thebishbus Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Hi all. My interest in this has been aroused after reading recent threads in Hints & tips & Motorhome Matters on A-Frame towing. Last year at Lincoln I watched demonstation of A-Frame towing/manoeuvreing on the field, the combination seemed to handle very well, including reversing. At the time I did not consider ever doing this, as when we are away in our M.H. we use bikes and public transport to move around. I have a P.V.T car that through business commitments and other priorities has been laid-up in my garage for the last 40 years! sad init. Now I have become a full member of the old codgers brigade, I realise time is running out. Think's, I must get the car running again and have some pleasure from it before it is to late, plus my son has his eyes on it as a wedding car. What I am thinking of doing, is towing it with the M.H. to car rallies, then staying over, using the car for sightseeing around the area. The question is this, modern cars have I.F.S. and seem to trail very well, whereas my car has a beam axle,king pins and leaf springs, will it still trail as modern cars do, or do I forget the idea.? Regards. Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Some of the factors to consider are: Is the MTW (maximum train weight as shown in the second line of the VIN plate)) of your 'van sufficient to cope with the weight of your PVT (post vintage thoroughbred ). Legally anything towed becomes a trailer and the brakes must work and automatically allow reversing. A PVTs mechanical brakes need a hefty shove, plenty of issues to resolve there. Towing on an A frame will impose the towed vehicles 70 +years old suspension and steering to forces the designer had no reason to consider. The phrase experimental engineering springs to mind. If train wight permits a suitable trailer gets over most issues (at aprice). Ps Don't keep us in suspense whats the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randonneur Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Thanks George, I was wondering what a PVT was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 From memory , The Vintage Car Club considered that car design with a few exceptions went downhill after 1930. These exceptions were than classified as As PVTs Typically some models of Alvis, Lagonda, Frazer Nash, Lancia, Alfa Romeo to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Hi, The RAF taught me that you should not tow a car with a synchomesh gearbox. The bearing between the primary (clutch) shaft and the main (output) shaft is lubricated by the rotation of the lay shaft. If the engine is not turning, the lay shaft is not turning. But if the wheels are turning the main shaft is turning. I was nearly put on a technical "fizzer", but luckily the driver confirmed that the gearbox was faulty before I towed him home. Having said that, I do tow cars long distances. I do not know how/if this applies to modern FWD cars, but I understand that Hillman Imps suffered the exact opposite. New owner would start his car, and leave it ticking over to warm up. But in their case lubrication came from the main shaft, which didn't turn while car was stationary. As the factory test drivers (apprentices?) usually switched on and floored the accelerator, they never met this problem during trials. So what is theis PVT? Anything exotic? My mate has had an MG TC in bits in his garage since 1972. Don't ask, his daughter wants it in his will. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 The MG TC fails the test for PVT see the list of eligable cars at : www.vscc.co.uk/vsccweb/membership/default.jsp?PageID... At one time the bearing between the gearbox input and output shfts was just a plain bronze bush but most are now have the much more robust needle roller type. With the exception of a direct drive top gear type box (virtually obsolete most superceded by the all indirect type) , in use there is always speed of rotation difference between the input and output shafts and presumably the bearing can cope. Ps My retirement project a 47 Riley RMA Rolling chassis has decorated the garage since the mid 80s and I use the threat of leaving it to them in my will to keep my sons in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 The brakes on this car should not be a problem, they are very good non servo Lockheed tandem hydraulics, with 12" brake drums. Regarding the weight, that is why I was interested in A-frame towing to avoid dragging the extra trailer weight around. The mass of our Hymer 584 is 5200kg, we would run the van light to these events anyway. I do not know the weight of the car yet, but it is not to bad as it is an open tourer with an aluminium body. At this stage I was more interested in finding if it would trail and steer with the tugger as modern suspension does. Towing with synchromesh is no problem, the car has a 4 speed crash gearbox, double-de-clutch don't you know. My wife Kay learnt to drive in it, passed first time. The car was made by the original Triumph Motor Car Company and is recognised as a P.V.T. Oh the car is a very rare, in fact the only one there is:- 1936 2 ltr 6 cylinder Triumph Gloria Vitesse Tourer. Now it has emerged from its long hibernation I have taken some photos and will try to attach them, but since I changed from XP to Vista, this thing seems to have a mind of its own. Regards. Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 no luck with the photos, will try again sometime Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 My twopennethworth, for what it's worth. If I wanted to tow a modern car around behind my van then I might consider A framing it if needing to keep within weight constrictions. For a vintage/rare vehicle I don't think so. If it had any historic significance then I would be most reluctant to modding the front for an A frame, but mainly because of the wear in the drive chain components. Most manual cars that I'm aware of can be happily towed on there wheels as the gearboxes are splash lubricated, the big no no is slush boxes which have a pump driven by the input shaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Triumph Gloria, nice car. Fitted with the Coventry Climax over head inlet side exhaust valve engine I believe. Saw a pretty saloon at the Paignton green rally last year. I am rather suprised at the all crash box as by the mid 30s quite a number of the better cars had synchromesh on at least the upper ratios At a guess the Gloria weigh about 1400 kg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Hi Triumph Gloria? Last time I saw one of those was behind a pub near Dorking (possibly the Barley Mow). It had brambles growing through it, but don't get excited, this would have been circa 1956. And it wasn't a drop-head. Within a couple of miles there was a Mercedes saloon lying dying. Er .... rear engined. Also something sporty with a rose wod body and pre-selcect gearbox. Oh, if only I had know then ........ I would buy a very sturdy trailer for your car. OT .... but I found a Lea Francis lying in a pub in Scotland, under a pile of junk. Registration VC 400. I told my mate Mike Worthingtomn Williams. He phoned back to say it raced at Le Mans in 1929. Whatever, he published my photos. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 colin - 2010-01-31 2:00 PM Most manual cars that I'm aware of can be happily towed on there wheels as the gearboxes are splash lubricated, Shortly after typing this I turned off pute, locked the house up and sat in Suzi, I then thought "damn it I'm sitting in a manual box car that can't be A framed" doh! Some 4wd/awd vehicles cannot be A framed :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 We used to tow a Bond Mk G minicar on a bar (pre-cursor to the A-frame), the bar attached to the front wheel/engine mount (the engine was attached to the wheel itself and turned with the wheel!). We did this for a while but then decided to change to a trailer as it was much easier as we could manouvre as required, reversing wasn't a problem and it meant that the car could be well wrapped up with a cover to protect it from all the muck, stones etc which were thrown up from the road, which you can't really do when it's actually on the road itself. It also means that if some idiot happens to bump you/run in to the rear of the car, it's the trailer that suffers and not the car. We also found that towing it on the bar wore the steering mechanism (worm and sector - like a bit screw on a partial cog) and for older cars they were not easy to come by! If you value your car (which I'm sure you do) then I certainly would suggest that you do not tow it directly on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hi, I took a look thru the list of PVT eligible cars. Doh, my 1960 Land Rover ain't eligible cos it has disc brakes. :-D And a notched belt. Double Doh! 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted February 1, 2010 Author Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hi all. I still cannot attach my photos to this thread, but if anyone is interested in what a real/proper Triumph car looked like when under the design influence of people like, Frank Warner, Walter Belgrove and Donald Healey, before The Standard Car Company took over the marque after W.W.2 .I could e-mail them the photos, for them to attach for me. Yes, this was one of the last Triumph cars fitted with a crash-gearbox. Yes it has a Coventry Climax engine pre their racing days. Thank you for the interest and the replies, but no one has really answered my question, will it work ?? . I have just found the weight of the car is 1219 kg, so well within the limits. Regards. Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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