bobalobs Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Our new van will be fitted as standard with underfloor gas tank for cooking and the fridge. It appears from various threads that in parts of Europe such as Greece there may be difficulty in refilling such tanks or that outlets are few and far between. Though the refill price is a ripoff the 907 Camping gaz cylinder from our experience is universal and we thought it would be a simple matter to fit a T piece and switch over tap to the system to enable a 907 to be attached if the underfloor tank runs dry. However we are told it is not possible even though an external barbecue point when fitted is very close to where we would propose the 907 be fitted.Before I speak direct to the converter does anyone have an explanation for the stated difficulty?The converter is normally willing to modify the standard specification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I suppose it could be to do with what you are actually asking - a 'T' piece implies that one end of the 'T' would be exposed (ie not sealed) when you don't have a bottle attached to it, which could pose quite a risk, also, you would need to have a proper gas store for the bottle (ie a sealed gas locker). There is also the need for a regulator for the 907 bottle and how this would be safely installed. A BBQ point, on the other hand, has a sealing connector and therefore once the pipe to a BBQ is removed, it is totally secure. In the end, the only way to get a full answer is to talk to the converter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 You could always plug the bottle in to the barbecue point with the appropriate fitting. That way, you do not need a tee piece permanently fitted. As Mel B says, a permanent fitting has potentially dangerous drawbacks. Your bottle would be outside of the van and barring it being stolen, it would be a lot safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Ahhhh! but how do you carry the gas cylinder on the move from one site to the next safetly. Is this why the convertor will not do it as he cannot make room for a safe locker. On the other hand if it is just a small camping Gaz cylinder are they safe to store in a normal locker? -- don't think I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I would have no qualms about carrying a gas bottle inside the van but I would ensure with a soapy water test that there is no leakage from the valve - or cap in the Gaz's case - and then I would tape the plug down to ensure it does not move in transit. Sorry Jon but I really dont see it as a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I don't think that the carrying of the bottle is the major consideration here, it's how you would SAFELY be able to attach it to the existing gas system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 High we have a 2008 Bessacar fitted with a 55 litre gas tank, I also carry a 907 bottle as a spare. The van is fitted with a bulkhead regulator, so what I have done is to fit a T piece with one pipe to the regulator, one to the gas tank and the other to the 907. I have fitted an isolator tap to each line close to the tank/bottle so that each can be turned off seperately, I have made up a bracket fitted to the chassis using excisting holes so the 907 is carried under the van protected by the side skirts it is reasonably accesible but provides me with an emergency supply should a lpg pump not be available. I had the whole set up checked by a lpg approved garage to make sure all was ok. one thing to make sure of the bottom of the bottle/tank must be a minimum of 9" above the ground. The 907 does not need a seperate regulator as I use a tail to connect it to the vans bulkhead one via the T piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Fair comment re carrying bottle, and when I think about it we have plenty of gas appliances than could a spring a leak and is more likely than a disconnected bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freewheeler Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Brambles - 2010-02-17 8:33 PM Ahhhh! but how do you carry the gas cylinder on the move from one site to the next safetly. Is this why the convertor will not do it as he cannot make room for a safe locker. On the other hand if it is just a small camping Gaz cylinder are they safe to store in a normal locker? -- don't think I would. Brambles is spot on. Reading the posts on this subject, it brings to mind why it is often necessary for legislation for our own safety. A surprising number of people, who should have the experience, aren't aware of all the implications, when it comes to gas safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 Thanks for all your views and interested to see that at least one other has managed what I propose. There is a locker which could easily be fitted with a gas drop and securing strap but I suspect it is the need for a sealed internal door under modern regulations that is the concern of the converter. So much that was accepted practice is now banned. Is a simple rubber seal still allowed? Or is it like Morgan cars that used traditional sidescreens for their hoods for nearly a century only to find that they do not comply with regulations. It is said that they now give them away free after purchase of thecar so as not to breach the regulation!!ALLEGEDLY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 There's also the "Extend a Stay" product aimed at RVs. See http://www.mobilerv.co.uk/product.aspx?productcode=66-8814 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 Thanks Derek for the link. The product with an external gas cylinder may be the simplest solution but I am interested that the product can either feed gas into the vans system or be used to fuel an external barbecue point from the vans fitted tank. So the earlier suggestion on this thread that a gas cylinder could feed gas into the vans system via the barbecue point is not as daft as might first appear. If the T piece connection to the barbecue point is between the vans regulator and the fridge/cooker then there would have to be a regulator on the camping gas cylinder? Would this work or am I being daft?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 In theory, you could use any gas bottle (with the appropriate regulator) to connect to the barbecue point. I do not do Europe in the van but have read that bottles can be obtained from markets etc quite cheaply. If it is worth your while, you could go down this road then sell them on when you are finished with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 bobalobs - 2010-02-17 5:32 PM Our new van will be fitted as standard with underfloor gas tank for cooking and the fridge. It appears from various threads that in parts of Europe such as Greece there may be difficulty in refilling such tanks or that outlets are few and far between. Though the refill price is a ripoff the 907 Camping gaz cylinder from our experience is universal and we thought it would be a simple matter to fit a T piece and switch over tap to the system to enable a 907 to be attached if the underfloor tank runs dry. However we are told it is not possible even though an external barbecue point when fitted is very close to where we would propose the 907 be fitted.Before I speak direct to the converter does anyone have an explanation for the stated difficulty?The converter is normally willing to modify the standard specification. Hi bobalobs Have you considered that, unless you are going to spend a long period in places such as Greece, in winter, using a lot of gas for heating etc., that you may not need an extra supply? Not sure how big the underfloor tank is that you are getting but it does go a long way in summer and you could ensure yours is full before you enter somewhere it is in short supply and manage till you get to another supply area? