New Tyres Front or Rear? (re Have you ever worn out the tread on your tyres, Reloaded)

[Guest Tracker]

When I learnt to drive yonks ago my Dad took me out to a large carpark on a snowy day and taught me how to steer into a skid in a Ford Anglia (RWD).

Far from being counter intuitive I recall finding it intuitive - as did my son when I gave him the same opportunity in a Metro (FWD) some 30 years later!

I urge anyone who has never had the opportunity to do so to have a go either as above or at a skid pan - it could save your life.

That said I doubt a 3.5 tonne van in full rear wheel slide within the confines of a normal UK road would be as easy to control - far better not to go there in the first place.

[jhorsf]

I do find that Clive posting on this as he has, is wrong that is why i put the links on here people expect to get sound safe advice from a poster labelled an expert not the kind that one day may kill you or someone else . I just hope the people who know better are no where near me or mine when the rear comes unstuck through the superior knowledge they think they have that the new tyres go on the front.New tyres should always go on the rear this is not opinion folklaw or old wives tales it is FACT as instructed by EVERY tyre manufacturer ,how this is not relevant to some people I do not understand.

[teflon2]

Just watched the websites suggested by jhorsf top one typical misdirection by presenter the black car is on the inside line e.g tuning sharper the driver also either deliberately or by accident runs on the white line which has less grip when wet (TRY TOUCHING IT ON A WET RACE CIRCUIT). The second website has a disclaimer which accepts that the information may be incorrect. I like tracker rotate all 5 tyres on my motorhome so all my tyres have similar tread depths. The answer is realy to drive to the conditions at the time and obseve the road picture. At least the discussion shows we care about road safety even if we dissagree at times. 8-)

[jhorsf]

teflon2 - 2010-02-04 8:28 PM

 

Just watched the websites suggested by jhorsf top one typical misdirection by presenter the black car is on the inside line e.g tuning sharper the driver also either deliberately or by accident runs on the white line which has less grip when wet (TRY TOUCHING IT ON A WET RACE CIRCUIT). The second website has a disclaimer which accepts that the information may be incorrect. I like tracker rotate all 5 tyres on my motorhome so all my tyres have similar tread depths. The answer is realy to drive to the conditions at the time and obseve the road picture. At least the discussion shows we care about road safety even if we dissagree at times. 8-)

 

 

 

 

I think you have not got the point at all the black car is oversteering the white understeering .

thats why the black car turns sharper then looses control and the white car drifts across the road but still gets round the corner if you cannot see that I give up

[rupert123]

jhorsf - 2010-02-05 3:07 PM

 

teflon2 - 2010-02-04 8:28 PM

 

Just watched the websites suggested by jhorsf top one typical misdirection by presenter the black car is on the inside line e.g tuning sharper the driver also either deliberately or by accident runs on the white line which has less grip when wet (TRY TOUCHING IT ON A WET RACE CIRCUIT). The second website has a disclaimer which accepts that the information may be incorrect. I like tracker rotate all 5 tyres on my motorhome so all my tyres have similar tread depths. The answer is realy to drive to the conditions at the time and obseve the road picture. At least the discussion shows we care about road safety even if we dissagree at times. 8-)

 

 

 

 

I think you have not got the point at all the black car is oversteering the white understeering .

thats why the black car turns sharper then looses control and the white car drifts across the road but still gets round the corner if you cannot see that I give up

 

I would give up. I agree with teflon2 about this video, already made my own observations on it in an earlier post.

[Clive]

I never claimed to be an expert on Tyres - Honest!! I actually said I was NOT an expert on tyres in my second post.

My own viewpoint was based on experiences at MVEE Chobham on the skid pan with a MINI (Mk1) on may occasions while vehicle testing over a couple of years and also a day at the Rally driving school at Silverstone. A significant birthday present. Then there was the time I gave the BMW too much wellie on a roundabout!! Tail out, oposite lock, whip back, same lock, pray, and it straightened out. Then folowed half an hour of ear ache.

 

I know that others (retired traffic cop) more experienced in these matters disagree with my personal viewpoint for various reasons.

 

But I still remain to be convinced to have worst tyres on the steer and primary braking axle is the best choice.

 

Over!

 

 

(I have now ducked)

 

NOT a tyre expert OK.

