Leisure Batteries - again

[Guest Tracker]

Lucas Platinum 110ah

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PAIR-OF-PLATINUM-110AMP-LEISURE-12v-LEISURE-BATTERIES_W0QQitemZ280425582773QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories?hash=item414aaad0b5%3C/div%3E

[Brambles]

Its NOT a Lucas battery! Its a UK-Batteries platinum.

 

Going back to your Numax sealed 113 Ah (or the lucas) . They are AtlasBx batteries and they are marine starter battries in reality - They are not suitable for your proposed use. Makes me angry the way the sellers market these as being deep discharge, they are not. What is needed is a AtlasBX deep discharge XDC31MF, not a DC31MF although it is suitable for light discharges - marine starting and leisure, and not a XV31MF.

The XDC31MF will be a lot more expensive.

Confusing? If it says 1000 Amps cold cranking forget it.

Take a look here and look up pdf for E-Nex.

 

 

I shall take a look at the platinum again and post back.

[lennyhb]

Brambles - 2010-02-20 10:55 PM

 

There is another factor to consider which I have not really taken into account yet or mentioned and this is charging a deeply discharged battery on the alternator. This allows it to charge at far too high a rate from being deeply discharged. This could well be a factor in your premature failure of batteries and many other people as well.

Calcium Calcium batteries can charge at a very high rate, and the damage to the battery from these high charge curremts is less than with a Calcium Atimony battery. However in the Varta 110Ah Hybrid Battery the galss mat goes some way to reduce the effects.

 

If you take any battery down to 80% Depth of discharge you are really asking for trouble as you have to recharge properly from this depth of discharge ...and an Alternator cannot do this.

 

Not an easy one to work out in which would be better, the 90 or the 110.

If you feel better with the 110Ah then go for it, The Tayna price is certainy very good for this battery, as in rest of Europe they appear to be more expensive that the 90 Ah not cheaper.

 

The alternator charging a deeply dscharged battery certainly will not do it any good and the effects on the Calcium Calcium construction compared to the Calcium Antimony with glass mat I do not know.

You woull think if you have a higher Ah to begin with and so after x nights it is discharged to a lower perentage DOD it would have to be better when chargeing on the alternator.... so would the 110 be better in this respect!!!! Swings and roundabouts considering, and I have mentioned this before, most batteries are murdered prematurely anyway and you have to weigh up the costs.

 

Talking of Alternator charging, the worst thing to do is after deep discharge is to start the engine and drive off fast down the road. Much better to keep the engine revs very low and give the battery a chance to charge slowly at 1st, also better for a cold engine anyway not to race it immediately.

I wonder if this is why your last batteries failed, because the dod was so great then when charging off the alternator they just could not cope with the high charge currents.

 

Your confused Tracker, well it is confusing. If you need 220 Ah then you need the larger capacity, but you have to ask if you really need it.

If you had 280 Ah would you just end up pushing 5 ot 6 nights in one spot instead and be back to the same issues?

 

And if you take into account when you move after 3 days you may only be travelling enough to replenish half the charge before overnighting again.....work that one out!!!!!

 

edit - some of the spelling.

 

 

hi Jon,

 

After reading the above I was wondering how my Gel batteries stand up? I have 2 x 80 A/hr Gels after 2 nights use when I start up with the engine on tick-over the control panel shows a charge rate to the leisure batteries of 44 amps.

I assume there is a decent 12v charge system build into the charger as you could not achieve that level of charge via a split charge relay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

Thanks Jon - it fooled me being in among the other Lucas batteries and having a similar name.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280435722106

 

These are termed maintenance free so does that mean that they are Calcium/Calcium batteries as I can't find the tech spec anywhere for them?

 

How does a marine battery differ from a vehicle starting battery or from Leisure battery? I would expect that being in the bilges of a boat a sealed for life non hydrogen emitting battery would be a good idea - although we never had such luxuries on the many fishing boats that I've worked on in my younger day and none of them ever exploded!

