European Touring

[Guest robertandjean]

As long time readers of MMM we feel both the quality and balance of touring related articles has in recent months declined. Whilst articles such as the "So Many Roads" series do contain some nice pictures, the value to 'vanners like ourselves, and we suspect many others, who travel mainly on the continent is very limited. Even for home based touring the focus only on staying on commercial sites again limits the value of this type of article. What do others think? We would suggest more articles with a European theme, with an emphasis on a range of stopover possiblities, such as aires and France Passion sites, as well as commercial sites. You might be saying ,well OK, if you feel so strongly why not write some articles yourself on those lines. Well I have, but it was rejected my MMM, even though I did not seek any payment. I have since put it on the Motorhome Today web site "French Leave", so have a look and see if you think this is the way MMM should be going.

[Guest Bill Ord]

Very much agree on this one, great photographs do not a motorhome magazine make. As a keen photographer myself I can admire them but it's getting boring reading of the same old caravan club site etc. The emphasis on U.K. and comercial site just doesn't do it for me. Like a great many others I mainly use my van on the continent but that's probably because it's where I feel most welcome, I much prefer to use Aires etc. and make use of the van's ability to be independent of sites and hook-ups. The cost of touring in the U.K. for a month is to my mind horendous compared to France, if I use municipal sites occasionally I'm always delighted with the standars and the prices are very low. Do you really need veg. preparation areas and washing up areas as on Caravan Club sites? I noticed in Which Motorcaravan that there are occasional mentions of aire de service locations, a move in the right direction for me. The recent vitriol poured out on the letters pages of MMM about wild camping in Spain perhaps says it all? I've done my share of that and never left a mess any where I stayed and that holds for the majority.I'm beginning to want a new kind of magazine, one that caters for the way I use my van,MMM is becoming like a partner to the Caravan Club in it's attitudes. Where's the campaigning for aires or free/cheap stopovers? These are the kind of things a motorhome magazine should be going for. I just don't need or want campsites every night but I do want a parking area. I buy Camping Car Magazine when in France and love their section on aires in different departments, touring to the French does not have to involve the use of camp-sites optional yes but in the U.K. it's almost mandatory. As to writing articles for MMM it does seem like the same old faces, have you noticed how they all seem to be in all the magazines including the dreaded Caravan Club? Hell of a club! must feel a bit claustraphobic though. Regards Bill Ord

[Guest Martin]

Absolutely agree 100% ... the magazine seems to be in a bit of a rut. It seems editorially unclear about its objectives - the mix of technical ‘stuff’ (yawn) versus trying out new vans (I have one and can't afford another) and covering the joys and excitement of travel and discovery - which is why we still buy it. The Jagos' do not appear to commission articles from interesting experts - they don't have to! They are inundated by readers eager to see their prose and snaps in print, a vast group of eager enthusiasts willing to write for little if any reward – which is the Warner’s formula for success. It works don’t knock it! I also think that several commercial considerations may apply here too – keeping advertisers happy and saving designer time and costs for example … MMM is packed tight with little or no typographic/design input. Visually it is formulaic and unchanged in 5 years – and that reflects on the editorial mindset, and it desperately needs a makeover! As already noted the photography is patchy and the pictures all ‘squared-up’ – few text wraps and interesting typography. When we started we needed a little help technically – now we want to be excited about new places. Commission articles from a wider base of writers please and to those trying to get stuff in - at least a prompt and polite rejection slip would be nice ... rather than emails disappearing into a dark hole which suggests incompetence and rudeness to the eager amateur writer! So Mr Warner – maybe you should begin a European Travel magazine for us ... and I’d be happy to help – ‘cos there seems to be a hole in the market? Care to reply?

