KD1 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I own a left hand drive coach built on a 3 litre engine that I imported from Germany. The van is 8.5 metres long and is 5 ton. It was registered in June 2007 and has had its annual service in June 2008 and 09. The vehicle has covered 26,000 kms which is just over 16,000 miles. I am now in Spain and last week I noticed that the clutch was slipping. The bottom line is that Fiat UK do not want to know as its out of warranty and I am facing a bill for just under 1,000 euros to replace the clutch, pressure plate and oil seal. Has anybody else encountered the same problem with the clutch and if so what was the outcome? Luckily I have not experienced the shuddering in reverse gear. Also the mileage covered has been mostly on motorways and normal A class roads and not alpine passes etc. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated as obviously due to the low mileage I would expect the clutch to last a lot longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 There have been reports of early clutch failure on a number of SEVEL X/250-based motorhomes fitted with the 3.0litre motor and manual gearbox. These incidents normally seem to have occurred quite soon after initial purchase and on vehicles that displayed the juddering characteristic. As far as I'm aware, the failed clutches were all repaired under warranty. See also pages 10 onwards of http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17666&start=271 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Derek Uzzell - 2010-01-03 5:40 PM As far as I'm aware, the failed clutches were all repaired under warranty. I don't think so, I've not kept count but seems about 50% of reported cases are fixed under warrenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 colin - 2010-01-03 9:57 PM Derek Uzzell - 2010-01-03 5:40 PM As far as I'm aware, the failed clutches were all repaired under warranty. I don't think so, I've not kept count but seems about 50% of reported cases are fixed under warrenty. If you've not kept count, how can you make any sort of credible assessment? I would expect a clutch failure occurring, say, within a couple of month's of a new motorhome (whatever its make of chassis) being purchased and within a couple of thousand miles of use, to be treated as a 'mechanical failure' qualifying as an under-warranty repair, unless it's patently obvious that the vehicle's driver has savagely abused the clutch. This is the sort of information that it would be helpful to have immediately available to existing and prospective owners of X/250-based motorhomes. Although complete and accurate data regarding the treatment of warranty claims will be held only by the vehicle manufacturers (and they are hardly likely to release them), I would anticipate that Andy Stothert should be able to say how many of the cases reported to him involving clutch/transmission failures on 3.0litre-engined Fiats/Peugeots have been fixed under warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Happy New Year, You will require a new clutch which is part number 504308884 which sold in November 2009 for 276.00 + vat but a 'reconditioned' item is available also at 169.19 + vat for part number 71793642. Insist on the dealer ordering the recon one and you will almost certainly receive a new one anyway since there are none being reconditioned yet. You will also need a slave cylinder 55207502 which last year sold for 55.21 + vat. All prices are GBP. The job takes about 6 hours so at a reasonable labour rate of about £70 per hour for a franchised dealer you should be paying no more than £800 to £850 inc vat in the UK (allowing for some increase in prices). I am not the least bit surprised that the clutch has failed early as the vehicle was designed to be a 3.5T or 4T and not 5T! What do you expect? A 5T camper built on a FWD van chassis is just plain daft, but that is just my opinion. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 colin - 2010-01-03 9:57 PM I don't think so, I've not kept count but seems about 50% of reported cases are fixed under warrenty. As not all faults have been reported on this or any other forum then it is impossible to know or count the real figure. Unless FIAT come clean, and that ain't going to happen much before the dinasours return to Earth. So an estimate from Colin at least gives those who have a problem some idea of the situation. And Euroserv, thankyou, gives us real life resolutions with his experience, part numbers and costs. On your own with no one to turn to when you are up against a major manufacturer is a very lonely place. So please give credit where it is due, no one is perfect, we all just try to help. NO ONE on this forum wants to hurt anyone else. Happy, Prosperous and safe travelling New Year to All mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 As Derek and Mike point out none of us have any real clue as to numbers any longer. Fiat were indeed replacing early clutch failures on the 3 litre models under warranty but there have been three cases just lately in which Fiat have refused to replace the clutch under warranty on 3 litre manual transmission vehicles having covered less than 30,000 miles. The present case in question is Weldted's on the long running Transmission Defect thread. I wouldn't want to appear to be thinking in a suspcious manner about Fiat's good intentions but they do seem to have hardened their attitude recently towards the remaining unhappy owners of both 3 litre and 2.3 litre vans as they are now a much smaller number. As