[Brambles]

lennyhb - 2010-02-21 3:41 PM

 

After reading the above I was wondering how my Gel batteries stand up? I have 2 x 80 A/hr Gels after 2 nights use when I start up with the engine on tick-over the control panel shows a charge rate to the leisure batteries of 44 amps.

I assume there is a decent 12v charge system build into the charger as you could not achieve that level of charge via a split charge relay.

 

 

Hate to say it but your charge relay is holding up if it says 44 Amps on panel. The on board mains charger will limit the current, but only thing limiting the alternator is the resistance of the cables and the alternator itself. A gel battery used as a starter battery if it gets low can cook an alternator and burn it out.

The relays will withstand quite a high current, they just will not be very good at switching it on an off.

 

 

Tracker ---

 

Not found any decent specs for the Platinum 6110L or the supplier yet.

From something I picked up I found one seller who stopped selling the Numax equivalent L110 beause of leakage in transit and changed to the Platinum (UKGiant) distributed by UKbatteries.

Maybe worth also asking the seller what the age of them is, maybe he is trying to shift old stock that has been filled with acid. No problem with old stock stored unfilled. Most of the large suppliers/distributors will store unfilled and fill when they sell.

 

[Guest Tracker]

I do think on balance that I would rather spend the extra and get good quality batteries and Varta seem as good as any and better than a lot.

 

If they don't last any better than cheapies I will know what to do next time!

 

So it comes down to a straight choice between the Hybrid A28 110ah which I can get locally for about £190 the pair or the Calcium E33 90ah for about £214 - when and if I can get them locally?

 

My biggest issue is the tremendous strain that starting and firing up the Eberspacher boiler puts on the batteries when they are partly discharged. The 15 to 18 or so amps not only creates qiute a surge but also makes the voltage drop to a point that the Eberspacher senses it is below about 12v and locks out.

 

The original order for the two E33s has been cancelled pending info from the local supplier and I just wish I could decide which ones to opt for? However, fortunately as we don't intend going away again for a while so there is no great rush.

 

The price difference is not a problem - it's all about usable capacity without over discharging and not allowing them to get too low too often plus ensuring the charge regime of solar and alternator topped uk by Ctek charger at home is right.

 

I've fitted the battery isolator and solar panel isolator switches such that either or both can be operated independently of each other - all crimped and soldered terminals - and tested the wiring for cock ups with none found!

 

Decisions, decisons, decisions - I used to be indecisve - but now - I'm not so sure!!

 

However I do now hope that I, and other readers, have learnt enough to get a longer and more dependable life from the new batteries!

 

[Brambles]

Think anyone else reading this thread will be totally confused, wonder what the heck is it all about and given up wanting to live. :-S

 

 

[spospe]

Possibly Brambles, quite possibly ;-)

 

A useful site for further, non too-technical reading is:

 

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-13.htm

[Brian Kirby]

Amateur time again!  Would it not pay Rich to separate his batteries, so that he has one designated for just the Eberspacher heater, and another, possibly of different construction and/or capacity, for the rest of his 12V installation?

I'm also intrigued that so much of this string seems really to relate to how the batteries are charged, rather than to the batteries themselves.  That is to say, how Rich uses his batteries is typical of many who don't use hook-ups, and it seems as though the batteries, of whatever type, may suffer more from the charging regime than from being excessively discharged.

It seems from all that has been said above, one can establish what, in broad terms, is the "best" type of battery to install.  Should we therefore turn to consideration of better mains chargers, and to ensuring the output from the alternator is better regulated, than the batteries.  Selecting the "ideal" battery, and then killing it with the wrong charging regime, seems to be emerging as quite a danger.  Where does the balance of economies lie?

I assume the "down to a price" installations in most vans may be the main culprits, so is there alternative equipment that could be installed, so that the expensive, and somewhat toxic, batteries are kept working usefully for longer?  Or have I misunderstood - again?  :-)

[GypsyTom]

Brambles - 2010-02-21 5:37 PMThink anyone else reading this thread will be totally confused, wonder what the heck is it all about and given up wanting to live. :-S

This is nothing! You should have seen the 'Global Warming' thread in Chatterbox. Several pages of esoteric argument but, when you analysed it, there were only about four contributors. If reading this thread makes you lose the will to live you'd have slit your wrists half-way through the Global Warming one! :-D :-D

[Guest Tracker]

It never fails to amaze me why any thread should ever raise the observation that it might bore anyone - if you get bored simply don't look it again - simples!

