Brambles Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Ok, have had a look at what I can find on the solar regulator. A question, where is the regulator sited compared to the batteries before I answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 The regulator is sited on a bulkhead inside the seat locker about 12" from the first battery with about 3" of space below it and to each side and 9" above for air circulation as per instructions. The Sargent EC200 PSU 2007 charger charges at 13.5 V which is about what it usually shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Thats fine, just wanted to make sure so eh temperature compensation for the unit is correct. Solar regulator - It uses Pulse Width Modulation for regulation at the set votage selected. 14.1 for gel and 14.4 for flooded. I am trying to find more info on this as it is possible this is not ideal. My initial thoughts are it is going to cause excessive gassing. You may be Ok with the calcium technology batteries or at least a heck of a lot better than hybrid batteries. The solar regulator also disconnects when battery voltage is below 10.5 volts, so is possible in past you have over discharged the batteries and the solar panel will not have recharged until you started the engine and put some charge back in from alternator...kind of feel this is unlikely as you would have known as heater would have stopped working. But back to the PWM, if it does keep the battery up at 14.4 volts then this is great for when battery is in use every day, but not good for long term storage. So this needs investigating as to what it really does. It also means every night the battery will settle back to below 13 volts (12.8/9 ish) and then next day when sun comes up will charge back up to 14.4 volts...not needed and not desireable when laid up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 The no load voltage on the battery side of the solar regulator is 14.9v, regulated down from solar panel input of 20.2v and the current going into the booster pack is .45A. This may be misleading as the booster pack is not the same as the leisure batteries in type, size or condition but I don't feel like lugging those two heavy brutes out and back again if I don't need to - but I will if you need to know! I don't think the batteries ever got as low as 10.5v - about 11.5v is the worst after a night in which the heating failed to ignite but the fan ran for an unknown while until I woke up and switched it off. I presume no harm will come to the solar panel if I switch it off from the leisure batteries with a simple on/off switch when not needed? Charger? Which one? http://www.ctek.com/EN-GB/Buy-Charger.aspx http://www.tayna.co.uk/Numax-Leisure-Battery-Charger-10A-P6127.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Tracker -- have found more info om the Regulator -- Its a good product - wrong application and no use for being laid up. Its applocation is more suited to battery operation and charging where power is being used , say, every night or on a regular basis. Yes a switch would be fine and you could isolate the panel from charging once it has done its job. I looked at the pro-star v Morning Star, the pro star has a timer so after batery is charged I thinkit is an hour later it cuts back to a aintetabce charge, Now thats much better, Stil no ideal tough as every day the cycle repeats and also does and equalisation charge every day. These are industial application regulators not suited to Motorhome use or applications where power is not eing comsumed for weeks on end. It could well be this that has killed your batteries in past. What was the acid level in your Elecsol like - save me reading back over the posts - and, go on, force the Moura cover off and have a look as well. I bet it is very low. How many people I wonder are using this morning star to maintain batteries when laid up - to me it is just not suitable. As I say - Right product, wrong application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 That's interesting Jon as the firm who sold me the panel suggested that regulator and I took their advice thinking they knew best. Is there perhaps some definitive information that I could send a link to them and seek their opinion whether I was badly advised or not/ Meanwhile I will send them an email and ask their views! The elecsol is full to about the right level and I really don't want to destroy the Moura or risk an acid splash unless there is a very good reason - but I will if you really need to know!. The charge state of both and their charecteristics on charge and discharge are remarkably similar considering their differing makes, types and ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Unsurprisingly the suppliers of the regulator and panel are adamant that the regulator is perfect for the job and not in anyway responsible for damaging the batteries by over charging. They say it is not over cycling because the voltage is not dropping enough overnight to be an issue? Would anyone else who has the Sunsaver SS6 regulator care to add their own experiences - good as well as bad or unknown as yet - please? Tayna batteries will offer an as yet unspecified discount if I order two batteries but they are heavily pushing the Numax CXV27 or CXV31 in favour of Varta or anything else when I asked for their opinion on the best battery for the job, telling me that Numax are the most popular by a long way with no reliability issues. Confused - you betcha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Rich A further couple of points regarding regulators for solar panels ... a) All the regulators that I have looked at have been designed for 'domestic' applications, where the solar panel is the sole source of power for the battery. When used in a motorvan application they can be less than optimal for charging the leisure battery, because of the additional intermittent charging by the engine and electric