 

 

[trooper]

I missed out one point in my last post.

These tests were on large American cars I believe, rear wheel drive, no weight at the back,

Very heavy V8 engine (no doubt) in front, a recipe for rear wheel slides, ask any van driver who drives empty vans in wet or hilly conditions. Would the results be the same on modern FWD

motors, as are most of our M/Hs?. Me, I am a 4WD enthusiast so change all tyres together

on my main car.

[MotoHomer]

Well that's stirred things up! Very interesting responses.

Point 1 - the advice referred to in my orignal post to always fit best tyres on the rear came from several independent and authoritative sources as detailed and was consistent across all. The video link (Vicky B-H one) is also consistent although I have a sneaking suspicion she could have caught the slide if she'd wanted to especially as she knew it was coming! As an explanation of my otherwise inexplicable incident, it all fits. In the past I too had followed the seemingly logical practice of having my best tyres fitted to the front wheels of my front wheel drive cars on the basis that these wheels steer, transmit the power and do the lion's share of the braking. I accept that I was sadly misguided in this. You live and learn and, for me, this is a pretty clear cut issue, accepting the expert opinions.

Interestingly, one of my experts said that the large volume of water displaced by the very efficient front tyres was likely to have made things much more difficult for the less well endowed rears, increasing the risk of them letting go. One clear moral is to replace tyres well before they're even approaching the legal minimum.

Incidentally, pressures were spot on - very careful about this - and the car had just been garage serviced.

 

Point 2 - Hi Clive! Re slow reactions etc. that's an entirely fair point to raise. However ..... steering clear, so to speak, of too much boring detail, living in t' North and having driven professionally for over 30 years I've had plenty of experience of negotiating slippery stuff and this has unavoidably included dealing with front and rear breakaways, sometimes both simultaneously. I know the theory and have practiced the practice to the extent that it's long been second nature. I'm mid 50's with, I reckon, quick reactions (I need them for some of the other things I do....) and I've never been caught out before. There's always a first time of course but in all honesty I don't think this was it. Take it from me, speed was also not an issue!

 

Point 3 - leaving expert opinion aside for a moment, assuming the older tyres weren't up to the conditions, which axle fitment would be the most dangerous in event of breakaway? Had they been on the front the car would have understeered. Understeer is designed into mainstream cars as the safest handling characteristic, one which most drivers would manage to control. Oversteer, which is what mine did (most oddly as it was a front wheel drive performance variant with normally beautiful handling - this was not a hard turn-in, power-off situation by the way) is accepted to be the more difficult to control and more dangerous. It is also what my "panel" said would happen with best tyres fitted to the front axle.

 

My wish is to highlight the issue and pass on a little advice benefitting from personal experience and, more importantly, independent expert opinion, this latter aspect being key. In my opinion!

[lennyhb]

trooper - 2010-02-05 5:09 PM

 

I missed out one point in my last post.

These tests were on large American cars I believe, rear wheel drive, no weight at the back,

Very heavy V8 engine (no doubt) in front, a recipe for rear wheel slides, ask any van driver who drives empty vans in wet or hilly conditions. Would the results be the same on modern FWD

motors, as are most of our M/Hs?. Me, I am a 4WD enthusiast so change all tyres together

on my main car.

 

One clip showed a BMW but in the test both cars were FWD & not much bigger than an average European family salon.

 

 

[Brambles]

Interesting - note in follwing video link how many times it is always the rear end that slides out.

 

Only posting for the pretty young lady water skiing!

[Brambles]

Here is the perfect video clip for demonstrating why better on rear.

[Brambles]

Another rear slide. Would you rather have better tyres on front or rear?

 

[Brambles]

http://drive2ski.com/modules/video/show_video_nug.php?id_vdo=5&keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=550&width=650

 

The relevant bit in this video is note near end of video what the car does with better tyres (wintertyres) only on front. I liken this to better 'normal' tyres on front. It is always teh same in every video I find, if the less grip at rear then the rear end slides and you have loss of control.

[trooper]

Brambles - 2010-02-07 11:49 AM

 

http://drive2ski.com/modules/video/show_video_nug.php?id_vdo=5&keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=550&width=650

 

The relevant bit in this video is note near end of video what the car does with better tyres (wintertyres) only on front. I liken this to better 'normal' tyres on front. It is always teh same in every video I find, if the less grip at rear then the rear end slides and you have loss of control.

