Brownhills - Dec MMM

[Guest JudgeMental]

webbocj - 2009-12-02 9:38 AM

 

Bob.

From one Knaus owner to another, i perhaps understand what you are saying. At least you have the Renault.

chris.

 

Surely the warranty on the chassis is different then the motorhome element? If I have trouble with the Ford bit I go to local Ford dealer in croydon. For the motorhome I go to Belgian Euramobil dealer where I purchased it.

 

I appreciate thee Knaus situation is a little different as they went bust......but you should have no worries with the chassis side, they are covered by a pan European warranty.....

 

[webbocj]

Knaus/FiatX250 out of warranties, not many places to run too, a lonely old world.

chris

[Usinmyknaus]

Chris. Yes the Renault has been flawless over 31 months so far - and reverses up a 1 in 8 slope every time I go out in it. The Knaus bit the dealer refused to look at except at full workshop rates during the final several months of the warranty period. Fortunately I was able to fix the 2 problems myself - a water leak caused by inferior fastenings and incorrectly assembled heating ducting. There are a lot more of the faulty clips and I expect I will have to replace them all over time. Trouble is they all require major dismantling of cabinets and wall panels to access them.

 

Bob

[Usinmyknaus]

JudgeMental - 2009-12-02 10:25 AM

 

webbocj - 2009-12-02 9:38 AM

 

Bob.

From one Knaus owner to another, i perhaps understand what you are saying. At least you have the Renault.

chris.

 

Surely the warranty on the chassis is different then the motorhome element? If I have trouble with the Ford bit I go to local Ford dealer in croydon. For the motorhome I go to Belgian Euramobil dealer where I purchased it.

 

I appreciate thee Knaus situation is a little different as they went bust......but you should have no worries with the chassis side, they are covered by a pan European warranty.....

 

I sometimes wish I had followed your lead to Belgium all those months ago Judge, but at least the Renault has been a gem. The Knaus has generally been OK - compared to the troubles of many other motorhomers on this forum - and a number of things I have been able to fix myself. I just hope Knaus-specific parts such as body panels aren't required anytime soon.

 

Bob

[Guest JudgeMental]

Usinmyknaus - 2009-12-02 2:51 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2009-12-02 10:25 AM

 

webbocj - 2009-12-02 9:38 AM

 

Bob.

From one Knaus owner to another, i perhaps understand what you are saying. At least you have the Renault.

chris.

 

Surely the warranty on the chassis is different then the motorhome element? If I have trouble with the Ford bit I go to local Ford dealer in croydon. For the motorhome I go to Belgian Euramobil dealer where I purchased it.

 

I appreciate thee Knaus situation is a little different as they went bust......but you should have no worries with the chassis side, they are covered by a pan European warranty.....

 

I sometimes wish I had followed your lead to Belgium all those months ago Judge, but at least the Renault has been a gem. The Knaus has generally been OK - compared to the troubles of many other motorhomers on this forum - and a number of things I have been able to fix myself. I just hope Knaus-specific parts such as body panels aren't required anytime soon.

 

Bob

 

I don't think I will be so lucky next time. the dealer I use has moved to a new site (just down the road) and built a very impressive showroom. Now call me a cynic *-) but the money to pay the banks back for this new luxury establishment has to come from somewhere...

 

also the chap I delt with(the owner) has disappeared from view and there is an new and IMO a bit of a typical slippery salesman front of house. very jolly...but I am suspicious with the conversations we have had, particularly re Fiat X2508-) BUT I should not judge :-S before I have tried them for a new quote......

 

but service is still excellent, I turned up for habitation service last july on way to italy. and heki started leaking the night before! they stripped it all out are re fitted there and then delayed us by 2 hours. but they have excellent coffee on tap and 100 vans to look at :-D

[Guest Tracker]

MotorhomeViews - 2009-11-29 8:21 PM

Now here's a question. Why don't Brownhills fight back or at least stand up for their company on the Forums?

 

Some time ago when Brownhills had their 'talk to Tom' scheme for disgruntled customers, I sent 'Tom' (forgotten his last name) the CEO at that time, a link to a thread in which Brownhills were being thoroughly slagged off, together with a slightly humorous (well you know me!) invitation to read and reply in defence of his company.