 

Whilst the theory may be difficult to understand completely, what really matters is what I, and Brian, among others, have been striving to discover - and that is simply the best way to control the battery's 'environment' within the limitations of it's application so that it ;-

 

A] primarily delivers the best performance possible

 

B] does not get killed prematurely either by neglect or by misguided kindness?

 

How hard can it be to find the most suitable type and capacity of battery to fulfill both criteria?

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

If anyone on the sidelines has any experiences or problems or battery related questiond now is a good time to join in - come on don't be shy!

[Brambles]

I have been waiting for someone to mention Trojan deep discharge Traction batteries as a solution along with decent mains and alternator to battery chargers. Come on, someone really throw a spanner across Trackers battery terminals and cause some global warming.

 

[Guest Tracker]

Brambles - 2010-02-21 8:19 PM

 

I have been waiting for someone to mention Trojan deep discharge Traction batteries as a solution along with decent mains and alternator to battery chargers. Come on, someone really throw a spanner across Trackers battery terminals and cause some global warming.

 

I have heard of these but as they quote cranking amperages I did not want to mention them and display my ignorance again in case you told me that they are not 'proper' leisure batteries - again!

 

What does Trojan have that others do not have then Jon?

 

Apart from being quite high both in price and size!

[Brambles]

Much better deep discharge performance and number of cycles.

Its generally accepted its the way to go if you have heavy power consumption every night and also full time. I think one of the sites I listed has a costing excercise on using traction v leisure type semi traction.

 

Brian - nice idea using two separate batteries split. Someone will need to sit down and work that one out though as to costs v life and if practicle.

[Brambles]

date. 1/7/2011. Hi Jon, we leave on holiday next week and finally worked out after 1 year what batteries I need. Do you agree the Lithium Ion batteries will not be replaced with a newer technology as soon as we return after hols. I still like the idea of the Nickle/Iron batteries, but the silicon nanowire lithium battery technology ones you sugested do seem to be the bees knees as have 10 times the powrr to weight ratio and life is phenominal. Think I will wait until we get home again and just struggle on with the ELecsol and Moura I got refurbished by that new company who can desulphate batteries. Uses lots of Duracells still to replace the two duff cells but would rather do this and wait for the best batteries before spending £2grand.

p.s. did I mention we saw a nice second hand motorhome last week and are thinking of buyng it. I shall check with the owner the batteries are ok 1st before buying and is so we will get after this hol.

P.P.S, it has a gas convector heater and not te eberwotzit so power may not be a problem anymore - l will let you know.

;-)

[Guest Tracker]

Thanks for that Jon - I don't blame you for getting mildly irritated and I'll take it in the humorous spirit that it might possibly have been intended!

 

However I can assure you that the old batteries are not going back in the van under any circumstances.

 

It is funny that you should mention Duracell as they do a good range of Nimh rechargeables now and I reckon that about 320 of them arranged in banks of 8 to give 12 volts should work really well and the beauty of it is that I can recharge them via the inverter that they power.

 

 

 

 

[Brambles]

not not at all, not really even mildly irritated. Just frustrated as I wish I could condense the information and knowledge better. There are so many options and routes to go, every Motorhome and every user has different needs and there is no simple answer. What is good for one person is not ideal for another and it is always a compromise.

 

I did read somewhere about advantages of using Nicads or NiMh rechargeable batteries in a Motorhome. Technically a good solution but expensive.

Maybe in a few years as Electric vehicles become more popular and battery prices fall we will start to see some of the newer technologies replacing lead acid.

In the meantime when looking at really expensive chargers you have to also compare with using something like an Efoy to recharge, or even a small generator. (arrrrrgh I know, I know, and I hate them as well but there are times they can be useful and not annoy others).

