Leisure Batteries - again

[Corky 8]

Tracker - 2010-02-13 6:16 PM

 

Thanks indeed Dennis - wow, this looks like it is too good to be true - and you know what cynical old me thinks about that don't you!

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PAIR-OF-PLATINUM-110AMP-LEISURE-12v-LEISURE-BATTERIES_W0QQitemZ280425582773QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories?hash=item414aaad0b5

 

Your Most welcome Rich, :-D

[Guest Tracker]

You're looking very handsome today Den!

[Guest Tracker]

My thanks indeed to Jon (Brambles) for drawing my attention to the issue of battery height. I naively thought that all batteries of the same power were more or less the same height as they are all - well mostly - more or less the same length and width.

 

In this case following a measure up it will not matter if they are higher up to about 240mm as there is room in the Autocruise underfloor battery box for this height - but not all vans may be so well endowed in the height department!

 

Jon also suggested two different Varta batteries and whilst I believe him when he says the 95752 E33 90ah one should be better in real life than the 81310 110ah one I would like to be able to understand why and in spite of several Googles I can't find out why!

 

Similarly Numax seem to do the CXV27 105ah at about £79, the L110 110ah at £75, the CXV31MF 113ah at about £90 and the CXV30MCA 113ah at about £89 and I can't for the life of me find out what differs in construction or potential durability between them.

 

I'm turning into a right anorak on this!

[Corky 8]

Tracker - 2010-02-13 6:37 PM

 

You're looking very handsome today Den!

 

:-D its a face lift Rich, didnt cost much either , and they said the drooling will stop, but glasses could be a problem, keep safe.

[spospe]

Rich, a few further points .......

 

I really think that unless you are going to Mars or some such place and absolutely must have total peace of mind, then I would go for the cheaper batteries.

 

Maintenance is vital. With properly charged batteries whose state of charge is constantly monitored and maintained by your solar panel and in addition the cells are kept topped-up (make sure that your new batteries have removable plugs), they should last you long enough. Batteries mostly die of neglect, look after them and they will last longer.

 

I would think that most motorvans have some static discharge of the batteries when they are stood idle. My Duetto leisure battery supplies 75 m/a when the doors are first opened and then this drops to around 20 m/a after 10 minutes. When the doors have been closed for over 10 minutes there is a further drop to around 15 m/a, unless the radio is on, when the consumption is up to around 1 amp (depends on volume). By comparison, the vehicle battery has a quite low figure of around 20 m/a more or less all the time the vehicle is stopped.

 

Battery dimensions vary enormously, often manufacturers use the same size case with different plates in order to give different capacities. Plates can vary in thickness and composition so as to vary capacity. What all this means is that the physical size of a case is only a rough guide to storage capacity.

 

Please let us all know what you decide to do and also it would be nice if you could give some feedback as time rolls on.

 

[Brambles]

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/index.html

 

The above links should give you lots of bedtime reading.

 

The 110Ah Varta is hybrid type which uses Antinony in the positive plate to harden it. This prevents it eroding away.

The negaive plate is alloyed with Calcium which has the effect of reducing gassing where the water is broken down into Hydogen and Oygen by acting a a catalyst for the Oxygen and hydrogen to recombine as water.

batteries using Antimony and Calcium are referred to as Low maintenance batteries.

 

Calcium Technology Batteries use calcium in both plates, and this has the effect of reducing the water comsumption even further. Water is still broken down into Hydrogen and Oxygen but there is enough acid/water reserve in the battery to last the 'life' of the battery.

These batteries are referred to as Maintenance Free batteries.

 

It does not mean they are maintenance free , it just means for the normal expected life of the battery under ideal or specified charging conditions and use.

 

Standard Lead Acid batteries use Antimony in the positive plate and just lead for the negative. These gas and consume more water than the others and need maintaining by topping up periodically.

 

The end point charge voltages are also different for each type.

Antimony/lead is 14.4 volts, Antimony Calcium is about 14.6, and Calcium Calcium is 14.8.

 

There are lots of variations to the above my manufactres adding other exotic elements like tin and silver in eiither very small amounts or larger amounts. Also the raw materials used and the impurities they contain can have an effect.

The seperators or envelopes between the plates is also very significant and can have a large effect on battery performance as it heps retain the soft spongy lead in place on the plates. There is also the migration of antimony from the positve plate to the negative plate which will have the effect of increasing the hydrogen release from the negative plate. Some separators are better than others to prevent this migration. Rubber separators blocking it almost completely for example by trapping it.