hook-up. Also as Brambles says they are designed to work in an environment where the system in daily use. My Steca regulator has a 30 day charging cycle for doing such things as equalisation charges etc, however this algorithm is based on a static installation and driving through tunnels, ‘kids’ the regulator into thinking that a short day has passed. b) My Steca regulator, can work with both 12 and 24-volt batteries and automatically switches to the correct voltage provided that it is connected to the battery BEFORE the solar panel is connected. A solar panel intended for 12-volt battery working will normally produce 20+ volts off-load. If the panel were to be connected to the regulator before the battery, then the regulator would switch to 24-volt working and as a result, cook the battery. This is true of the Steca, I do not know about your regulator, but it is something that you could check up on. I have seen a system incorrectly wired, so that the output of the regulator went to a switched battery connection. Every time the vehicle engine started, the battery was disconnected and thus the regulator switched to 24-volt working (the solar panel was still connected to the regulator under these conditions). The effect was that the leisure battery failed in just over a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Maybe I am missing somethiong with the Sunseeker, I shall take another look. If the acid levels where fine it does point to it not necessarily being the cause of failure. So I must be missing something or they are not listing all its afunctions in the details and spec. Of course they would say its not killing the batteries! But I am not so certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Thanks Michael. I am happy that I connected the system according to the instructions - ie battery first - and as the regulator is a 12v only item incorrect voltage is not an issue. There is no switched connection that I am aware of and when the engine is running around 14.4v is present across the battery terminals. The solar panel unregulated output is around 20V today and the regulated flow to the battery is 14.9V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 For those interested in understanding their battery more there is some useful info on here. http://www.manbat.co.uk/cm/files/brochures/battery_specification.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Hi I don't know if there is a difference but 4years ago at the Peterborough show I bought a marine leisure battery it was more expensive than the normal one but it is still going strong. I'm going to regret saying that it,ll fail now. John. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Tracker - what colour are the deposits on the inside of the caps on the Elecsol, and is there any light scum floating on top of the acid. Does the acid look clear an bright or is it brownish at all? Still not sure about this PWM charger, PWM ccharging is ver good and with the right algorithim does the job well and have to assume it s fine, but...... I just do not like thinking it holds the voltage up so high without folding back. It does it by very narrow pulses but all the same it just seems wrong and yet as long as battery is ot gassing should not be a problem...and you have said acid level was fine so excessive gassing has not been taking place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 For those who wish to know about PWM see link http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/support/library/8.%20Why%20PWM1.pdf On wiping the underside of a couple of cell caps there is a very light spattering of what can best be described as dark grey deposit and the acid is clear with no discernable film on the surface, however from what I could see of the plates there does seem to be some minor buckling. The solar panel suppliers are adamant that the regulator would not damage batteries in normal use and the voltages that I reported to them would seem to support that in their view. They reckon that probably the batteries were already dying due to sulphation before I fitted the solar panel and being honest they have a point! I can't prove or disprove that theory but it is certainly feasible as the main reason for getting the solar panel was because the batteries were not holding up well in between trips. I thought this was because of self discharge and system loss at the time but now I am not so sure that it isn't all simply a matter of yet two more poor quality batteries after all? It may still be good practise to fit a Ctek type charger as the cost will be well saved by the savings brought about by extended battery life - however this is what the solar panel was supposed to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 For those who are interested and have a hydrometer and a digital multimeter - and neither are expensive compared to buying batteries - the following are what you are looking for when you test the electrolyte (acid) and off load voltage. Charge Specific Gravity Approx Volts 100% 1.265 + 12.7 + 75% 1.225 12.4 - 12.5 50% 1.190 12.1 - 12.2 25% 1.155 12.0 FLAT under 1.120 11.9 Different websites quote slightly different figures but the above will give you a good guide and bear in mind that sulphation of the plates which prevents the battery working efficiently starts at around 12.4V. Hope this helps someone avoid problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Certainly sound now like your batteries have just died from use, aging and probably being left not fully charged. I did not realise you fitted the solar panel after probem with bateries, I assumed it was alreaday fitted. With out the panel the batteries would not have been getting charged properly if the previous owner had just been using the on board 13.8 volt supply. Agree, get two new batteries, then you have known good batteries to do some tests on. I think the Ctek or similar , is a good idea. Make sure it is Ok for 200 AH or whatever your capacity wil be. ..180Ah. I see the options as. 1. replace the on board charger for a 3 stage. 