 

Brain mentioned something about most of the talk has been around charging and not much on power usuage. This is actually something else of importance when choosing batteries. Some will have a lower terminal voltage as they discharge and curren is drawn. (higher internal resistance in effect)

For your last or that extra night as battery is getting down in volts it is no use if the power is there and there is a volt drop because of the conversion process in battery or just the plain old plate resistance. You still need to maintain a high rate of ion exchange in the battery and the cheaper ones are not so good at this. So even though you have plenty hours left, its not usable for your heater as the voltage drops too much when you have your heater on drawing the ignition current. SO you need the lowest possible voltdrop in battery when 50% discharged and delivering power.

Do you follow this? Hope so.

I will now try and find which is better in this respect for the two vartas

 

[Brambles]

 

 

I have totally overlooked the discharge voltage curve when working out the better battery. Silly me. Using typical figures, then at 50% discharge on the 110 varta you have 12.24 volts.

With the 90 Ah at 60% ( this is the same Ahours near as damn it you have drawn out) it is 12.15 volts.

 

Its clear from this you are going to get more usable volts from the 110 Ah battery if you have a voltage cut off on the heater around the 12 volt mark. I would still like to see graphs for the volt drop v current and remaining capacity but I am not going to find them easily and it should be a relatively small difference. So your gut feeling the more reserve Ahours you have is a good one and something maybe I missed.

So is my logic right or wrong -- dunno! late at night but seems to beginning to make sense now. For long life still prefer the 90AH but f that means you fail to get that extra night as they age when you want it , its not much use is it. And they are a bit cheaper. Have I mention with European suppliers the 110Ah is actually a lot more expensive than the 90 AH. Maybe its cheaper here as a much more popular battery. Or is just plain more expensive in europe because I beleive they have a heavy recycling tax or charge on batteries related to Ah rating.

 

[Guest Tracker]

Many thanks Jon and I really appreciate your efforts.

 

My wife would agree that sometimes I can be a tad stubborn and whilst I am always open to new ideas the cynic in me takes some convincing that 'new' technology is always better than old.

 

So just when I decide again that perhaps your original idea of the 90ah calcium was better than my idea of the 110ah hybrid after all you went and gave me good reason to get the higher capacity.

 

Having discounted the cheaper makes for several various reasons the cost of the two remaining contenders is not so far apart that it matters - I just want the most suitable battery for my type of use!

[AliB]

Tracker - 2010-02-15 3:09 PM

 

 

 

I don't think the batteries ever got as low as 10.5v - about 11.5v is the worst after a night in which the heating failed to ignite but the fan ran for an unknown while until I woke up and switched it off.

 

 

Fascinated to see this thread still going after being away for 1 week holiday. Very interesting.

If the problem is to keep the heater working are you sure the voltage operating range is correct?

I don't know which heater you have but most 12 Volt Eberspacher units have an operating range of 10.5 to 16 Volts.

[Brambles]

I suspect with his duff batteries the igniter circuit pulled the voltage down below 10.5 and failed to ignite, then the fan continued to run.

What I would like to know for definite is the min voltage the heater will ignite.

I have asked Varta technical chappies for some information but I have based it on 12 volts min for heater. If the ignitor works down to 10.5 then the 90Ah might turn out to be the better after all.

I need those full specs from varta.

[Guest Tracker]

I too eamiled Varta twice and phoned once last week all to no avail.

 

There was noone available to take my call apparently and they promised to get back to me - yeah right!

 

Another wonderful example of customer care apathy that really instills confidence - I wonder what they are like if the battery fails under warranty? They are indeed fortunate to have so much business that I don't matter!

 

I've found the Eberspacher Combitronic blurb and it is a D5WSC.