[Guest Brian Kirby]

I'm a bit puzzled (again!). I agree that there could be more articles on continental touring. I think that it should be mandatory to include, in/with all such articles, details of all the routes/stopovers used with, in the case of the stopovers, some indication of what they looked like, cost, and where they were. If aires were used, the locations, conditions and pictures of these should also be included. I agree that too many of the articles focus merely on the superficialities and duck the nuts and bolts. When we get to wherever, we can all see the scenery for ourselves. A good photo or two is quite sufficient to show the general topography and character of an area. We don't really need pages of tourist office quality quarter page shots. What seems so often missing among the pictures is the useful information about an area. Simple things, like where are the shops, how far from the town is the site/aire? Does it look/feel secure? Many of the pictures are technically superb, but MMM isn't a photographic magazine. I don't mean by thet we should have bad pictures, but do we really need visit sunny Skegness type either? Is MMM seeknig to promote tourism per se, or motorhoming? What I suspect many would like to know is a bit more about the motorhomability of the country/region or whatever. What are the roads like, what are the local rules on overnighting? However, I don't think it would be practical to have too great an emphasis on wild camping, about which I have the gravest reservations. Neither do I think there can be too much emphasis on continental touring, it's not everyones cup of tea. I'm not too concerned at the magazine graphics, it could have a gentle facelift, but at least the lack of gimmicks leaves the pages easy to read, which is what I want them for. What seems to get left out in the cold, for me, is a motorhoming angle within the articles, rather they seem merely to serve to promote of the locality. Brian

[Guest bill h]

Those who are after new horizons in magazines should consider that there are long queues of new Motorhomers (and others)all eagerly looking for their first adventure across or under the channel. To satisfy the seasoned traveller would require a dozen different magazines all graded according to how many tours they've done, so they can compete with friends as to which grade they are now in. Its much the same with any hobby, once you've done it all its a repetative circle. So what can you do about it, not a lot I would suggest, perhaps drop down a gear and do the same places only differently. Why keep going on about the costs, I imagine some drivers are very dissatified members by wanting to travelling 400 miles to save a penny. (I have a friend who flies to Prague each year just because the beer is half price!) Another complains of the (Rat race) of driving in the UK, then does exactly the same when she returns! We are all different thankfully and I doubt things will change except to become more congested. I believe many of us, as a race are guilty of trying to convert fictitious dreams into reality! bill h PS I've driven around many European countries, the US and OZ for some 40 years now, and still I find nice spots right here on my doorstep.

[Guest Mel E]

I'm even more puzzled than Brian. Both Robert&Jean and Martin recognise that their needs have changed over the years, but seem to think that the magazine should also have changed to satisfy their own personal needs!! And yes, MMM does have a (paid) designer and, if you do a comparison, you will find that the layout has been changing subtly (bigger, prettier photos, for example, but you don't like that!) When you run by far and away the most successful magazine in its sector, it is inevitably difficult to encompass sudden, major change - especially when your audience has a signbiicant percentage of senior readers. Despite at least one competitor throwing the resources and money of a major periodicals publishing house behind its attempt to 'buy' the market, it has so far failed - and at substantial investment cost, I would venture. MMM has the right blend for most of its readers: for every one who finds the technical 'stuff' a yawn, there are those who find it riveting and don't like the travel stuff because they'd prefer to find out for themselves, sight unseen. So the mag gives a blend. Just like you don't have to watch every programme on TV just because it gets broadcast, so you don't have to read every last bit of the magazine.

[Guest naittaw]

Well said, Mel E !

[Guest Martin]

I was going to reply to Mel who, unless I am mistaken a regular paid contributor to MMM, but life's to short and it's not that important.

[Guest Mel B]

Martin What's wrong with being a paid contributor to MMM? It doesn't mean that people can't have their own opinions just because they write for a specific publication. I don't 'belong' to them but I totally agree with Mel E's point of view, some months I love the internchange and techy bits, other months I just loose the will to live reading them (sorry George et al!). It's just down to what the content of that particular issue is and whether it has any relevance or interest to you at the time. No doubt in the future something that isn't of any relevance to me now may well become so in the future in which case I'll be shuffling through my back issues like a twirling dervish trying to remember which issue I saw it in. Oh, I wish my memory was better ... oh I wish my memory was better ... oo-er, I just got a case of de-ja-vous!

[Guest David S]

As a relative newcomer it seems all magazines are trying to cater for everybody. From what is said is there a market for a mag for the newcomer including all the basics about getting started, choosing your van, purchasing and first outings. An intermediate mag with more technical input, details of wild camping and how to make the first trips abroad etc, and an Experts mag with all specialised technical details, and trips around the globe, and more detailed van comparisons. If this were in place we could easily choose what level of info we required, and move up accordingly. David Many publishing houses have ranges of mags which could be channeled in this direction with the website forums providing the links.