2. replace the solar conroller for a 3 stage type 3. Get a Ctec type 3 stage and use occassionally or as you sugested fit in van. 4. Do nothing yet except replace batteries and see how the Solar charger performs. Can I also just add if not aready mentioned, there is no point in getting your batteries up to 100% full charge if you are about to drive the vehicle, the engine battery and vehicle electrics will just suck the additional charge back out out. Its about 80 to 90% I think a battery gets to on a vehicle being driven..never ever reaches 100% of possible charge. Also fit a switch on Solar panel so it can be isolated or at least give you the option and also an isolation switch on the batteries....also makes no load testing of voltages much easier. The SS6 type controller you have does not have this probem of auto switching to 24 volts. So up to you most convenient and economic route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Fair comment Jon. I am inclined to agree that two new batteries are the first order of the day but I just wanted to explore other possible before just bunging on two new batteries and then finding in a year's time the same issues all over agin. I will also fit a solar panel disconnect switch and a battery isolator switch. If then I find that the miles driven don't charge the batteries fully I will either use my existing rather large intelligent charger or get a suitable Ctek or similar. I am veering toward ruling out El Cheapo batteries and going for allegedly better quality branded ones and just got to decide whether to take a chance on Lucas Platinum 110 at £146. or go for the allegedly better Numax CXV31 MF at £190. or the top spec Varta E33 calcium at £270. The price of the Lucas is attractive but the potential for holding their cahrge for longer of the Varta is equally attractive! Unlike with Halfords or maybe a local factor you seem to have to jump through hoops to get any of the above to accept that a battery is faulty if there are problems and that includes sending it back for testing in some cases - expensive and inconvenient - so effectively unless I buy from a local source the guarantee ain't much cop? One thing for sure is that I have learnt a lot from Jon and Michael and I am indeed indebted to them for their invaluable research and time, as well as to everyone else who has already or now would like to contribute. Decisions decisions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Right - the local motor factor has quoted me £214 for two Varta E33s and they have been ordered, so whilst there I bought a high amperage battery isolating switch and another with enough amperage isolate the solar panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Bear in mind the battery switch only needs to be 40 amps max or same size as fuse, so hope you have not gone overboard with the physical size of the switch. Mind you there is something nice about turning a large red handle and feel like you are isolating the world's electric supply compared to flicking a 40 Amp domestic wiring wall switch! p.s seems a reasonable price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 So now may I please ask a question, before you all go for a deserved lie down? I have followed this with fascination, and not a little awe! If I have understood, neither on-board chargers, nor engine driven alternators, fully charge batteries of whatever type. I think I have understood the reason for this in the case of the on-board chargers, as being that these are really 12V power packs, mainly intended to supply on board 12V equipment when on hook-up so, if they supplied the voltage required to fully charge the battery, they would then overload the on-board 12V equipment, so shortening its life. I assume similar logic also applies to the alternator controller?However, if that is so, is there any equipment that can be connected between either charging source and battery, that would raise the charging voltage to give a full charge to the battery, while limiting the 12V circuits to "safe" voltages? It just seems so obvious to do this, but it seems no-one does, so is it technically impossible, too expensive, or readily enough available - if only one knew what to ask for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Brian, Maybe I am not the best to reply but I'll have ago and Jon will put me right - it's all part of the learning curve! The engine driven alternator will fully charge the leisure batteries if you do enough miles depending on the state of charge when you start. However as the engine battery rightfully takes priority it is only when it is getting towards fully charged that the full 10 amps will be pushed into the leisure batteries. It would be more going in if the cabling were heavier but those awfully helpful people at the factory are petrified that it might charge fully too quickly and emit explosive hydrogen into the van interior so they limit it to 10 amps which to be fair is generally adequate if not ideal. The built in charger is as you suggest limited to 13.5 to 13.8 volts to prevent too many volts going into potentially delicate electronics and also for the same hydrogen gassing reasons above. As for inserting a device to boost voltage I doubt it is practical to use an inverter - even if one were available - to boost voltage from 13.5 to 14.4 or so although you could run heavier cable from the alternator split charging relay to the leisure battery and that in theory should allow more amps to flow into the leisure battery. Then again there is always the Stirling battery to battery charger to do this for us but it is not cheap. For those who use sites with EHU there generally is no problem it's mainly us recalcitrant off siters and Aires users that suffer! If you already have decent intelligent battery charger that will both charge and then maintain a fully charged battery you could always use that to bring the leisure batteries up to full charge before a trip? I still intend to fit a master battery switch so that when it is off it is completely off. Anyway that's the way that I see it - does it help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I have learnt a lot by reading this thread(was beginning to think we were going to have a whip round for Rich) before he would part with any money for new batteries :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Thanks jhorsf all contributions gratfefully received - charity begins at home and all that - us poor old pensioners are so hard done by what with 40% income tax and council tax band H! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I shall mark up your response as if it is an exam paper!! The engine driven alternator will fully charge the leisure batteries if you do enough miles depending on the state of charge when you start. - --- It wil fully charge in the traditional sense of the normal amount of charge an automotve battery gets. Think of a bottle of chemi loo, it is full when unopened. But it is not really as there is space at the top. A battery is much the same, and we can fill that space. Also by the nature of an alternator and how it works along with vehicle power consumption ( an alternator has ripple because it is a rectified 3 phase supply it is impossible to charge literally 100% Ignore inteligent reguators on the alternator such as Sterling sell and also being fitted to some modern vehicles. (Ford now fit a lot of silver technology batteries which require over 15 volts to charge and have on board battery management sytems...all very complex and you cannot put any battery in as replacment as it will cook. However as the engine battery rightfully takes priority it is only when it is getting towards fully charged that the full 10 amps will be pushed into the leisure batteries. ------ If your batteries are low on charge then they will take 10 Amps if they want it and as this drags the alternator output down a bit the engine battery will actually see less volts and charge slower. In effect all batteries will charge so they arrive at full charge (as full as they are going to get on an altrenator) together. The small resistance in the wiring to the leisure battery unbalances it a bit in favour of the engine battery getting more of its share. I hope you follow what I am saying here. So not strictly true the engine battery takes priority. Many moons ago on days of dynamos then a charge relay would have been fitted for additional batteries which only closed when the engine battery had received a good charge and voltage was raised back up above a set level. It would be more going in if the cabling were heavier but those awfully helpful people at the factory are petrified that it might charge fully too quickly and emit explosive hydrogen into the van interior so they limit it to 10 amps which to be fair is generally adequate if not ideal. -------- top marks for effort Tracker. (Brambles stop being patronising - Editor) Something like that. Its the way an alternator works and the battery itself which limits the charge rate not so much the resistnce in wirng althiough it does help and certainly helps a lot if fittng a gel battery or AGM. The built in charger is as you suggest limited to 13.5 to 13.8 volts to prevent too many volts going into potentially delicate electronics and also for the same hydrogen gassing reasons above. ----- A lot of Motorhomes have staged chargers/powrsupplies as original equipment and wil charge to 14.4 volts or a user set voltage for Gel, AGM or flooded. So not all are a fixed 13.8 volts power supply. As for inserting a device to boost voltage I doubt it is practical to use an inverter - even if one were available - to boost voltage from 13.5 to 14.4 or so although you could run heavier cable from the alternator split charging relay to the leisure battery and that in theory should allow more amps to flow into the leisure battery. ---- don't remembe the original ssuggestion by Brian...so her goes. A battery to battery charher.invertor shoudl work. Just thinking this is actually maybe a great suggestion. Get yourdelf a 12 volt powered 3 stage battery charger...heck I bet they are expensive but maybe not. Then again there is always the Stirling battery to battery charger to do this for us but it is not cheap. ----------- Darn, should have read this bit before my response above For those who use sites with EHU there generally is no problem it's mainly us recalcitrant off siters and Aires users that suffer! -----you said it. Costs us a fortune for the privilage so don't anyone say we are skinflints not wanting to pay for a campsite or EHU. If you already have decent intelligent battery charger that will both charge and then maintain a fully charged battery you could always use that to bring the leisure batteries up to full charge before a trip. --------- top marks. I still intend to fit a master battery switch so that when it is off it is completely off. ----- I always advocate doing this. Anyway that's the way that I see it - does it help? -----most cvertainly does Tracker. Hope you do not mind my coments, and if I may again quote your signature phrase. ...... there is no right or wro.... Hope I am not outspeakingtoo much on all this battery stuff...pull holes in anything I say if you think I am wrong, then we can have a spatt and the new moderator can ban me...now who is the new moderator again who has volunteered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 jhorsf - 2010-02-16 7:33 PM I have learnt a lot by reading this thread(was beginning to think we were going to have a whip round for Rich) before he would part with any money for new batteries :D LOL. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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