Guest Tracker Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 So just exactly what is 'freedom' - true and total 'freedom' that is - not the partial 'freedom that we all aspire to? How do you define 'freedom'? Is it an unattainable myth? Surely true freedom only comes with NOT having the responsibility of possessions and/or money and NOT having to worry about and manage these 'assets'? And yet without either money or possessions we would not have true 'freedom' either, because our lives would be full of the worries and stresses of just staying alive and warm and not starving? So on that logical basis maybe 'freedom' is the half way point between excess and starvation then? Maybe 'freedom' is having enough possessions to be happy, and enough money to maintain and protect and enjoy those possessions and not so much that it becomes a huge responsibility? But most of all perhaps true freedom is having the wisdom to realise that what you have is enough to be happy with and not so much as to give you sleepless nights with the worry of how to manage it all? When you look at what many others have lost in the last year by way of career, health or in many cases their lives, and you think on how their loved ones have to cope with their own futures, I find it very humbling and very grateful indeed for all that I have today. I guess I have freedom then - and I hope that you all do too! Happy Christmas to you all and a safe and healthy New Year too! Good night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Tracker - 2009-12-24 8:05 PM But most of all perhaps true freedom is having the wisdom to realise that what you have is enough to be happy with and not so much as to give you sleepless nights with the worry of how to manage it all? With the decisions we've taken and plans we've made, hopefully we fall into this category ... only time will tell! :-D A safe and happy Christmas to you Rich and Dot, and everyone else. I hope the new year brings everyone health and happiness. :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Richard, that is possibly the deepest and most meaningful post you've ever made, and totally true into the bargain, amazing! Have a good Christmas both and a healthy and happy new year to you. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 Total freedom is unattainable for modern man, he will never be free of the yoke of responsibility in one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I reckon total freedom would be: Excellent health No responsibilities and a very large unearned income, guaranteed for life. The downside is that you could end up having achieved nothing, and have no real friends. Too high a price to pay in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 Thanks for your thoughts Tracker a very appropriate post. To me a man with the ability and means to go wherever he wishes without any encumberance is truly free. But on its own freedom is hollow and pointless. It is the encumberance of relationships, frienships and responsibilty which gives real meaning to life. It is what we value that is important. A merry christmas to all, peace and good health in 2010 and beyond. And let us all gives thanks and appreciation to all our military serving abroad who are not able to be with their families and friends at this time. Roy Fuller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Hi, Unless you want all the power and none of the responsibilities, you will have to accept that freedom is relative. Your freedom should not restict the freedom of, nor endanger, others. I can understand why I should not stop and have a picnic on hard shoulder of motorway. On the other hand, I regard "Residents Only" parking to be theft. :-S I feel that disqualification should not be used as a punishment, but do accept that it may be necessary to protect other road users when a driver is dangerous because of inability/disability, drink/drugs, or "attitude". In which case, disqualification should be for life or until the disqualifee can prove, at his own expense, that he has become a fit person to hold a licence. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Before I had a chance to edit in another aspect to the freedom equation our visitors arrived so here goes - People are the other variable. Without people - family and friends mainly - but also the everyday folk you meet simply by going about life's daily pattern - in your life you would of course be free, but on the other hand what would that free life really be worth - unless you like being a hermit? So as far as people are concerned do we really want total freedom? I think not - so I must now conclude that freedom in an illusion - unless you are a hermit. I don't think I've worded this very well - but I hope you get the gist! Happy New Year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Tracker - 2009-12-26 10:41 AM ........... So as far as people are concerned do we really want total freedom? Ooh yes, of course we do! We just aren't quite so happy with other people having total freedom as well. :-)Please God make me virtuous, but not yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Brian Kirby - 2009-12-26 12:55 PM Please God make me virtuous, but not yet? An excellent new year resolution Brian - for some time in the future - as yet unspecified! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klyne Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Tracker - 2009-12-26 10:41 AM Before I had a chance to edit in another aspect to the freedom equation our visitors arrived so here goes - People are the other variable. Without people - family and friends mainly - but also the everyday folk you meet simply by going about life's daily pattern - in your life you would of course be free, but on the other hand what would that free life really be worth - unless you like being a hermit? So as far as people are concerned do we really want total freedom? I think not - so I must now conclude that freedom in an illusion - unless you are a hermit. I don't think I've worded this very well - but I hope you get the gist! Happy New Year! Surely Freedom like Beauty depends how you define it. Some would define Freedom as being able to do what ever you wanted with no fear of consequences. Others would define Freedom as the complete opposite and think that protection from the possible excesses of the former was a better Freedom. I think most would view Freedom as being able to elect freely those we wish to lead us and be able to make suggestions on how we might wish to be goverened. That of course is a collective Freedom. Individual Freedom depends on so many strands like quality of education, quality of health and a degree of financial Independence. In essence I suspect too much is demanded of the word Freedom and perhaps it can never deliver! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Klyne - 2009-12-26 2:36 PM Individual Freedom depends on so many strands like quality of education, quality of health and a degree of financial Independence. In essence I suspect too much is demanded of the word Freedom and perhaps it can never deliver! David Does freedom really depend on quality of education David? My feeling is that whilst it may well be that the more we educate ourselves the more we become aware of the so called advantages that this education has given us, next we also become more aware of just how much is still available and desirable that we don't already have and next this drives the desire for more of these material assets and superficial friends which in turn reduces the level of true freedom by virtue of the stress of managing said assets? Are the truly free people those with no educationally derived desires and induced stresses? I wish I knew? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Over a period of time I have read many posts on this group that emphasize education as if it was the be all and end all. Pushy parents sending their kids to uni only to graduate with thousands of pounds worth of debts before they have even got onto the bottom rung of the jobs ladder. How many of the so called professionals are now screwed to the floor with debt and mortagages that they can't pay and how many of them are languishing on the dole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 The problem with this argument, I think, is that it confuses employment with education. Is it better for the individual to be given the best education they can assimilate, or to be educated to a lower standard because that may enable them to take a job in the short term?Is it only the children of pushy parents who go to university, or do some possibly want to go for their own reasons, so as to follow their chosen career paths?Do we need individuals to do the jobs that require a university education for entry, or should we merely dispense with those jobs altogether? After you in the queue for the (un) qualified doctor, lawyer, engineer, architect, accountant, teacher, etc etc. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Of course there are some that will follow a chosen path that requires a degree of education, doctors solicitors etc etc. But what about the 'none' jobs that some people graduate from? Just out of curiosity what is your trade or profession? It seems to be that no one wants to get their hands dirty these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klyne Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Tracker - 2009-12-26 3:02 PM Klyne - 2009-12-26 2:36 PM Individual Freedom depends on so many strands like quality of education, quality of health and a degree of financial Independence. In essence I suspect too much is demanded of the word Freedom and perhaps it can never deliver! David Does freedom really depend on quality of education David? Yes, but it would be wrong to see education just in terms of academic achievement. Education, however achieved broadens the horizons so we have a freedon to appreciate more things. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Klyne - 2009-12-26 5:14 PM Yes, but it would be wrong to see education just in terms of academic achievement. Education, however achieved broadens the horizons so we have a freedom to appreciate more things. David I understand this but I am far from convinced that education is essential in achieving freedom? Generally speaking the more things the human mind can appreciate then the more things that the human mind will want? I still reckon the curse of modern society is wanting things that are either unattainable or unaffordable and how much freedom does the debt incurred in wanting and trying to acquire these assets bring? I reckon that the most important aspect of being free, after freedom from fear, want and cold, is freedom from debt? Maybe one is more likely to achieve this without a high level of education which often brings about peer pressures for more assets? I would swap an education for a good dollop of common sense and self discipline! - well actually I don't have to as I don't have the former but I do have the latter two and they ain't done me any harm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 We have no control over what we inherit at birth. We can not predict where the next "Einstein" may arise, but we should try to ensure that he will not fail to achieve his potential merely because we denied him the best education he could have. The simple truth is that we need him, and the others like him, and that no amount of education will turn the rest of us into one like him.We therefore all need the best education we can assimilate, so as to progress as far as we are able, just in case we should turn out to be him. That will be good for him, but will also be good for us, because we shall then benefit from his talents, while having sufficient education to be able to recognise him for what he is, and ourselves for what we are.To partially answer Malcolm, I have many times had dirty hands, for all kinds of reasons, but I have never sensed any greater personal benefit from that state than when they were clean. Is there something I have missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymer C 9. Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Freedom - what a wonderful word. F. Friends and the time to enjoy their company R. Roam and the right to do it without any worry. E. Enough energy and health to enjoy my freedom E. Easy days lazy nights D. Day dreaming then making the dreams a reality O. Owning a motorhome (lol) M. Making my own decisions with the freedom to do so. Freedom is many things to many people and one never to be taken for granted but enjoyed its what makes life worth living. Carol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 The only people that can say they have freedom are the few tribes left in the rain forests. Although they don't know yet that this will shortly end, with the onslaught of their habitat.They survive without money, clothes, umbrellas ect. Left alone they would continue to survive, but they would not be able to do this unless they had some form of education, that of learning how to hunt, make fire, fish, ect. That is total freedom, but not for me thanks.Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Hi, Hmmmm, my father told me that education is what you know when you have forgotten everything you have been taught. ??? A letter arrived, addressed to my lazy, no-good son. It looked interesting, so I woke him up and gave it to him. Minutes later, pandemonium ...... and off he went in his tatty Triumph Spitfire. We had a phone call that evening. He said he had a place at Roehampton Uni, and where could he stay? 8-) All on the strength of ONE A-level. He didn't even have a clean pair of socks with him. Whatever, he survived. Never bought a book. Spent his final year living NFA. Finished up owing the Student Loan people £1500. Never asked for a penny off us, but we kept his car legal. Does that count as "education"? He earned £50,000 in his first year in a proper job, then resigned to go to the Sydney Olympics, spent another year backpacking round Oz, then a few months living on the beach in Bali. Came home, got a job in a travel agents. It didn't pay a lot, but didn't interfere with his life either. Freedom? Then one Thursday, he phoned to say he was flying to Oz the following Wednesday, and didn't intend coming back. He is now on the same floor as the Govenor of Queensland, dealing with victims of sex crime, has apeared on TV, and has had tea and bikkies with the head honcho of QLD legal dept. It looks like he has swapped his stop-in-bed freedom for something more meaningful. I'm almost proud of him. He refuses to have a phone in his flat. Freedom? 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkc Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 It seems to be that no one wants to get their hands dirty these days. ----- Malcolm X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I've mentioned before that my hubby was 'retiring' at Christmas. A couple of days before he left they had a little gathering in his section and as he suspected they might do this, he prepared a little ditty, thought you might like to read it! Before you do, you need to know that he was the office supplies and stationery buyer: Lyreco and Niceday are suppliers and OLO means on line ordering. He managed to get through it ... just ... due mainly because a mobile phone rang just before the last 2 verses and broke the tension! I’ll miss you Where do I start, what do I say Well early ’79, was my very first day Work was steady, work was quite still I remember some days that we had to kill 30 years here, sat on my bum Doing what’s needed, to be done From 50 odd through to 300k Delivered by Lyreco, remember Niceday? A lot has altered, I’ve seen many things Changes a plenty and all that it brings Though - it’s not such a bad place to spend your life It was even here I met my dear wife! Colleagues, mates, pals and friends Everything starts, everything ends But move along, is what I must do So goodbye to Helen, John, Sam and you I know you’ll manage, I know you can You see my friends I hatched a plan But by now - you’re sure to know As you’re having to use, OLO My exit route is that big open door I won’t be coming back no more It’s not the end I’ve just begun Hey I’m 51 and far too young So I’ll bid you well as off I trot I think by now I’ve said my lot Places await me off in the sun And I’m planning to have lots of fun So what now, what lies ahead? Good times I’m sure though a few tears I’ll shed One thing is certain I know it’s true Whatever happens I’ll miss you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 And this is one that I wrote and sent to the Divisional manager with my letter of resignation when I left the Pru in 1992. A copy remained on the local office notice board for several years afterwards - so I was told! Fare was a system we used that was spectacularly useless and Newmarch was the company CEO at the time who doubled his own pay whilst cutting ours - efficiency savings he reckoned! The Prudential was and remains a company of high integrity and honesty which is more than could be said of it's managers in the 80s and 90s! The time has come to let you know I've had enough and need to go the gulf grows wider by the day twixt my old style and Pru's new way For many years I've trod the path supported well by local staff so no more crazy modem systems Reading - Bristol - I won't miss 'em New rules appear from leaders who don't give a toss for me or you they pay themselves just what they like and sod us lot 'cos they're alright I'll do the job right to the end it can't now drive me round the bend it's not the work that I can't bear it's attempts to manage us by fear With no regrets and much relief I'm off to find a nicer life no more targets, meetings or 'fare' KPIs and bulls**t all disappear I'll leave the admin and the books in condition that I should have took it over when the changes were born and I began to feel forlorn There's not a system that we use that works so well we can enthuse designed by pratts with no idea of those whose lives they interfere You just can't trust this company who with hold our pay and when we see what's wrong they stall and still don't pay perhaps they hope we'll go away? When i look back on how things changed no wonder that I feel deranged workload, expenses, pensions too is nothing safe from the 'newmarch' coup I'll have no more of this charade mistrust, deception, London made the last word goes to Prudence, she helped me to see 'I want to be FREE'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 A disquieting feeling deep in my waters tells me it may be what we last had, warts and all, in 1996, what we have very much less of now and what we may eventually lose completely to religious or political autocracy. On a lighter note, it's what I thought I bought into in June 2007 when I acquired a shiny new motorhome, but then found I couldn't park it to visit a shop in the UK and usually, when I look at the Caravan Club website, can't find somewhere to sleep in it either........... Bob *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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