david lloyd Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 spospe - 2010-01-29 3:54 PM I ask yet again. If the 3 litre has the same engine, gearbox and clutch in manual and auto form then how come the auto does not judder and the manual does? It can only mean that the auto does a better job of slipping the clutch than a human driver and this means either... a) That FIAT are quite right in blaming the judder on driver error, or b) That the clutch is not going to last very long as a result of slippage. Which is it? I have no idea, to be honest, but it is really good. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garf Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Our is on the 2.3ltr and it flys, even with three adults and three grandkids on board. A Morello on a Merc looses quite a bit of interior space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Spospe, I cannot answer this question, nor do i think anyone can. It is simply a matter of faith, magic or witchcraft. Accept it as good. You would stand a better chance of proving the existance of God or that Father Christmas does not exist. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Jaymaycee, The MMM tester Di Johnson and her husband are great fans of the Murvi Morello and last year updated theirs to the 'Post 2006' version. They test A LOT of different motorhome types and base vehicles and they chose a 'New' Morello with a 3 Litre engine AND the Comfortamatic gearbox, now they presumably talk to and know many people in the motorcaravan press and industry. But WE (on the Forums) all have our own axes to grind ( I have a 'pathological dislike of anything Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen.) But personally, if someone like Di Johnson is prepared to pay out their own hard earned money for a product, then their choice should be taken note of. People who have ignored all the Advice/warnings/hints about the 2.3 litre 6 speed manual gearboxed versions some seem happy Not being able to reverse up hills, some are happy having their pride and joy 'Mucked around with' until it can, others are just keeping their fingers crossed ! The owners of 3 litre versions with Manual boxes are being ignored (hence my dislike of Fiat etc.,) Choose Wisely ! good Luck ! Ray :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadows Engine Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I have a Murvi 3Ltr auto and it’s a great motor caravan and can indeed legally seat 6 belted passengers as well as the driver. However your passengers at a nominal 75kg each will weigh 450kg! So if this is your intention you will need the Maxi chassis and also to take up the option of up-rating it from 3500kg to 3900kg. On the camper assist Front, some of you may remember I raised this with Fiat almost exactly a year ago and was told PVC don’t get it because they are considered commercial vehicles and a great deal of work was done by fellow forum members on the subject. In the end I just gave in and paid for the AA my self. However following up other problems with Fiat last week I spoke to their MD and then his Customer relations manager who advised me that it didn’t matter if the motorhome was based on a chassis cab or a van both were eligible for the camper assist scheme provided the converter had entered into an understanding with Fiat that had on going financial implications for the converter. Which I took to mean if they don’t pay you don’t get and as all costs filter down to the customer, if its not included in the cost of your motorhome then you don’t get it. Well that is understandable , if only they had told us that a year ago! John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymaycee Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 mike 202 - 2010-01-29 9:48 AM jaymaycee - 2010-01-24 8:19 PM Thank you so much everyone this is very helpfull still just a little niggle that when we're fully loaded with four mostly adult children (we're all good sized people!- not light weights) in the back if they want a free ride to edinburgh in august we'll still be willing it up the hills and wishing we'd got a 3l? Jan Jan, looks like you want to carry yourself + husband/partner plus 4 children ---- This makes a total of 6 passengers - You will be ILLEGAL & DANGEROUS without the provision of 6 seatbelts and the appropriate forward facing seats. So your choice is A) limit the passengers: B) look at a different Van/Motorhome. So stay safe, and make sure that your choice covers your needs. Good luck Mike Hi Mike thanks for your concern not expecting to carry the whole family very often at all one reason for choosing the murvi was that it is also a seven seater and yes we're getting the full complement of seat belts from reading everyone's posts, being fully loaded with the kids and their stuff is more an implication for the payload rather than the power of the engine But people do seem to go on a lot about the problem of judder which from earlier posts seems to have been addressed by fiat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 But people do seem to go on a lot about the problem of judder which from earlier posts seems to have been addressed by fiat? Jaymaycee, That is a good question ! the only way that you will really know is by reversing YOUR van (not the one from the showroom !) up a hill, although some have been known to judder/shake in reverse on the flat. Fiat have NOT said publically from XXXXXX date All 2.3 and 3 litre vehicles will be fitted with a (more realistic) lower reverse gear ratio (which requires a new gearbox casing and internals). We have a clue from a forum member 'Nick' (euroserv), who knows about these things, that after April 2009 vehicles coming off the assy. lines WERE fitted with a new type Gearbox, But we don't know if they LOOK any different ? So, NO, we don't know if they have definately fixed the problem yet. I'd still go for the 3 litre with the Comfortamatic gearbox. It takes a LOT of fuel used to make up for a £1000 clutch repair (not under warranty) and all the hassle that goes with it. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Rayjsj - 2010-01-31 2:09 PM Fiat have NOT said publically from XXXXXX date All 2.3 and 3 litre vehicles will be fitted with a (more realistic) lower reverse gear ratio (which requires a new gearbox casing and internals). Ray Has the 3 litre been fitted with a lower reverse gear as stated above? I don't think that there is a new casing either. I thought it was only the 2.3 that has the lower ratio fitted as Fiat seem to have denied any problem with the 3 litre even though we all know there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Mike, I'm as much in the dark as anyone else, I was just pointing out what Fiat HAVE NOT done, all of my info has come from websites and a mate of mine who bought one of the first 3 litre X250's, and still has it, but it has spent a lot of time off the road, and he still is very careful about having to reverse it. Just trying to assist 'Jaymaycee' on his/her decision, I think that as just about every 'New' van is mounted on a Sevel chassis, buyers should be aware of all the problems past and present and not 'Sleepwalk' into a problem. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Rayjsj - 2010-01-31 2:36 PM Mike, I think that as just about every 'New' van is mounted on a Sevel chassis, buyers should be aware of all the problems past and present and not 'Sleepwalk' into a problem. Ray You're right there. Because of the lack of choice of base vehicle I have bought a Fiat with a Comfortmatic gearbox but have not yet taken delivery. I'm waiting with trepidation for problems with the Comfortmatic to emerge but so far so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadows Engine Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 One advantage of having a motorhome PVC built for you is you have the opportunity to test it and check it is not afflicted with the dreaded judder before it is converted, rather than find it has the problem when its too late. Last year we did approx 9000miles in our 3Ltr Auto and it has done everything asked of it smooth as silk. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirage Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 We have a PVC with a 2.3L Engine more than adequate far more umph than our 1.4L Honda. The 3L does reduce your payload by another 50Kg ? you might check that on the Fiat Website but recall something around that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Pay load no problem for me. We travel light and we think very carefully about everything we take as we've always had a panel van where space is at a premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Rayjsj - 2010-01-31 2:09 PM Jaymaycee, That is a good question ! the only way that you will really know is by reversing YOUR van (not the one from the showroom !) up a hill, although some have been known to judder/shake in reverse on the flat. Fiat have NOT said publically from XXXXXX date All 2.3 and 3 litre vehicles will be fitted with a (more realistic) lower reverse gear ratio (which requires a new gearbox casing and internals). We have a clue from a forum member 'Nick' (euroserv), who knows about these things, that after April 2009 vehicles coming off the assy. lines WERE fitted with a new type Gearbox, But we don't know if they LOOK any different ? So, NO, we don't know if they have definately fixed the problem yet. I'd still go for the 3 litre with the Comfortamatic gearbox. It takes a LOT of fuel used to make up for a £1000 clutch repair (not under warranty) and all the hassle that goes with it. Ray I did not say that. Only the 2.2 and 2.3 versions have revised gearboxes from April 2009. None of the 3.0 variants have had any changes at all to the gearboxes, clutches or anything else for that matter. The gearbox part number is cunningly hidden behind where the nearside engine mount is fitted so it is not possible to determine which box is fitted without entering the chassis number into the parts system or dealer warranty system. I have not seen one of the modified gearboxes yet but imagine that it will look exactly the same as new castings are immensely expensive to produce and all the changes will be inside. Nick PS. Whatever Fiat say about it, the actual weight penalty from 2.3 to 3.0 is 60kg and a further 10kg for the comfortmatic option. PPS. As a fully loaded panel van the fuel penalty from 2.3 to 3.0 is only 2 or 3 mpg and with the comfortmatic no more than 1 mpg worse than without. PPPS. I recently drove the comfortmatic with full loads and without on fresh snow, compacted snow and ice with few of the anticipated difficulties often associated with auto's. The standard traction control used while manually changing up as soon as possible to 2nd and 3rd gears gave a good measure of control (even going backwards on a slope) with the only issue being the somewhat abrupt downchanges when you did not really want them if you put it back into auto. (It felt like the front wheels might lock up but they did not). Never got into any bother at all and very pleasantly surprised. I was ready to reduce the tyre pressures if necessary but it was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron. Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Several members have stated the opinion that the Fiat Comfoirtmatic does not 'judder'. This is not so, I know of two that do and quite badly at that. It's also worse if a Comfortmatic is so effected as you don't have a clutch to slip and ease the problem. Why should they not judder, they are exactly the same engine and gearbox as the Manuel version? I think that Comfortmatic owners might be keeping quite on this or that there aren't enough of them around as yet for the truth to come out. So don't jump out of the frying pan into the fire - they all judder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 This is the first time we have heard of a Comfortmatic judderer. Every person who owns one or I have read about do not admit to such a problem. On that basis I've ordered one. Is it possible to provide further details of a Comfortmatic judderer? Are these motorhomes and if so what type? What age are the motorhomes and at what mileage did the judder start? Have any of the people you know about taken a judderer back to the dealers and if so what did they say. Before I believe this is a problem that affects all Comfortmatic's I shall reserve judgement so any information you can provide will be helpful. I expect Andy and Eursoserve will also be interested for further details as will those who own Comfortmatic's and those like me who are awaiting delivery. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron. Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Mike - When I said that "they all shudder" I did not mean all Comfortmatics shudder but that all versions of the X250 chassis do, including the Comfortmatics. Sorry if if I mislead you. For legal reasons I cannot elaborate further at the moment as the least said the better. My post was to alert other members to the fact that some Comfortmatics do suffer the problem and therefore they can proceed with caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Ron. That's fine and thanks. However, the information you have provided is so significant that there are many who might be concerned. I am for sure. Surely you could answer the questions I have asked as I am not asking for anything specific so I cannot see how legality can enter into it. Let's put it another way if you are concerned about saying too much. How certain are you that the vehicles in question are Comfortmatic's?. We know of course that the gearbox is identical to the 3 litre vesion which does judder in some instances but Andy and Nick of Euroserve have said that they have been unable to get the Comfortmatic to judder and put this down to the software that controls auto clutch movement. There have also been articles in the magazines which seem to confirm this point. Anything you can tell us will be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron. Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Mike - I can assure you that I know the difference between a Fiat 3.0L manual and the Comfortmatic version. As to Andy and Nick not having found a Comfortmatic that judders I imaging is a matter of numbers tested and the fact that the auto's are still thin on the ground. I can only say that I am totally confident that the matter is as I have stated, some Comfortmatics judder, and time will prove the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainbow-Chasers Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The 3.0 litre will give better fuel economy and pulling power, and be more popular for these reasons come resale time - the engine will also last longer as you are not straining it. There is no better time to buy an auto, in my opinion. As people realise, they manual dual mass cost as much if not more than an autobox repair, I think people will soon change to autos! Most drive manuals predominantly due to cost of clutch replacement against torque converter replacement. Now that clutch replacement is coming in at £1500-2000, I think a £600 torque converter sounds more appealing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Rainbow-Chasers' - 2010-02-12 9:04 PM The 3.0 litre will give better fuel economy and pulling power, and be more popular for these reasons come resale time - the engine will also last longer as you are not straining it. There is no better time to buy an auto, in my opinion. As people realise, they manual dual mass cost as much if not more than an autobox repair, I think people will soon change to autos! Most drive manuals predominantly due to cost of clutch replacement against torque converter replacement. Now that clutch replacement is coming in at £1500-2000, I think a £600 torque converter sounds more appealing The auto in this case has a standard dual mass friction clutch with some computerised 'gubbins' to change gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron. Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Colins reply brings up another point concerning the Fiat Comfortmatic, that of the hill start facility. If holding stationary on a hill with your footbreak the system gives you a couple of seconds to come of the brake and onto the accelerator before gradually releasing the brakes. Without the hill start facility,or a torque converter, you will either simply roll backwards when you release the footbrake or have to resort to handbreak starts all the time. The latter is OK but could get very tedious if you are stuck in something like a slow moving uphill traffic jam for any length of time. Also I have never been a lover of Fiats handbrakes,on performance or positioning, and come a very steep hill .... The problem is that the hill start comes only as an option as part of Fiats Anti Slip (ASR) system and so must be specified when ordering as it cannot be retro fitted. If you don't request it with the auto you won't get it. My own view is that it should be supplied as standard with the auto as it makes such a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 What about Disabled people who buy automatics to use only hand controls ?? does this mean that 'Foot intervention' is required ? ie. no-one has three hands. Accelerator/ brake/ handbrake it just ain't possible. I thought that this 'Automatic' was only differant in that no torque converter was present, and apart from that it's operation was the same ?? obviously not.... not an automatic at all then really. The creeping foward in traffic,without 'foot intervention' whether uphill or not is an essential requirement for disabled motorists, which is why they buy Auto's in the first place. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron. Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Ray - Your mention of foot intervention reminds me that there is another way, use the left foot in place of the right for the footbreak. However, this must be a bit of a performance I would imagine. All this is still no good for the disabled though is it? However, I would have thought that being a software driven system the Hill Start facility could be easily adapted to suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 X250's and handbrakes! The standard wvm handbrake I can just about live with, but when you get convertors like WildAx bending the mounting bracket to clear seat swivel I dispare >:-( Auto's and left foot braking. This is not for everybody, most when first doing this will be very heavy on braking, but you do get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.