You should begin to see now there is an awful lot which affects the performance of a battery and I could write pages and pages on this.

 

The Varta 110Ah is hybrid, it is Antimony calcium, but uses glass fiber mats in the separators to hold the lead in place and prevent particles of lead falling to the bottom of battery and aid recombination of lead sulphate back into lead on the plate. The construction of these mats and density is very important and they also make the battery more resistant to vibration.

 

The Varta 90Ah is Calcium Calcium, so has much lower water consumption. It also aids the recharge rate and faster recharging occurs although the end point voltage is higher.

There are many other factors such as the design of the plates, separators etc.

 

Now to answer the question.

The 110 Ah, cannot be discharged as far as the 90Ah for a give number of cycles. In other words for extending the life of the battery the max depth of discharge should be limited to around 50% so useable power is 55 Ah. The 90 Ah is 60% which is 54 Ah. Not a lot in it. However in some applications the 110 Ah battery would be better as you do have more available and you could take 60% out of it. This will reduce the life of the battery a lot more than it will the Calcium Calcium 110Ah as Atnimony Calcium cannot cope with deep discharging so well.

 

There is also the Peuket effect. This is where the higher the current drawn from the battery the lower its available capacity - in other words less efficient. The peukert effect is lower for the 90Ah battery than the 110. So for high discharge currents the 90Ah performs better.

 

Where the 90Ah might give you 300 cylces at dod 60%, the 110 would give 300 cycles at 50%.. If you cycled to 60% you would reduce dramatically and might only be 150 cycles.

 

The Vartas will out perform any of the cheap batteries you are looking at, mainly because of the condstruction tecniques used, but also the purity of raw materials especially the lead. Most batteries are made now using some recycled lead from old batteries and the purity of the lead can vary enormously affecting the quality and performance.

 

So having decided you think a certian tye of battery v cost is the one you want, meeting all your requirements for power, havng solar panels etc you also need to check dimensions, how it is held down (strap over top or hold down brackets). Then some twerp mentions why do you not get a gel battery and you say far too epensive so then some nerd says how about AGM they are coming down in price and they are excellent for deep discharging, have extemely low sulphation when discharged and ideal with solar panels charging at a low rate over a long time. These will giveyou even better value for money. You start the cyle of picking a battery all over again for the 300th time. Any wonder people just go out and pick the 1st battery they are offered at a reasonable price and just enjoy using it until it does die and replace.

So my real pitch is you can pay £70 for a cheapy, or £180 for a AGM or be indecisve and go middle of the road and just pick a £120 battery.

Just like wine - 3.99 bottle might be awful, 9.99 bottle might be good but I might no like so is extravagent, or 5.99 bottle palatable and will probably go with most meals?

Alternatvely get a £40 bottle of wine (thats the true deep dicharge traction battery) and while you store the wine in your cellar for 18 years your traction batteries are still working away fine.

 

Go and see your local guy, ask him for batteries which fit in and get out and enjoy the van.

[Guest Tracker]

Wow - my thanks to Jon and Michael for such in depth replies.

 

If the differing types of batteries need 14.4, 14.6 or 14.8 volts to fully charge I know that the alternator and solar panels can deliver up to 14.8V because I have seen it - but will using the van's mains charger at 13.6 to 13.8 do any damage apart from failing to charge properly?

 

Maybe I should consider fitting in situ a decent mains charger such as one of the CTek intelligent automatic chargers in place of the Sargent inbuilt inadequate one so graciously supplied by Autocruise?

 

I intend to be Motorhoming for many years with no intention of changing vans so expensive batteries are less of a cost issue and more of a convenience issue.

 

I am thoroughly brassed off with the many inadequate batteries that have plagued my enjoyment of several vans over recent years and as we are unlikely ever to use sites with EHU, good batteries are vital to us for stays of more than two nights elsewhere.

 

Having had a quick read of the info contained in Jon's two links I can recommend the reading to anyone interested in what makes their batteries tick - and stop ticking - fascinating!

 

I am tempted to go for AGM but am concerned that, being realistic, the occasional over discharge to less than 60% of their capacity is inevitable the way we use our van off site so I guess we are back to where we started with a good quality wet cell battery which seem to have a better ability to recover from deep discharge?

[Guest Tracker]

For those of you following this tortuous saga I am getting closer to a decision at last!

 

I favour the Varta 81381 A28 110 ah battery at a delivered cost of about £245 for two.

 

The Varta 957052 E33 90 ah calcium battery is also tempting at £269 for two.