 

We were at that time looking at new vans and Brownhills prices were very competitive so I did have a vested interest in his reply.

 

For my trouble I received a very abrasive email back saying that he and his company had no interest whatsoever in the trouble makers that frequented forums and that he had no intention of replying or even reading the thread as he preferred to resolve customer complaints personally.

 

So we bought our next van from Marquis!

[Manu]

Hi Rich....so how did you find attitudes at Marquis, any probs since purchase ???Phil.

[Guest Tracker]

Manu - 2009-12-03 12:09 PM

 

Hi Rich....so how did you find attitudes at Marquis, any probs since purchase ???Phil.

 

I've had several vans from Marquis over the years, all used - NEVER new, and none of them have ever had any problems whatsoever until this van which has had several issues to be resolved under the very good 12 months warranty that Marquis included in the deal.

 

Given that we live 165 miles from the nearest Marquis I had a little problem in having parts sent to me for DIY fitting once a problem has been diagnosed but a phone call to the warranty firm soon cleared that one up.

 

I can't say that I was overly impressed with Marquis Tewksbury's lack of urgency in ordering a new reversing camera screen from Waeco following their diagnosis that it was kaput but once they did - after almost two weeks delay and a couple of phone calls - it quickly arrived and I fitted it and cured the fault.

 

It may well be that they are victims of their own success as there does seem to be quite a wait to get any work done if you need workshop time but at least all the staff are friendly and helpful.

 

I would be happy to buy another van from Marquis in the future, but it would be a lot easier to buy one from a local dealer where help should be easier to arrange - assuming one's local dealer is up to the job that is!

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Usinmyknaus - 2009-12-02 2:45 PM ..... The Knaus bit the dealer refused to look at except at full workshop rates during the final several months of the warranty period. Fortunately I was able to fix the 2 problems myself - a water leak caused by inferior fastenings and incorrectly assembled heating ducting. There are a lot more of the faulty clips and I expect I will have to replace them all over time. Trouble is they all require major dismantling of cabinets and wall panels to access them. Bob

Largely too late now, but your dealer is/was quite wrong about this!

As you bought the vehicle from him, he is liable (Sale of Goods etc. Acts) for the repairs, whether or not the guarantee is intact.

Legally, it is the supplying dealer who is primarily responsible for the repairs.  Your guarantee was an additional contract between you and Knaus, but it is the dealer who is responsible for implementing the repairs so, with no guarantee to fall back on, it was/is the dealer who must make the repairs. 

Arguably - though further advice should be taken on the point - since Knaus issued a guarantee against water ingress (for, I think 6 years?), and since the dealer is legally liable for the quality of the goods he supplies for 6 years, it may be that he also becomes liable for any water ingress damage within that period.  The six year guarantee seems to me to suggest Knaus do not expect leakage within that period, so arguably establishing that a leak free life of 6 years may reasonably be expected.  However, that would doubtless mean continuing with whatever damp etc checks were required under the Knaus guarantee, so that the spirit of the guarantee was/is respected.  Might be worth a word with Trading Standards, though.

[GypsyTom]

Tracker - 2009-12-03 11:02 AM

MotorhomeViews - 2009-11-29 8:21 PMNow here's a question. Why don't Brownhills fight back or at least stand up for their company on the Forums?

Some time ago when Brownhills had their 'talk to Tom' scheme for disgruntled customers, I sent 'Tom' (forgotten his last name) the CEO at that time, a link to a thread in which Brownhills were being thoroughly slagged off, together with a slightly humorous (well you know me!) invitation to read and reply in defence of his company. We were at that time looking at new vans and Brownhills prices were very competitive so I did have a vested interest in his reply.For my trouble I received a very abrasive email back saying that he and his company had no interest whatsoever in the trouble makers that frequented forums and that he had no intention of replying or even reading the thread as he preferred to resolve customer complaints personally.So we bought our next van from Marquis!