 

The start up power is stated as 120w - 10 amps - but I know for a fact that it takes around 16 to 18 amps (192 to 216 amps) for the first few seconds of firing because I measured it with a multimeter in line and then it drops to between 1.8 and 4.0 amps depending on how hard it is working until it reaches the temperature on the stat which can be anything up to half an hour depending on ambient temperature and temperature selected - usually about 21 - 24 degrees! After that the fan continues to run to cool the system for ten minutes or so at about 2 amps. Then when the temperature drops a degree or two below the stat setting the whole process starts again but does not usually need to run for more than 15 minutes or so each time.

 

The operating voltages are stated as from 10.2 to 16v in theory but in practise if the voltage gets to about 12.1 on the control panel the fan will run but it won't ignite. I put this down to voltage drop under heavy load with duff batteries but I do wonder why the control panel does not show the voltage being that low - unless I missed it?

 

After three failed attempts to fire the system then locks you out and it will not fire even on a well charged battery. The only way that I have found to reset the lockout is to disconnect the plug on the back of the Eberspacher control panel, wait about five seconds and reconnect it - a bit of a pain but better than frozen tootsies! It then works - well it always has so far! There may well be a different way to reset it from the control panel but if there is I don't know it!

 

And that is why I wish we had a gas powered system!

[Brambles]

Tracker - 2010-02-22 5:26 PM

 

I too eamiled Varta twice and phoned once last week all to no avail.

 

There was noone available to take my call apparently and they promised to get back to me - yeah right!

 

Another wonderful example of customer care apathy that really instills confidence - I wonder what they are like if the battery fails under warranty? They are indeed fortunate to have so much business that I don't matter!

 

The UK office are really admin and box shifters, they deal with consumers through the distributors who most have more than enough knowledge to deal with most sales support for automobiles. Its a bit like asking Hotpint for information on the detailed design and test specs for washing machines, they just ain't going to know in the UK but wil know the basic features.

 

I've found the Eberspacher Combitronic blurb and it is a D5WSC.

 

The start up power is stated as 120w - 10 amps - but I know for a fact that it takes around 16 to 18 amps (192 to 216 amps) for the first few seconds of firing because I measured it with a multimeter in line and then it drops to between 1.8 and 4.0 amps depending on how hard it is working until it reaches the temperature on the stat which can be anything up to half an hour depending on ambient temperature and temperature selected - usually about 21 - 24 degrees!

!

Does your Multi meter measure average current, or peak? Depending on multimeter you could get a completely false reading if the current is modulated for the ignition. You need a meter which will measure Average.

Most cheap meters measure peak and if set to AC calculate the RMS value from the peak. I shall take a look and see if I can find some specs.

 

After that the fan continues to run to cool the system for ten minutes or so at about 2 amps. Then when the temperature drops a degree or two below the stat setting the whole process starts again but does not usually need to run for more than 15 minutes or so each time.

 

The operating voltages are stated as from 10.2 to 16v in theory but in practise if the voltage gets to about 12.1 on the control panel the fan will run but it won't ignite. I put this down to voltage drop under heavy load with duff batteries but I do wonder why the control panel does not show the voltage being that low - unless I missed it?

Probably because the meter on panel smoothes out the voltage it is reading with a capacitor. So any spiky dips will have a small effect. Agree with what you are saying.

 

 

After three failed attempts to fire the system then locks you out and it will not fire even on a well charged battery. The only way that I have found to reset the lockout is to disconnect the plug on the back of the Eberspacher control panel, wait about five seconds and reconnect it - a bit of a pain but better than frozen tootsies! It then works - well it always has so far! There may well be a different way to reset it from the control panel but if there is I don't know it!

I believe there is a way to reset it, when testing these years ago used the method when constantly locking out. I cannot recall it though.

 

And that is why I wish we had a gas powered system!

Gas heating goes through a lot of gas and you would just be wishng you had larger fixed tanks.

[Brambles]

"The start up power is stated as 120w - 10 amps - but I know for a fact that it takes around 16 to 18 amps (192 to 216 amps) for the first few seconds of firing because I measured it with a ..."

 

Checking the manual online it says <250 watts. .....so up to 20 Amps. Looks like your multimeter is fine.

 

16A x 12V = 192 watts not amps!!!