Mike Chapman Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 My Fiat Ducato service manual indicates that the 3 Litre 160 is a Sofim engine and has a cambelt which is included in the Service Schedule the same as the 2.3 120 and 130 engines. I was under the impression that the 3 Litre had a cam chain, as does the 2.2 Litre 100. The Fiat Sales Brochure for the Ducato quite clearly states that the 3 Litre is a cam chain. Are there two versions of this engine? The 3 Litre Cam Belt fitted in Motor Caravan Chassis versions and the Chain Cam fitted in Commercial Van and Chassis versions. I seem to remember that some time ago there was a posting about this indicating that one version had both a Chain Cam Drive and a Toothed Belt Timing Drive but have been unable to find this via Search. Any clarification of this greatfully received. Regards, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Only thing that springs to mind is a trip to Fiat and ask the parts department to flag up the engine detail via the engine or vin number ? RGds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Check this link out, it shows that the 3 litre 160 engine is chain driven. Hope this helps. Regards Stew http://www.waltonsummit.co.uk/fiat/brochures/New%20Ducato%20Goods%20Transport%20Technical%20Specification.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 I have checked the Fiat Parts list for the 3.0 litre engines and shows two chains, one must be oil and fuel pumps at a guess and the longer one drives twin camshafts. Only belts are external ones for alternator, power steering pump, and air conditioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Mike the 160 sofim engine has a double chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Mike Chapman - 2010-02-14 6:27 PM ...I seem to remember that some time ago there was a posting about this indicating that one version had both a Chain Cam Drive and a Toothed Belt Timing Drive but have been unable to find this via Search... This is probably the thread you had in mind: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18524&posts=8 I'm sure there's only one basic design of Iveco Sofim 3.0litre motor used in SEVEL 'X/250' chassis and this has its cams driven by an all-chain arrangement. Sounds like your Ducato Service Manual is inaccurate, or at best ambiguous, which (let's be honest) would be no particular surprise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted February 15, 2010 Author Share Posted February 15, 2010 Thank you all for the replies and information and confirmation that, as I believed, all x/250 fitted Sofim 3 Litre 160 Bhp engines have timing chains. This has been further confirmed by Fiat Information who state that "There has never been a 3 litre 160 with a timing belt". Derek, You must be psychic, the Fiat Ducato Owners Handbook I have is incorrect. On comparison with Fiat my handbook refers to "Check Timing Belt" and "Replace Timing Belt" on the service schedule for the 120, 130 AND 160 Multijet. In the later 08/2008 printed copy the wording is changed by adding "(120 and 130 Multijet Versions)" therebye indicating that the 160 is fitted with timing chain. In the conversation with Fiat Information I mentioned Euro 5 compliance. I was informed that from September 2009 factory build, all Ducato Conversion Chassis are fitted with a 100, 120 or 160 Euro 5 compliant engine. It appears that the 130 has been dropped from the range at present. This confirms what Andy Stothert was told back in 2009 and then later denied. Apparently the comfortmatic Gearbox has also been dropped and replaced with the Dual Logic Automatic. I have asked Fiat to send me copies of the Brochures and Technical Specification for the new Engine Models and Dual Logic transmission. Regards and thank you, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Nearly right, The Comfort matic gearbox was known as Dualogic to begin with and the name changed by the time production models arrived in 2008. It will continue to be known as Comfort-matic for 2010. The 2.3 with 130hp will be dropped and for Euro 5 there will be 2 versions of the 3.0 with about 140hp and 170hp which will have twin turbo's as per the sister vehicle Iveco Daily. Not tried one of those yet, but have some on order and there are some claims of significant fuel consumption improvements on the Daily so the Ducato should be even better than it is now. Iveco/Fiat have been able to get Euro5 and the stricter EEV standard by changes to the turbos and EGR rather than the adblue (SCR) route that Ford and Mercedes will have to follow. No word on any changes to the Ducato 3.0 gearboxes though, because the vast majority have not had any problems. I know ours have been faultless. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted February 15, 2010 Author Share Posted February 15, 2010 Hello Nick, Thanks for the information, it seems that Fiat Information have their wires crossed on the Dualogic/Comfort-matic, That is unless there is a newer Autobox available. There was no mention of the 140 and 170 Bhp versions of the 3 litre in my conversation with them. Is the information about Euro 5 compliant engines being available from September 2009 build for UK supply correct or is this phased by market and if so is there any indication when these will be available in the UK? Regards, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Nick. I've a 3 litre on order with Comfortmatic gearbox. Its a panel van conversion expected in May. Do you know which engine it will have - the 140bhp or the 170bhp? The original spec was for a 160bhp engine but it looks as though things have changed since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted February 15, 2010 Author Share Posted February 15, 2010 Mike Chapman - 2010-02-15 1:24 PM In the conversation with Fiat Information I mentioned Euro 5 compliance. I was informed that from September 2009 factory build, all Ducato Conversion Chassis are fitted with a 100, 120 or 160 Euro 5 compliant engine. It appears that the 130 has been dropped from the range at present. This confirms what Andy Stothert was told back in 2009 and then later denied. Regards and thank you, Mike. Sorry Andy this reads as though you later denied having been told this in 2009. Should have read "This confirms what Andy Stothert was told back in 2009 and which Fiat denied having said". Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Mike 88, Yours will be 160hp if it is being built before September. I expect that there will be no announcement of any changes for Euro 5 until late summer and the changes will come into effect after the holiday shutdown. The revised engines have been announced for the Daily already because the introduction date for Euro 5 is earlier for the heavier vans that they sell is earlier than for 3.5T. Don't worry though, your choice remains one of the best chassis out there at any price and the 3.0 is a delight to drive. None of our 3.0 vans (auto or manual) have been any trouble at all in the two years we have run them. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 euroserv - 2010-02-15 1:50 PM ....No word on any changes to the Ducato 3.0 gearboxes though, because the vast majority have not had any problems. I know ours have been faultless. Nick My understanding is that the design of the transmissions used with the 2.2litre and 2.3litre motors of X/250 vehicles permits the reverse-gear ratio to be altered relatively simply. However, the 3.0litre motor's transmission has a completely different design, that I believe is similar to that of the 6-speed transmission used with the 140PS 2.2litre motor fitted to current model FWD Ford Transits. If that's true, then changing the 3.0litre's reverse-gear ratio would also alter some of the forward-gear ratios and the only viable solution would involve major transmission redesign - not an attractive solution for a problem that (apparently) seriously affects only a tiny percentage of overall X/250 3.0litre output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Nick. Thanks for your response. Mike Chapman's post above mentioned that the changes would take place on models produced after September 2009 but from your response it appears as though the correct date is September 2010. There is a post on another thread saying the Comfortmatic also suffers from judder but when pressed the person refuses to provide further details on grounds of confidentiality casting doubt (in my mind) on the veracity of the claim. I am therefore reassured by your comments. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I did not notice that Mike, obviously the sept 09 date is wrong. Euro 5 is being phased in for light commercials this sept. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 euroserv - 2010-02-15 4:06 PM Mike 88, Yours will be 160hp if it is being built before September. I expect that there will be no announcement of any changes for Euro 5 until late summer and the changes will come into effect after the holiday shutdown. The revised engines have been announced for the Daily already because the introduction date for Euro 5 is earlier for the heavier vans that they sell is earlier than for 3.5T. Don't worry though, your choice remains one of the best chassis out there at any price and the 3.0 is a delight to drive. None of our 3.0 vans (auto or manual) have been any trouble at all in the two years we have run them. Nick Nick - I ordered my new Motorhome last October (Autotrail Comanche with 6 Speed Comformatic auto matic gearbox). I take delivery on 1st May. I have read several magazine articles on the Comformatic gearbox and all have sung its praises. I am not technically minded at all and had my fingers crossed that it would perform as well as my current vehicle a FIAT based Swift Kontiki with 2.8 engine and 5 speed manual gearbox. From what you have said here it soumds as if I can uncross my fingers a little bit :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Big Momma, Apart from one compulsive fiddler who did not like the auto box (and lets face it, some people never will), everyone who has driven my comfort-matics love them. I have done many thousands of miles in them and don't think they could be improved upon. Delightful. Even in deep snow and ice they have exceeded my expectations and as a long distance companion they are quietly efficient; I am sure you will love yours. Nick PS. No, I do not have any connection with Fiat and I do accept that not everything Fiat makes is perfect by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted February 16, 2010 Author Share Posted February 16, 2010 Hello Nick, Mike88 et al, I have to apologise for some of the incorrect information I have posted on this thread. Unfortunately I had accepted that Fiat had given me accurate data. Fiat Information have given me incorrect information regarding when Euro 5 Compliant engines will be available for the Ducato and confused information about Comfort-Matic and Dualogic Automatic. After a heated discussion with them today I find that they had confused the Comfort-Matic with the Passenger Car Dual Logic Semi-Automatic and are now checking the release date of the Ducato with the Euro 5 Compliant Engines. They have promised a definitive answer by close of business 17th February. It seems logical that the date will not be September 2009 and I hope that no one has placed an order on this basis. It is disturbing that I have to check their information with a customer (Thank you Nick), who seems better informed than Fiat Information Centre. I will post their reply when received. Regards, Mike :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 I have received a response from Fiat. "The Conversion Chassis and Commercial versions of the Ducato with the Euro 5 compliant engines should be available from October 2010". Please note the use of the word SHOULD. May I respectfully suggest that if you are ordering a Ducato/Boxer/Relay and expect it to be Euro 5 compliant it would be worth checking with the manufacturer and the dealer before placing the order. Regards, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 But you did, Mike (albeit not before placing your order), and they didn't know! :-)Try a really hard question next time you speak to them and ask how many wheels it will have. No wonder they give varying answers on which vans judder, and which can be fixed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I have just spoken to a friend who has recently taken delivery of a number of Fiat Ducatos with the 3 litre engine and the Comfortmatic gearbox for conversion to Public Service Community Access buses (Alko chassis). The interesting thing is that they were ordered in February 2009! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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