 

The Varta blurb says that they are safe to discharge by up to 80% and recharge and this may well be the deciding factor in the end.

 

Also to consider are the Numax L110 110 ah at £170 for two.

 

Also worthy of thought are the Lucas Platinum 110 ah at the low cost - but is it a bargain or just representative of the lower quality - of £146.

 

I must consider the charging regime that they will be subjected to and this is a 60W solar panel to keep them topped up and the vehicle alternator which both appear to shove out about 14.5 volts and up to 3 amps and 10 amps respectively.

 

On balance I - rightly or wrongly - consider that this charging regime better suits the conventional lead acid than the more sophisticate calcium or AGM designs.

 

But I would welcome anyone putting incorrect thoughts right for me - again!

[Brambles]

Hi Rich

I favour the Calcium/Calcium batteries because of your Solar charging.

Jon.

 

Lucas platimum!!, two seperate brands, probably owned by same company - will need to check.

 

You can source the Varta Cheaper, Tayna do a price promise. Get in touch with Bristol batteries and ask how much for two . Or just plain old ask Tayna for a discount for buying two. With you living somewhere between Nordkapp and The Sahara I do not know how close you are to Bristol but they also have a depot in Swindon. These batteries are also branded under the Bosch name and many tyre centres can supply and might give a good price.

[Guest Tracker]

Fair enough Jon! At the moment I am undecided but as leisure batteries have been a real pain in the bum in recent years for us I am very wary of getting it wrong again!

 

Looking at the Varta blurb again although it does say that their batteries, which they claim are better than 'normal' batteries, are better able to withstand deep discharge it does not mean that none of the others will not withstand it - but they might not last as long if they do?

 

On that basis the calcium E33 looks favourite again and sod the cost!

[Brambles]

I have added a bit to last post.

[spospe]

Rich

 

Last year my original equipment 90 a/h Varta battery failed after less than 1 year's use. It was replaced under guarantee by Ford (after a lot of attempted buck-passing).

 

This is not proof, it is just my own experience :-S

[Brambles]

Presumably you are looking at this page

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/fileadmin/templates/downloads/en/Folder/Folder_hobby.pdf

 

The garph for cycles is for the A24 calcium technology not the hybrid - They do not show the graph for Hybrid. It;s actually a pretty impressive graph.400 cycles at 50%. And 350ish at 80%.

 

The second graph might comfuse. It is showing I believe the fall off in capacity for each cycle to 60% dod. Now what happens is each time you cycle the AH capaciy falls off. The depth of discharge for each cycle is of the reducung capacity as you cycle. All manufactures do this, and this is why you have to work out capacity required and then look ahead to what the capacity will be near the end of life. Complicated indeed but is why you need to more or less double what you calculate you need in Ah. So if just now you get 4 days use with new batteries, after 400 or so cycles say, you will have only 2 days. Now if you are not taking down to 50% each time but a fixed amount lets say 60% then the fall off in capacity is more rapid and eponential. So where the battery spec say 200(cheap battery) v 400 (expensive battery) your 60% soon becomes 70% then 80% them 90% and so on. This accelerates the batteries loss of capacity each cycle and you now the cheap one gives a life of say 50 cycles but the better one gives you 150 cycles. Thats 3 times the life. So double the price is much better value and your cheapies are 200 cylcle at 50% not 400 @ 50% (300 at 80%) fr the Varta calcium.

 

Sorry the above is not clear at all but is very hard to explain. What you should be beginning to realise is why some peope have to replace their batteries every year to 2 years - because they discharge far too deep and as battery gets older they still try and get the same original capacity out of them.

 

Am going to eat my dinner.

[Guest Tracker]

Thanks Jon - Michaels experience with a dodgy Varta has not put me off as I have had more than my share of so many dodgy other makes that it would be unfair to list them all - except to say that Elecsol and Numax feature well over the years with two each. However that may be as much to do with power drain keeping them low and pre solar panel inadequate charging causing sulphation as it was with poor batteries!

 

I think I have the gist of what you are explaining and I thank you for taking the time.

 

So it's starting to look like the Calcium 90ah Varta is looking favourite and two of them at 180ah should give us 3 cold winters nights at an estimated 30ah usage per night. That would be OK and probably twice as long in Spring and Autumn when less - if any - heating is needed. The 15amp surge for firing up the Eberspacher is the killer when the battery is not well charged I assume because the voltage drop that it causes makes the Eberspacher recognise low voltage and cut out.

 

By cycles I take it to mean that everytime the engine fires up or a mains charger is used to top it up after a night or two of use then that would count as one cycle?