[Guest Brian Kirby]

Mel's reply just reminded me. Wouldn't it be helpful if the MMM website (if we can still call it that), carried an index of past articles. Keyword search etc, it tells you which issue/s, and you rummage down your pile of back numbers with total confidence. Sorted! Brian

[Guest fjmike]

Getting the thread back on topic. I agree that MMM does seem to base think all its readers will stop on sites abroad using camping cheques or the CCC. I appreciate that there are many people who find this suits them but others like myself would like to see an alternative choice of places to stop. This would not have to be a full inspection just a mention that close to such and such place as well as the site stopped on there is an Aire / France Passion close by. It woulld not hurt to put in address/ co-ords of the aire.I think this would give a more balanced view and inform the first timers that alternatives are available

[Guest Mel E]

David S - I think part of the segmentation you request is covered by 'Which MotorCaravan'. Brian K - Great Idea - But who's gonna do it? The number of times I could have used such an index . . . fjmike - Four Tenners for a site usually includes 2 continental sites (that's 24 a year or 240 in the last 10 years) and they seem to me to be rarely Camping Cheque or CCC ones. Surely the issue here is that you need enough detail about a site to decide whether it's for you and 4-tenners provides that; a simple listing wouldn't. There are some excellent Guides about :France alone has the Camping Club Guide, Alan Rogers, Michelin, and a couple of others I know about as well as 2 separate Guides to Aires. Maybe there's an article waiting to be written about how to plan a trip abroad and find sites, aires, etc? Martin - Sorry I tired you out. Yes, I occasionally write for MMM and I receive the standard occasional writer expenses (rates which would require me to write 48 hours a day, 16 days a week, 85 weeks a year to keep my motorhome in the manner to which it has become accustomed). I write for other mags too. I do so because I enjoy writing. I've never yet had to sign anything requiring me to agree with everything the Editors say or do! All - Nice as it might be to have lots of highly directed mags to meet our needs, the facts don't support the contention. I note: - the circulation of 'Which MotorCaravan?' and 'Out & About', two of Warner's more directed titles, are way below that of MMM (Which is about 1/3, I believe). - the UK market for new motorhomes is about 40% of the French and 25% of the German. Yet we seem to support far more titles than either of those countries. So they have bigger circulations, more full-time staff and more dosh to go places and takes pics, etc. We must never get complacent and I too think MMM is well overdue for a major face-lift. But I also understand the risks of doing so and therefore why the changes will continue to be more gradual. I'll shut up now!!!

[Guest Mel B]

The only problem I've got now with the MMM mag is ... it's getting too fat!!! I've just weighed it, it's 815g, that's about 1lb 13oz! I really struggle to read it in bed now as it's not that easy to hold up/open. After a while I have to put it down and resort to reading one of the 'lesser' mags instead to give my hands a break. If it gets any bigger I'll probably have to start splitting it apart ... sacrilege!!!

[Brian Kirby]

In response to Mel B, how about the mag is divided in two? One part has the ads, the other the articles. Both come together in the same wrapper, so the advertising revenue is protected, but when it comes to reading it you'd only have the lighter part to fight with. In response to Mel E's question, I hadn't really thought anyone would sit down and catalogue all the back numbers, valuable though that would be. Rather, I had a remote hope that Warners might pick up the ball and run with it, at least to the extent of so indexing all future articles. I'd guess the whole mag is assembled electronically before printing, so indexing articles at final proof stage should be relatively easy. In fact, I'd be a bit surprised if Warners don't have a back index of articles, for editorial reference as a check against duplication - or for when manufacturers complain their particulr product never gets a look in. If this is so, adding the necessary keyword search facilities shouldn't strain the ingenuity too far. Why, we could then even opt to download an article so located to read at leisure. Then (provided the price was fair) the great teetering pile of bloated back numbers could be dispensed with, Warners wouldn't have to maintain a bulky and costly archive for back number sales, and nationwide subsidence would virtually be eliminated and quite a few trees saved! Any takers?