I've no wish to prolong this debate but Tracker cannot be allowed to get away with this total misrepresentation of what he said to the chief executive of Brownhills. He has repeated this allegation several times and has been most economical with the truth.

Those of us who took part in that thread will remember that his comment to Tom was along the lines of: "I'm interested in how you view the debate currently going on in this forum, although those no way that I'd ever do business with your firm anyway".

This directly contradicts the rubbish he's now peddling that he was thinking of buying a 'van from Brownhills but went to another firm because of Tom's response to him.

Tom's responded by saying that there was no point in him debating with Tracker as Tracker had made it quite clear that he would never be a customer, so what was the point and that he'd rather save his energies for real customers and not those simply writing to stir up trouble.

Several forum regulars criticised Tracker for his habit of once again opening his mouth before his brain was in gear and told him that his approach to Tom was unreasonable and what did he expect if he wrote to the man in such nasty and derogatory terms.

Please Tracker, start being truthful and stop telling everyone that Tom was unreasonable, as the only unreasonable person in that debate was you. In fact so objectionable was your comment to Tom that the mods pulled the entire thread.

[Usinmyknaus]

Brian Kirby - 2009-12-03 2:59 PM

Usinmyknaus - 2009-12-02 2:45 PM ..... The Knaus bit the dealer refused to look at except at full workshop rates during the final several months of the warranty period. Fortunately I was able to fix the 2 problems myself - a water leak caused by inferior fastenings and incorrectly assembled heating ducting. There are a lot more of the faulty clips and I expect I will have to replace them all over time. Trouble is they all require major dismantling of cabinets and wall panels to access them. Bob

Largely too late now, but your dealer is/was quite wrong about this!

As you bought the vehicle from him, he is liable (Sale of Goods etc. Acts) for the repairs, whether or not the guarantee is intact.

Legally, it is the supplying dealer who is primarily responsible for the repairs.  Your guarantee was an additional contract between you and Knaus, but it is the dealer who is responsible for implementing the repairs so, with no guarantee to fall back on, it was/is the dealer who must make the repairs. 

Arguably - though further advice should be taken on the point - since Knaus issued a guarantee against water ingress (for, I think 6 years?), and since the dealer is legally liable for the quality of the goods he supplies for 6 years, it may be that he also becomes liable for any water ingress damage within that period.  The six year guarantee seems to me to suggest Knaus do not expect leakage within that period, so arguably establishing that a leak free life of 6 years may reasonably be expected.  However, that would doubtless mean continuing with whatever damp etc checks were required under the Knaus guarantee, so that the spirit of the guarantee was/is respected.  Might be worth a word with Trading Standards, though.

Thanks Brian, that's useful to know. I was told that my case had gone up to Director level at Lowdhams and been rejected. As it was I fixed the problems myself - 2 day's work and £6 in parts - with another tranche of work likely next Spring. My main concerns are water ingress in the future and a lack of parts in the event of a rear-end shunt. In response to Lowdhams refusal of assistance I switched the last habitation check to an independent engineer so I suppose this might be used as an excuse to try to avoid a future claim under the Knaus warranty. Heaven forbid it is necessary, but if I face a big bill for water ingress within the 6 years, based on the points you make, I would certainly push for assistance from the dealer. After all, the warranties given were a major deciding factor in the deal for me as a neophyte motorhomer at the time.Bob

[Guest Tracker]

Having trawled back through a few of GypsyTom's posting I have yet to find one where he is not having a go at someone - usually me!

 

Not once have I seen a balanced, helpful or informative posting.

 

I really don't mind informed and/or good humoured criticism, after all if you stick your head above the parapet someone is bound to have a potshot at it - so I will take his latest rant in the spirit of him offering a balancing view!

 

That said, I am looking forward to the day, more in hope than expectation, when I read a really helpful and informative posting from GypsyTom where he can share the full benefit of his vast experience of Motorhomes to try and help others.

 

Meanwhile I stand by what I say about Brownhills as I say it with the express intention that anyone who does wish to buy from them, and that is their choice, does so in the full knowledge of what can happen if they get a problem.

 

That said I fully understand and accept that Brownhills do sometimes get it right as there are also people who tell us how good and helpful they are.