 

In that case I would estimate that as we enjoy about 90 nights use a year in total including weekend trips with about two thirds one night stops making about 75 cycles a year of which many should not discharge more than say 15ah - or 10% - which if I understand it should see them last at least 4 years with luck?

 

That would make me one very happy little bunny!

 

I have used Halfords leisure batteries in the past with some success and their guarantee was such that in the last month of a three year warranty (now only two year) they swapped a failing 85ah for a brand new one no quibble - I only got a month's warranty with it but I didn't grumble as we were on Holiday and in Dumfries! But that was pre diesel heating days when we only summer camped! Now, however, at £140 they are priced out of the market, which is a shame because Halfords are everywhere in the UK if you need them and their warranties are rock solid. C'est la vie!

[Brambles]

Oh gosh,

If this all goes wrong and they fail prematurely you will be blaming me.

Where can I hide....? However you do seem to have made your own mind up. I am just a bit concerned about how much you consume batteries. However the number of nights you have away a year is a lot for any battery so maybe you are not doing so bad.

However, I am a bit concerned about your charging system on board.

You need to make sure you get the batteries back up to a good charge and your charger if only giving 13.8 volts is fine for bulk charging but you need to get the batteries up higher. Also look at the spec for your charger for max current it can deliver. It may be customised for gel battery charging so will be limitng the charge rate to a safe level for gel.

 

If you post the model number and also what your solar panel contoller is ( or is the part of the Sargent system.) I can take a look?

[Guest Tracker]

There is no way I will blame you or anyone else if new batteries fail prematurely Jon!

 

The charging regime of the Sargent unit is not really important as we never use hook up so it does not get used and it does not have dual cahrging facility for gel batteries.

 

The principle charging is by vehicle alternator when on the road and this is capable of charging the battery albeit at no more than 10 amps due to restrictive cable size. So if I use 30 ah overnight in theory a 3 to 4 hour drive at 10 ah should put it most of it back although I understand that charge rate tails off as battery charge voltage increases.

 

The 60w Kyocera solar panel and regulator (I'll get the name tomorrow) is not connected with the Sargent system and was only ever intended to keep the batteries in good order when not in use and the regulated output this morning was around 14.4 volts. I will check it again next sunny day we get!

 

This van has only 'consumed' these two batteries in the 15 months and 14000 miles that we have had it but having had battery issues on all three of my previous vans I am getting more than a bit miffed! I don't think there is any connection between vans other than it's me that uses them although it starts to make you doubt your own sanity - or insanity - after a while

[Mel B]

... you know how you always say you buy second hand vans so that other people have the hassle of sorting out the 'issues' with them, well I think it's coming back to haunt you!!! :D

 

You're not by any chance still trying to use a sun bed to keep your tan topped up whilst in the van are you??? B-)

 

Seriously though, it sounds funny that you're having so much of a problem but then again you do use your van a fair bit. When we had our Rapido, for nearly 4 years from new, it was still on the original single leisure battery. Although we don't use our van as much as you, we still wild camp and use aires so rely on our leisure battery power extensively. Our current Rimor still has it's original battery (now 3 years old) and we've twinned it with another (last year) to extend our range but it's still working well.

 

Rather than buy 2 new batteries, would it make more sense to have a larger single leisure battery instead, assuming you have some where to put it of course?

[Guest Tracker]

Thanks Mel. Unfortunately fitting a larger single battery would mean creating a new single much larger battery location as neither space that I have for each of the two would work and we are already not overly endowed with internal storage due to the loss of decent overcab storage in a low profile.

 

I hear what you say about used vans but I can buy dozens of batteries with the thousands saved and I don't have to traipse back to the dealer if anything goes wrong with the cost of fuel often being more than the cost of putting it right yourself!

 

Fortunately all the issues had been under warranty until now and I have not had to actually fork out for a battery for many years and now that I am paying I wnt to get it right for a change!

 

I too am bemused with the run off battery problems in recent years but as they relate to different vans the only common denominator is - well - err - ME!

 

One of the biggest problems with batteries is a lack on consitency and the differences in longevity and performance can vary as much between batteries from the same maker and production line as they can between batteries from different manufacturers!

[Brambles]

Tracker, the thing is you have a large number of nights away a year using the batteries. OK a lot of those nights you are not using much power but in cold weather your heater fan/ignition is.