[fjmike]

robertandjean - Somebody at MMM has taken note of your comments as this months MMM has an article /travelogue on France Passions. Mel E - I may not have expressed myself properly I was not having a pop at features such as Four Tenners. It's the travel articles that seem to lack (for want of a better word) alternative places to stop. So many times all that is mentioned are Camping Cheque sites or CCC recomends. Brian K - I did like your letter in this months MMM most helpful

[Brian Kirby]

fjmike

Glad it was of use.

Thanks

Brian

[enodreven]

Hi, I don't think its fair to pick on MMM it seems like an easy target and they have to make a living/profit, However, if so many of you think that there should be a list/s identifing Aires?Municipals in France etc, and I agree, why don't we start by using this web site to compile members lists of european aires/municipals and sites Brian

[Brian Kirby]

Brian

Not sure if it was my post you were responding to, but if it was, I wasn't after just a list.

What has struck me about a number of the travel articles is that the authors seem to arrive in and depart from the featured area by teleport.  Suddenly, they're there.  They then go into considerable detail about the area, with lots of pretty pics, but seem to me often to leave out the information that might be of interest to motorhomers. 

After all, it is the motorhome that is the common thread.  Yet, some of the articles are based upon pursuit of particular interests which, while sometimes worthy, are only likely to be really interesting to others similarly inclined.  Some dwell on the culture, others on the scenery, others again on a personal interest.  The area, however, gets a bit short changed for those with differing interests, who may simply conclude it isn't for them.

Among the article should be some indication of the routes used there and back, with comments on the roads travelled and sites/aires, or what have you, used en-route.  Nothing too detailed, just a brief comment on a road best avoided, or one that was pretty, or gave good views, may help others plan routes to other destinations.

Then there are the shopping stops.  Good local shops, markets or supermarkets, and where to find them, would be invaluable information.

Finally the overnight stops, be they lay-bys, campsites or aires.  Where were they and were they any good, with a small picture to give an indication of appearance.

None of this need take more than a few lines as an appendix to an article, but it would add greatly to that store of useful information we all sometimes need when travelling.  Any of us can then use it as/when we need. 

Of course, there will be those who prefer to just discover things as they go, but there will also be others for whom these titbits will add convenience and pleasure.  Then that article describing the author's search for Meissen porcelain figurenes, or whatever, can be of more than just passing interest to those whose interest is fishing. 

The fishermen, who is of course another motorhomer, will now know where to find/avoid resting places, shops and roads, as they pass through the same area en route to their next lake or river.

[enodreven]

Hi, Brian I totally agree with your suggestions ? is there someway that we can start to compile this type of information ?? as i for one would find it extremly useful as i intend to spend a couple of months in France and Spain starting, God willing, in the next week or two ? Brian

[Brian Kirby]

Brian

I'd have thought this would be a longer term thing, to be introduced via Warners persuading all contributors to include the "missing" information in their articles.  We've just had April's MMM, so, taking account of the lag in printing, and assuming anyone on the MMM editorial team is listening in (Sssshh! they do sometimes!), I'd think it would be at least July before the results were visible.  Far too late for your trip.

If you're looking for aires, you can buy the French "Guide Officiel Aires de Services Camping Cars" in France for about 7-8 € from bigger supermarkets, newsagents and some motorhome dealers.  More details if you search the forum under "aires". 

If you want good, unbiased, guidance on sites, go for the Caravan Club's "Caravan Europe 1" (France, Spain, Andorra and Portugal) at £11.99.  You've just about got time for delivery before you go.  The reports are from members, not inspectors, so they tend to tell it like it is.

Otherwise, if just France, I'd go for the Michelin "Camping France".  The 2006 edition should just about be out, but I think they cocked it last year with a new reigonal format that really works best if you to know the geography of France by regional names and the constituent departmental numbers.  The French probably learn this at school, but it seems to have escaped their attention that not everyone else does!  It remains usable, but the unending references back to the page with the numbered maps, every time you want a site in a different region is rather tedious.

Hope this helps.

[fjmike]

If you need info on French Aires there is a very good site that as well as listing most French Aires on site you can purchase a cd with them on as well. http://www.campingcar-infos.com/index1.htm Most of the Aires have comments written so you can get a good idea if they are suitable.OK the site is in French but using your favourite online translater (some of the comments are in different tongues even a few in english!