 

A balanced view - so that potential buyers are able to make an informed choice - that's all I want to see.

 

It would be so good to see Brownhills evolve into a market leader and a company to which all the others would aspire - and then maybe I too will consider buying a van from them.

[GypsyTom]

Tracker - 2009-12-04 10:36 AMHaving trawled back through a few of GypsyTom's posting I have yet to find one where he is not having a go at someone - usually me!Not once have I seen a balanced, helpful or informative posting.I really don't mind informed and/or good humoured criticism, after all if you stick your head above the parapet someone is bound to have a potshot at it - so I will take his latest rant in the spirit of him offering a balancing view!That said, I am looking forward to the day, more in hope than expectation, when I read a really helpful and informative posting from GypsyTom where he can share the full benefit of his vast experience of Motorhomes to try and help others.Meanwhile I stand by what I say about Brownhills as I say it with the express intention that anyone who does wish to buy from them, and that is their choice, does so in the full knowledge of what can happen if they get a problem.That said I fully understand and accept that Brownhills do sometimes get it right as there are also people who tell us how good and helpful they are.A balanced view - so that potential buyers are able to make an informed choice - that's all I want to see.It would be so good to see Brownhills evolve into a market leader and a company to which all the others would aspire - and then maybe I too will consider buying a van from them.

I knew that your response would be exactly as it is. That you would not attempt to deny your lies about the CEO of Brownhills but would simply divert attention by disparaging me.

I try post as little as possible but your disgraceful comments about this man, which you know to be untrue, must be challenged by any fair-minded person who remembers your post.

I repeat. Tom did not reply to a fair and 'humorous' post from you. It was a nasty attack on his company in which you quite clearly stated that you would never do business with him.

I and several others picked you up on this and told you that your post was unacceptable and what did you expect in reply? In this instance the sympathies of most of the posters were actually with Tom!

I find it appalling that, since then, you have peddled this lie that you wrote a nice humorous letter to him and that he was the guilty party in replying in a nasty manner to you.

If you have any conscience or sense of fair play you will stop this attack on him, which is based on an outright lie. You're even claiming now that you'd have considered buying a new 'van from his firm if he hadn't been so sharp with you. This is another lie as you clearly stated in your original letter to him that you'd never do business with his company!

I shall post no more on this, I've made my point and it's important that others know that your libelling of this man is based on a total untruth. Shame on you!

[Guest Tracker]

GypsyTom - 2009-12-04 12:33 PM

You're even claiming now that you'd have considered buying a new 'van from his firm if he hadn't been so sharp with you.

 

I'll pick just the one inaccuracy from your rant as this is clearly not what I said and if you had read the postings properly without the red mist you would know this.

 

Just to set the record straight - what I said was that there was no way I would contemplate buying a van from the present incarnation of Brownhills but that one day if they got their act together and became customer service oriented along with the best of the dealers, then I would be happy to reconsider. Nothings changed on that score.

 

Your choosing to read into any posting what you want to read and not what was written or intended in order to further your own point of view is well known on this forum and I too will leave it for others to decide in what light they wish to see Brownhills.

 

You may wish to read my last posting again and reconsider the other points raised as well as perhaps reconsidering your own attitude and levels of contribution.

[Brian Kirby]

Usinmyknaus - 2009-12-04 8:59 AM Thanks Brian, that's useful to know. I was told that my case had gone up to Director level at Lowdhams and been rejected. As it was I fixed the problems myself - 2 day's work and £6 in parts - with another tranche of work likely next Spring. My main concerns are water ingress in the future and a lack of parts in the event of a rear-end shunt. In response to Lowdhams refusal of assistance I switched the last habitation check to an independent engineer so I suppose this might be used as an excuse to try to avoid a future claim under the Knaus warranty. Heaven forbid it is necessary, but if I face a big bill for water ingress within the 6 years, based on the points you make, I would certainly push for assistance from the dealer. After all, the warranties given were a major deciding factor in the deal for me as a neophyte motorhomer at the time. Bob

Hi Bob

Lowdham's directors will have decided, in the first instance, to do what they thought in the best interests of Lowdham.  However, that decision was a "try on", (and unless they are complete incompetents they will have known that) to avoid admitting their liabilities.  To try to be fair, they may possibly have been concerned that by admitting their legal liabilities they would have opened some imagined "flood gate": who knows?