While I agree with the test as shown, Why turn off the abs,dont this solve some of the problem?.

Of my 3 motors, 2 have abs and asr and and other systems, 1 has just abs.

Its a fact that tests, like figures can be used to show the result you want. :-)

[Brambles]

To make the two test cars the same. ABS also will not help you in a rear slide.

[Basil]

I believe for the tests to be fair it was correct to defeat the ABS for the sake of equality in fact to have left it on would have made the test invalid. It would have been interesting though to have seen the same tests repeated with the ABS on one functioning against the one with no ABS as it would have shown what effect, if any, ABS has on the situation. However so far as I can see the only effect would have been on the braking test.

 

 

Bas

[Brambles]

Why would anyone doing the test want to fiddle the results, What would it achieve? If the good tyres are better on the front why not come out with it and say the tests showed front to be better.

 

[jhorsf]

Brambles give up, if knowing that every tyre manufacturer in the world has said the rear. (this is after years of testing by different people who work for different companies and have every test facility at there disposal , spend billions of pounds a year on testing) does not make you realise that saying put new tyres on the front is talking complete crap then let them go on thinking they know better your not going to get through (the lights may be on but no one is home)

[Brambles]

jhorsf - 2010-02-07 11:09 PM

 

Brambles give up, if knowing that every tyre manufacturer in the world has said the rear. (this is after years of testing by different people who work for different companies and have every test facility at there disposal , spend billions of pounds a year on testing) does not make you realise that saying put new tyres on the front is talking complete crap then let them go on thinking they know better your not going to get through (the lights may be on but no one is home)

 

Agreed.

 

Moth goes into the dentist and says he needs a new pair of specs. "Why did you come in here then, you need the optician next door?" Moth - " because the light was on". Totally irrelavent joke to thread - just you mentioning lights made it come to mind.

[handyman]

Almost the same thing applies with winter tyres on the front wheels only.

 

 

(More grip on the front than the rear)

[trooper]

jhorsf - 2010-02-07 11:09 PM

 

Brambles give up, if knowing that every tyre manufacturer in the world has said the rear. (this is after years of testing by different people who work for different companies and have every test facility at there disposal , spend billions of pounds a year on testing) does not make you realise that saying put new tyres on the front is talking complete crap then let them go on thinking they know better your not going to get through (the lights may be on but no one is home)

If you watched the prog on tele where they tested a high performance car in , I believe Norway,

In snow with safety aids off it slid every where ,almost impossible to drive, with aids on it was almost impossible to make it slide.

The systems are so effective that insurance companies say it saves more injuries than seat belts

and it is being made compulsory to be fitted to cars in the next year or so

Lights are still on o/k

Thought!!If your facts are so accurate , why is it not compulsory to fit tyres as claimed.?

[trooper]

jhorsf - 2010-02-07 11:09 PM

 

Brambles give up, if knowing that every tyre manufacturer in the world has said the rear. (this is after years of testing by different people who work for different companies and have every test facility at there disposal , spend billions of pounds a year on testing) does not make you realise that saying put new tyres on the front is talking complete crap then let them go on thinking they know better your not going to get through (the lights may be on but no one is home)

If you watched the prog on tele where they tested a high performance car in , I believe Norway,

In snow with safety aids off it slid every where ,almost impossible to drive, with aids on it was almost impossible to make it slide.

The systems are so effective that insurance companies say it saves more injuries than seat belts

and it is being made compulsory to be fitted to cars in the next year or so

Lights are still on o/k

Thought!!If your facts are so accurate , why is it not compulsory to fit tyres as claimed.?

[Clive]

The video,s look convincing for wet of ice. The scenario I was thinking of was hard braking where knackered tyres on the front won,t stop so well as good ones. Or fast cornering.

Norway. Went there once on business and had a hire car.Studded tyres all round and hard packed snow. 70 MPH on the open road was commonplace. Amazing

 

How about 4X4,s then. I used to enjoy getting ours in a 4 wheel drift on a long sweeping bend near town. Bit of a bugger to get it going when the tyres were new, it just went round on rails.

But had it had the 4 litre V8 petrol lump and not the 2.5 litre diesel I had it would have slid easier!

 

Am I still a kid George?

 

C.