that ignore and lie to you over the telephone are protected from your wrath by the FBI and other more powerful agencies such as publishers.

 

Happy Friday

 

Nick

[Brian Kirby]

bobalobs - 2009-11-20 12:42 PM I had not read the detail of the Fiat advert until recently and when I read "special motorhome gearbox" I thought it might be an indication that a modified gearbox is now being fitted on the production line. I was puzzled/ confused/misled .I suspect any purchaser new to the motorhome market and heard talk of gearbox problems may well read the advert and reach a similar conclusion. Sure altering the wording of the advert will not help current owners but it will help prospective owners to make a fully informed decision.

Agreed, but I was trying to draw attention to the fact that the claims are still there after, I think, well over a year.  Anyone who has more recently purchased a defective van, therefore, still has this potential remedy open to them.  Take away the advertised claim, and bang goes your opportunity!

Like it Nick: like it!  :-)

[davethevibes]

Yes, Chris, I DO reverse up the same drive, it's not steep but it's closed in and can only be done at slow speed. I used to get a minimal amount of judder but now get no judder at all. I think it's significant that it was worse when the engine was warm, i.e. when the engine mounts were warmed up and more flexible. What I had noted prior to the modification was that on a level reverse once the vehicle was moving with clutch fully engaged (foot off pedal) there was no judder. This seems to support the theory in my own case that it was engine mounts rather than a clutch/flywheel/gearbox problem. The Transit I referred to was never free of judder even after a new lower ratio back axle, new clutch/flywheel etc.

Just to be on the safe side, I have repeatedly told FIAT and its service agent that I accept the engine mounts mod only subject to use and reserve the right to a warranty claim should the judder reappear. Everyone seems happy with that.

[AndyStothert]

Dave,

The 'judder' isn't the issue here.

 

After listening to hundreds of owners, countless well qualified vehicle egineers, gearbox specialists, and talked at length to the technical folk at Peugeot, everybody who really knows what the issues are here, and have driven these vehicles in extreme situations all agree that the most important modification is the slightly lower reverse gear ratio.

The judder isn't the factor which causes the damage to clutches and boxes - it is that the engine speed required to develop sufficient torque to propel 3 or 4 tons of motorhome up a steep hill backwards (when there is no visibility and the steering acts in a completely different way) is so high that the van will be going too fast to be safe.

If you slow down to a reasonable and safe speed the torque is then insufficient to deliver the required power smoothly and the whole drivetrain vibrates. This vibration, with the drivetrain fully engaged, and not the juddering when releasing the clutch, is what has been damaging gearboxes.

The option, slipping the clutch to allow that necessary engine speed to be maintained, but lower the road speed to be safe, ineviatably overheats the clutch if reversing any distance, and results in either a burnt-out clutch on the spot, or will potentially reduce the life of it.

The engine mounting mods do reduce some of the juddering on letting out the clutch, but only because the additional tie bar stops the engine leaping about quite so much, but this cannot possibly have any effect on the potential damage to clutches and gearboxes if in extreme or awkward places, including soft ground.

Go back and get that lower reverse gear put in, even if it doesn't completely solve the problem in really extreme circumstances.

 

And why do I always spot all the typing errors just after pushing the submit button?

[arthur49]

I fully appreciate all the efforts, frustration, anger and heartache by many on this forum so when I say what I'm going to say below please bear that in mind!

We purchased an X250 2.3 in July 09 knowing full well that there were issues with the gearbox etc - our dealer did not deny this. We test drove the m/h and found no judder or vibration.........but then it only had a few miles on the clock and issues may well develop with mileage. I did have a concern with the reverse gear ratio however. Seemed to be hellish fast in reverse! However, it was otherwise a great drive. (Yes, tall passengers need to duck down a little in rain to look through the cleared windscreen but its not an issue for my passenger)

Some may say we were reckless or had too much money (we don't) or both in buying an X250 but after viewing about 150 m/h - didn't drive them all!!! - we really liked the one we chose, and still do. It best suited our needs and taste so we went for it.

After about 2000 miles noticed a 'slap' on starting (not too bad) and a slight judder on taking up drive going forwards. Strangely nothing in reverse .......... but that reverse ratio was definitely too high and, to me, the issue that was likely to do damage. I know our chassis was made in May 2008 so is the 'original' gearbox.