The simple fact is that as they sold you the van, under the Sale of Goods Act, they remain liable for its defects irrespective of whether there is, or is not, a guarantee offered by Knaus, and irrespective of whether or not Knaus is still trading.  Neither the demise of Knaus, nor the existence or non-existence of a guarantee, modifies in any way Lowdham's liability for the goods they sold under the Act.

My point about the water ingress warranty is that it appears to me to establish that Knaus broadly expected the van not to leak within the warranty period.  In other words, it is indicative of the expected quality and durability of Knaus vans.  Presumably, that will have influenced your decision to buy a Knaus.  This suggests to me that since, under the Act, Lowdham retains broad liability for defects for 6 years, any leakage taking place within the Knaus warranty period may still fall to Lowdham to repair - on the basis that the warranty period establishes a reasonable expectation for the van to remain free of leaks.  In other words, if it leaks within the warranty period, is is not of the stated quality, and Lowdham, as seller, must repair it.  It is conjectural, but I think worth pursuing with Trading Standards to see what they say.  It may require a couple of letters to Lowdham to make clear what you expect from them if there should be trouble.  As above, I think TS should be consulted before writing.

My final point was to get the required moisture checks carried out, as scheduled, by Lowdham, so that, as the seller, they are in a position to spot any trouble before it causes damage, and take appropriate remedial action.  Taking it elsewhere for the checks, denies them that advantage.  I assume you only did this on the basis of advice you received from Lowdham, so all is not lost.  It would be difficult for them to duck responsibility for leaks as seller, on the basis that you, as their customer, had accepted their (incorrect) advice on the extent of their liability following the demise of Knaus.  However, I think you should act quickly, since delay will count against your interest.

[Brock]

I have exchanged emails with Tom on two occasions. Each time, I received a full reply answering my points. Both exchanges were conducted in a mature manner to achieve a mutual understanding and solution. Perhaps I was lucky.

[MotorhomeViews]

Dear Mel B , members and readers

 

we were under the same impression that in order to maintain your warranty that the servicing has to be carried out by by the supplying dealer, I am talk new purchases here.

However on investigation it became apparrent that yes you have to choose a Manufacuturer approved service agent. You do not under any law have to use the dealer who sold the new vehicle to you.

One would hope the dealers are well placed to offer competitively priced servicing, failing that you are free to choose your servicing agent. They must however rectify any warranty work arising from their work.

 

Another glass or red please

trev e

[Mel B]

Hi Trev

 

The problem is that some of the dealers don't seem to know this .... or don't want to, so try their darnest to make you think that you HAVE to go to them.

 

With our van we don't have to go to a specific dealer, any work just has to be carried out by suitably qualified company. We have to have a 6 month damp check to keep our water ingress warranty valid but we do NOT have to have a habitation check each year. Some may say our having to have a check every 6 months is an extra expense but not having to pay out for a full habitation check every year saves us much more than this. As the deal we got with our van was good, this did not particularly influence our purchase, but it was something to bear in mind to ensure that we didn't 'forget' to get it done!

[Rayjsj]

Living where I do (Pembrokeshire) there are hardly any dealers within 1 Days travel (even less since Discover closed all the branches 'down South') so what happens here ? an Intresting dilemma if servicing is restricted to ONLY the supplying Dealer. Ray

[Usinmyknaus]

Thanks Brian, that's really useful info.

 

Bob

[aljen]

Ray

we have the same problem here in Scotland, far north. We only have about 3 dealers up here and its a long way to travel to the nearest, about 300mls to the closest, which makes it hard to keep up with any warranty work. Again we dont have much of a choice either in having a good look at used/new m/homes. At least its a nice part of the country

 

Alan

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2009-12-07 9:52 PM Living where I do (Pembrokeshire) there are hardly any dealers within 1 Days travel (even less since Discover closed all the branches 'down South') so what happens here ? an Intresting dilemma if servicing is restricted to ONLY the supplying Dealer. Ray

Not easy, I agree. 