though customer satisfaction is only important when there enough folk whinging to damage them. Nick keeps banging on about the unsuitability of FWD chassis for big coachbuilt motorhome applications and for some reason nobody seems to be picking up on this. Putting the driving wheels at the front when all the weight is on the back axle makes a nonsense of common sense, logic and transmission design. The stupid thing is that what FWD van should be capable of efficiently - reversing up hills - Fiat have even managed to completely cock up by adopting a gearbox designed originally for a car and fitted with a ludicrously high reverse gear. But if Fiat sell the FWD chassis to carry a 5 ton MGW then it should be capable of doing the job. Though only God knows how. Before this matter came out in the open, when I was being polite to them and just a concerned single voice with no axe to grind, and I had several discussions with the technical people at Fiat UK, and one of them offered the opinion that the gearbox (a Peugeot design) would need to be completely redesigned to accommodate a reverse gear lower than 1st and that with a 6 speed box in a FWD layout this would be almost impossible without altering the structure of the van to fit a larger box. FWD may indeed be a lot more convenient for the motorhome manufacturers to build upon, is cheaper for Fiat (and the rest) to build, can be easier to drive, and yes, it does have some advantages in crosswinds etc, but using it for big heavy vans is a nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Hi Andy, I have followed your excellent campaign with Fiat. Because of the adverse publicity, I purposely bought an older model Fiat instead of 2007 onwards model. The cost was not important but the peace of mind was. As has been mentioned before, these models will be around for a lot of years and unsuspecting future owners may buy an expensive lemon. Would it be too difficult for a future owner to retrofit a 2.8jtd engine and 5 speed box into a newer model? I know this would not be cheap but would be a one off operation. It is also liable to be offset because many people will shy away from affected models and their resale value may be compromised. Present owners may want to do this if they thought it would end their problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Even older Fiat's suffer gearbox problems - not judder but a weak 5th gear which is a result of a design fault that restricts oil getting into the separate casing where 5th gear is housed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 747 - 2010-01-04 7:20 PM Would it be too difficult for a future owner to retrofit a 2.8jtd engine and 5 speed box into a newer model? I know this would not be cheap but would be a one off operation. It is also liable to be offset because many people will shy away from affected models and their resale value may be compromised. Producing the sort of hybrid you are proposing is the sort of thing an avid kit-car enthusiast might contemplate as an entertaining intellectual challenge. I believe the simple answer is that the task would be so difficult as to be considered impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Mike88 - 2010-01-04 7:25 PM Even older Fiat's suffer gearbox problems - not judder but a weak 5th gear which is a result of a design fault that restricts oil getting into the separate casing where 5th gear is housed. There were indeed plenty of reports of 5th-gear problems on Ducato/Boxer vehicles fitted with 2.5litre and 2.8litre motors. Many and various reasons were offered, of which restricted oil supply was just one. A redesigned gearbox was introduced in, I think, 2002 that (as far as I'm aware) provided a complete cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 747 - 2010-01-04 7:20 PM Would it be too difficult for a future owner to retrofit a 2.8jtd engine and 5 speed box into a newer model? I know this would not be cheap but would be a one off operation. It is also liable to be offset because many people will shy away from affected models and their resale value may be compromised. Present owners may want to do this if they thought it would end their problems. The cheapest and easiest option would be to buy a Fiat with the 3 litre engine and Comfortmatic (auto) gearbox. To date there have been no reported problems with this combination. Such a solution would also provide a better option in terms of resale value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Mike88 You are right about the comfortmatic option. The extra cost of this option I believe to be very expensive. Its long term reliability is also unproven as yet. I believe that a retrofit engine job is not so difficult mechanically and anyone who sets up in business to do so will be kept busy. The biggest problem may be the canbus system as fitted to the newer vans. Do the experts on here regard self build vans in the same category as kit cars? I have heard of no common and serious reliability problems with them. Many years ago, the owner of a chain of dealerships advised me on a personal level never to buy a brand new car if the manufacturers said it was `years ahead of its time` or `revolutionary`. This is in the 70`s and 80`s, the era of the Allegro and its contemporaries. He said with every launch, he would have numerous problems with customers and his staff would be stretched for months. I felt it was good advice and it has stuck with me. This is 2010 and the affected vehicles are starting to come out of warranty. This may be a factor if there is a change in attitude by Fiat. I do not believe in any change of attitude as there has been a variation in customer satisfaction with the 2.3 units. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I think the simple answer is not to buy a used one unless you have tried it yourself and are satisfied that the necessary modifications have been done. Any dealer that expects to sell an affected vehicle without undertaking due dilligence in so far as ensuring that it is fit for purpose is not likely to do much business with enlightened customers. I would hope. Vehicles built after April 2009 should be ok though as they have modified gearboxes from the outset; however this does not apply to 3.0 versions because there are no mods available at all. On the subject of retrofitting the 2.8JTD unit, this would not only require a replacement of engine, gearbox, drive-shafts and brakes and suspension and dashboard and ECU and all of the body computers and most of the sensors would be incompatible too. I think what I am saying is ... NO. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 If 'Sevel's' produced after April 2009 are 'ok' (except the 3litre manual version) how long will it take these vehicles to be available and converted ? more importantly how would we (Joe Public) be able to tell a an 'Old ' one from a 'post april 2009' one ? this is important, and I am sure many people would like to know the answer. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Ray, The only way to know is from the chassis number. From this we can pop the number into the parts system and Fiat dealers can check with the warranty system to find the build date. So far I have received only 2 chassis numbers to check and neither were later than April 2009 so I have no idea which chassis numbers signal the change without using the parts system.... yet. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi all. Tell me, I may be wrong here, but I thought the Comformatic was a manual clutch and gearbox that was operated automatically, if so,and it works ok, why does it have problems in manual only mode.? Cheers. Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Brian, That seems to be the million dollar question because the gearbox and ratios are exactly the same. The only answer that I can come up with is that the automated part is better at operating the clutch than humans are, but it is able to alter the torque output of the engine during operation so it does have a slight advantage. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 The kind of technology which started life as ABS a few years back has enabled this robot change auto manual not only to alter the torque instantly in a controlled environment (no driver to mess with the clutch) but it also means that the computer can engage and release the clutch or change its optimium point of contact hundreds of times a second. No human foot can (even Wayne Rooney's) can do anything like this. I want one of these Ducato autos but no way will I be buying another Fiat until they sort out the problems owners are still having. Whilst Fiat do seem to have fitted the modifications into production 2.3 litre vehicles the results still aren't entirely convincing, and whilst most owners may not have any problems with the current production box after using ours in steep places several times since the mods were fitted I'm still very unhappy about this van's capabilties in extreme places. A small van like ours should be capable of being used on any public highway where it is legally entitled to drive, and these Fiats are plainly not up to the job of being used regularly in such situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I had the same problem with mine 2007 160 multijet fiat uk paid for the parts and I payed for the labour in the end. It started to slip when i was in Portugal and as I got the service there asked them to check warranty for me and was told it was only a year when abroad so it would be better for me to be get it sorted back home, a new clutch in Portugal would have cost £800 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 could you clarify your statment when abroad it is only a year for the warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 When I was getting the service in Portugal I asked about my clutch they told me it was going and as it was over a year old it was not in warranty I explained that I had 2 years warranty which I showed them so they contacted Fiat in Italy and were told that I would have to pay for it. They recommended that I take it back to the uk and see if I could get it sorted there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 euroserv - 2010-01-05 4:24 PM Hi Brian, That seems to be the million dollar question because the gearbox and ratios are exactly the same. The only answer that I can come up with is that the automated part is better at operating the clutch than humans are, but it is able to alter the torque output of the engine during operation so it does have a slight advantage. Nick And mine drives like a dream. Reverses without complaint and with complete control. Maybe later I may have a different view, but for now I will carry on enjoying it touring Spain etc.>:-) Roy Fuller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 That seems to be the answer then, if you paid out the extra for the 'Comfortamatic' you are OK , If you didn't , Fiat don't want to know you. Very encouraging ! Will I EVER buy a 'Sevel' Not on your Nelly ! Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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