Spoke to Fiat and I've had mods a) and b) done ie mounts etc and lower reverse ratio ........ and I have it in writing. What a difference - no trace of 'slap', judder or vibration and now reverses at a sensible speed.

The service from Fiat and my dealer was excellent. We loved our m/h before the mods and now its even better.

I'm writing this not to upset anyone - for instance I've no idea about the issues regarding the 3litre as I've not driven one. I'm writing this to share our experience (as thats the point of a Forum?)

Would I buy another X250 2.3 litre? Definitely.

Arthur

[AndyStothert]

Arthur,

You obviously very definitely don't understand all the anger and frustration which some owners still feel, or you wouldn't have put that post on this thread.

But most of all you don't seem to understand or appreciate how the improvements to your Ducato were obtained, and that there may still be some way to go before everyone gets a satisfactory resolution.

I realise this flies in the face of some people's natural way of thinking, but I would have thought that those of us who have benefitted from the process of pushing Fiat into coming up with a solution (well an improvement) should then support wholeheartedly that very process so that the remaining victims of Fiat's cock-up also get a resoluton.

So, and I may get slagged off for saying this, though your post may not have been deliberately malicious towards those who have yet to get any joy from Fiat, but that is the effect it has.

A lack of considered thought perhaps. I was going to write things like 'I'm alright Jack' or 'plain stupidity', and 'mines OK - stuff the rest of you' , but perhaps it was just a momentary lack of consideration for others.

[Neil Hunt]

Andy, a diplomatic and concise response.

 

ASD was the first thing that came to my mind when I read Arthur's post.

[mike 202]

Arthur - Andy is right, if you want to praise Fiat then do not do it on this site, all that does is persuade potential buyers that it is just a moaning few that have a problem. I and I am sure others do not have so much time that just to slag off (tell it as it is) Fiat that it becomes something to fill the day.

It cost me nearly £5000 to change my 3 month old Fiat (and that was with a very helpfull dealer) so I can assure you that the problems are for real.

The only way you and others have an upgrade is the work done by Andy with support from fellow sufferers, so just say thank you and leave it at that.

I genuinly hope that your motoring is trouble free and happy after that is what we all want.

[Guest Tracker]

I can understand your frustration Andy but don't you think that you are being a bit harsh on Arthur?

After all he is only putting his point of view which he arrived at via his own experiences - much as your own point of view has been reached via your own experiences?

Isn't that the point of a forum - to be able to put your point of view without being bawled out?

To be able to go against the flow without fear of castigation - the very fear that prevents some of the more shy amongst us from even posting at all - and that cannot be good for the dissemination of useful and balanced information?

I don't know whether Arthur is aware of just how much you personally have done to get Fiat to address - at least partially if not fully - the X250 transmission issues - maybe not - and, like me, he can therefore only imagine the sickening grief and worry that must surely be caused by owning a very expensive machine that does not work properly?

It is good to know that some vans can be made to work properly - but I still ain't gonna buy one!

Please - let us allow everyone be able to state their case without fear of reprisals and let us confine our replies to the issues and not the individuals.

That said Andy, a big thank you and vote of appreciation must go to yourself and also to all those many many other brave souls who have taken on Fiat and created all this well deserved bad press for them.

However, with respect, let us not lose sight of the fact that the prime mover for all this furore was getting your own vans sorted out - and the cause for the greater good was simply an impetus adding by product of this.

Peace - man!

 

Spelling and punctuation corrected!

[davethevibes]

Thanks for the advice, Andy, which is gratefully received and taken on board. But...one of the reasons I am not keen to submit my van for surgery is the possibilty of opening up new issues...such as the oil leak now becoming apparent. Mechanics I have spoken to say that when you disturb gaskets and oil seals there is always a raised risk of future failure. What say you?

 

[Neil Hunt]

Tracker,

 

Interesting that you should champion the right of all to have their say and then describe a contrary opinion as a "reprisal" and "castigation".

 

A problem with the written word is that sometimes intended tone is hard to discern and intent is all. Arthur's post came across as smug and self satisfied (Tom Thumb came to my mind).

 

I'm sure the same information (there is no question of it's veracity) delivered in a different tone would have passed unnoticed.