However, do remember that there are two distinct concepts at work.  On the one hand, there are guarantees.  These cover just what they say they cover, no more, no less.  That is not to say a manufacturer may not stretch the terms from time to time in the interests of goodwill, but he has no legal obligation to do so.  Most guarantees cover general workmanship and materials items for one year, some for two, and some have insurance backed components for a further year, or occasionally more.  Most motorhome warranties have some form of water ingress warranty in addition, most being 5 or 6 years.  Inevitably there are conditions attached: usually there is a blanket requirement that the motorhome will have been used reasonably and will have been properly maintained.  You must read the lot because, if you fail on one of the requirements the whole guarantee, generally, is voided.  If it says the motorhome must have annual habitation checks carried out by an authorised dealer, stipulating a time window for these, that is what you must do to maintain the guarantee in force.  If that means long and inconvenient trips, tough: the terms of the guarantee are not altered by claims of hardship.  The response, not unreasonably, will be that you should have thought about that earlier!  If you take the van to an unauthorised workshop for its warranty checks/services (whatever these may be), the guarantee will be voided.  The warranty conditions are not negotiable, and they are no more nor less than they say they are.  Ideally, you should read them before finalising your purchase, and should buy a different van if you don't like what you read.  However, the guarantee terms do not affect your statutory rights under consumer legislation: they are additional to those rights.

When you buy anything (motorhomes included) your contract is with the seller alone, and this establishes your rights under consumer legislation.  This is the second concept.  If something is wrong with what you buy, it is to the seller you must return, and ask him what he proposes to do to put right the defect.  Do not go off to someone else under some guarantee: that someone else did not sell you the goods.  The seller may take your van to someone else for repair under warranty, he may carry out the repairs himself under warranty, he may suggest you should take the van elsewhere for repair under warranty (which you are not obliged to do), or he may carry out the repairs himself without invoking the warranty.  So long as the repairs are correctly executed, he has met his obligations to you. 

However, if you take the van somewhere else before speaking to the seller, and the repairs go wrong, you will have weakened any case you may have against the seller for compensation.  The seller may counter claim that by not telling him what you intended doing, you denied him the opportunity of making the repairs himself, or deciding how they should be made, or by whom.  He will almost certainly deny all liability for the consequences of your actions.  If you didn't tell him, how can he be liable?  Unlike the guarantee, that won't void your statutory rights - but it will probably negate them so far as that particular issue is concerned.  Other, unconnected, issues will still stand to be dealt with by the seller under his statutory obligations to you.

So, it is the dealer who sold you the motorhome who is legally liable to put right any and all defects that arise in your new van, and no-one else.  That is why you must first report (and confirm in writing) any defect you want put right to that dealer, and no one else.  How he will do that is legally his problem, and his alone.  If your van should turn out to be the proverbial "Friday van", suffering a succession of defects, or if he fails to carry out repairs properly or speedily (though within reason), you may have to take him to court.  If you haven't dealt fairly by him, whatever may have been his conduct toward you, you will weaken your case and make legal remedy far more difficult, or even impossible, to obtain.  So, whatever goes wrong, and whatever needs fixing, supplying dealer first, at all times!

[Guest Tracker]

Rayjsj - 2009-12-07 9:52 PM

 

Living where I do (Pembrokeshire) there are hardly any dealers within 1 Days travel (even less since Discover closed all the branches 'down South') so what happens here ? an Intresting dilemma if servicing is restricted to ONLY the supplying Dealer. Ray

 

Same here Ray which is why - apart from the cost - I only ever buy a used van that I can see, inspect and give a darned good test drive before I buy it - so no nasty surprises when I collect it!

 

Apart from the current van I've never had a warranty of more than three months and I am very happy with that as it is so much easier to either repair the van yourself or get it done locally at your own expense and arrangement.

 

In fact I have often negotiated a lower price to just have a warranty that lasts only until I get the van home - usually over 100 miles which is a good enough full appraisal driving distance - and then at least what I do is up to me with nobody else to rely on.