It could have been something really simple like although only taking out 10% of the capacacty they are not getting fully charged again before the next cycle and on returning home still not getting fully charged. It is important to do as any lead sulphate left after the charging when not fully charged converts to hard lead sulphate and will not convert back.

 

So many people use and have good 3 stage chargers, like the Ctek and when they switch back to maintentance charge they switch it off and say job done and are happy. It is a maintemance charge and is there for a reason and is needed. So important to leave on maintenance for a few days to help convert those lead sulphate crystals before they harden when you get back from a trip. Your solar panel should help here.

Maybe this has been your problem and also the larger your Ah the larger the risk of battery failure anyway and reduced reliability.

You also have to be careful with Solar panels as well, because if you have a high standby current draining the batteries, although your 18 mA is low, the charger re-enters a complete charge cycle and every day cycles up to 14.4 (or 14.8..whatever it is set to) and gassing occurs before falling back to a maintenance charge. (not all do this, some wait until the batt voltage is below 12.6v or some other set voltage) So the battery is constamtly working. Far better just to charge the battery fully and disconnect and a good battery (such as the varta with low self discharge) will be fine for a month or two. Varta say 6 to 9 months I think, before checking. I woud not leave this long, but certainly should be fine after 3 months.

The engine battery is going to need topping up long before this as standby currents for alarms etc wil be a lot higher. Here lies the problem, most need the solar panel connected to keep the engine batery topped up as well and will use something like a battery master to do so or just add a link.

Often asked myself, why not just disconnect the leisure and plug the solar panel sytsem into the engine battery as this is the one with the problem when laid up and being dragged down by alarms etc.

 

[Lord Raindrop]

And I guess that's the sum total of your battery quest Rich, in that like everything else in life they don't last for ever, interesting reading but are you any wiser?

 

With a lot of off mains use I would assume your battery deterioration can be monitored quite easily.

 

Mike

[Guest Tracker]

Thanks Jon and yes I too am begining to think that it is the charging regime that is wrong. I am only just realising that modern batteries are not like the old days where they would take any ammount of abuse and still bounce back.

 

I had not realised that even a small loss of charge would kick start a new charging cycle in which case it must be a new cycle every day - 365 a year - no wonder they dont last!

 

The engine battery too does drain over time so maybe your theory of switching the solar panel between engine battery when not in use and leisure battery when away makes sense.

 

But then again if a solar panel regulator initiates a new cycle every day it strikes me that I would be better off without the darned thing as the power gained is a poor trade off for shortened battery life?

 

I can see the sense of getting a 3 stage Ctek charger built in close to the battery box and putting the van on mains for a week or so when we get home to rehabilitate the batteries.

 

But then again if the Ctek switches between maintenance charge and no charge several times a day does that also constitute a cycle?

 

But maybe if I maintain the batteries properly I will not need to spend the extra hundred quid on Varta?

 

Interesting - if a little complex!

 

[Guest Tracker]

The solar regulator is a Sunsaver SS6-12v and does not appear to feature any kind of switching facility on the charging side, which, I think, means that it comes on when daylight dawns and goes off when daylight fades and charges continuously in between at a rate according to the light and sunshine available.

 

Could this daily cycling be doing the batteries more harm than good I wonder?

 

I am becoming a lot wiser thanks to all the input on this thread and I am very grateful for all the help imparted and I hope that others will benefit too.

 

Much of this info does explain why those who always use a site EHU rarely have a 12V battery problem because even though their batteries never get fully charged and may even be not very good the mains charger input keeps enough power in them so as not to notice - maybe?

[Brambles]

Arrrrrgh!!!!! I think I have confused you. My last post is badly written.

 

I shall try and explain later.

[Brambles]

If it sits at 14.4 volts then yes, as will cause batteries to gas every day. You need one which switches back to maintenance charge levels or 13.8 volts.

[Guest Tracker]

Brambles - 2010-02-15 1:40 PM

If it sits at 14.4 volts then yes, as will cause batteries to gas every day. You need one which switches back to maintenance charge levels or 13.8 volts.

 

Thanks Jon - I was struggling a bit - but don't worry as all info is good!

 

So the van's inbuilt Sargent unit will give a maintenance charge of 13.8v but is no good for recharging fully after use if driving home has not brought the batteries up to at least 12.7v?

 

Whereas something like the Ctek will do both when left on for a week?

 

Does this explain why the solar panel might be causing it to cycle and lose longevity?

 

I'm gonna get to the bottom of this if it kills me!

 

There is so much good info coming to light that I wonder whether the Moderators might consider it worth putting a sticky on it to help others with this often and much discussed topic of conversation?