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 bobalobs - 2010-02-18 1:07 PM ...So the earlier suggestion on this thread that a gas cylinder could feed gas into the vans system via the barbecue point is not as daft as might first appear... The barbecue-point method of feeding gas into a motorhome from an external bottle seems to be a sufficiently well-known ploy that the C&CC has forbidden the practice. See http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17745&posts=24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I just wonder how safe this 'BBQ' method is ... the connection is only supposed to allow gas through to the BBQ, not back into the van - is it being damaged by doing this? I don't know, but someone might! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 IS it to do with pressure?, the barby is fed at reduced pressure after the regulator, an external cylinder could be at full cyl presure making it a bit unsafe to say the least. unless like me you have years of training and experiance, I would take care what ever you decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 It should not be a problem as long as the gas going into the system is at the regulated pressure. When all valves in the van are open ie; Fridge, Cooker etc then the system is common. There will be a supply to the barbecue point which will act like a valve to stop it going any further. When the barbecue is connected, it opens the line at that point and gas flows. All you are doing is putting gas into a common system but through a different direction. The barbecue point on my van has an on/off valve just inside the van near the barbie point. You would need to fit the other half of the barbie connector to the hose on your bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Mel B - 2010-02-18 6:59 PM I just wonder how safe this 'BBQ' method is ... the connection is only supposed to allow gas through to the BBQ, not back into the van - is it being damaged by doing this? I don't know, but someone might! Feeding a motorhome with gas from an external bottle must be considered potentially less safe than having the supply come from a fixed external tank or from bottles housed securely within the vehicle's gas-locker. As I said in the earlier thread: "As the barbecue-point employs a 'quick connect' gas hose, the arrangement may be more convenient for long-duration campers than altering the motorhome's own gas system to accept foreign gas-bottles. The method seems safe enough to me as long as the user doesn't do anything daft!" If a prospective user of the 'barbecue-point' technique fails to understand what the method entails or the potential risks it presents, then he/she shouldn't do it. There should be no need for trooper's years of training and experience to appreciate that the pressure of the gas being fed to the motorhome must be regulated prior to it entering the vehicle, or to realise what the effect is likely to be if the pressure is not regulated - all it needs is a modicum of thought and a smidgeon of common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 If gas is to be fed into the system via the barbecue point should a cutoff valve be fitted between the vans regulator and the T piece to the barbecue point to stop gas trying to go back through the regulator into the vans gas tank or will the regulator stop this happening anyway? Any idea why CCC ban this procedure on their sites other than playing around with gas or electricity must have some element of risk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Fron the Clubs website...... The Club’s Sites Committee recently undertook a review of the practice of using gas cylinders outside of units and the conclusion was that tall large external gas cylinders present an unacceptable hazard. It was agreed that the Club will encourage the use of touring caravans and motorhomes in accordance with the recommendations of manufacturers, whereby gas cylinders are located in dedicated internal storage lockers. Where it is necessary to keep a gas cylinder outside of a unit’s locker – for example where an old caravan does not have a purpose built locker – the permitted maximum size is now limited to 15kg. The cylinder must be strapped securely to the unit and connected with a short proprietary hose in good condition and not be under any strain or vulnerable to strain. The practice of using an external cylinder to feed into the caravan system via a barbeque outlet is not permitted irrespective of the size of cylinder. The new restrictions apply to all Club sites and Club events such as DA meets. There is more information on page 87 of the August 2008 issue of Camping & Caravanning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 bobalobs - 2010-02-19 8:46 AM If gas is to be fed into the system via the barbecue point should a cutoff valve be fitted between the vans regulator and the T piece to the barbecue point to stop gas trying to go back through the regulator into the vans gas tank or will the regulator stop this happening anyway?... Presumably, if you were going to fuel your motorhome's 'domestic' gas appliances via an external gas bottle connected to a barbecue-point, you'd ensure that you had turned off the motorhome's on-board gas tank (or on-board bottle) first. Otherwise you'd be fuelling the appliances from the external bottle AND the on-board tank/bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I think that to assume anyone with a modicum of thought and a smidgen of common sense is a dangerous statement to make about, what is the most dangerous of domestic heating fuels. A favourite saying in the trade used to be 'a little knowledge is a bad thing'. If you had seen some of the things we used to see, carried out by people who were more intelligent than us, you would know what I mean. Just a point, why is eurostar so particular about LPG ?. All I am saying ,take care and then some, Always think of what could happen and then some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 You mean like if the external bottle gets knocked over you get liquid LPG through the regulator and then you will certainly know about it when you light your hob and also flames shoot out of your fridge burner vent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 The usual English expression is "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". See http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/10400.html The idea that "a little knowledge is a bad thing" would suggest that having no knowledge would be a good thing, and it's doubtful that this argument could be made with any conviction even on an internet forum! What I was trying to emphasise (and thought I had) was that anyone contemplating using the barbecue-point ploy, or, for that matter, any other unusual technique, should first dedicate a few brain cells to what's involved. You shouldn't need to be an Olympic gymnast to realise that having sex while trampolining will entail some forethought if an embarrassing trip to A&E is to be avoided (and, no, I haven't tried it.) Similarly, you shouldn't need to be an experienced gas technician to appreciate that there are risks attached to the barbecue-point technique - I'm not and I can easily envisage potential dangers and unknowns with the method. Mel B asked how safe the method was and the answer has got to be "It depends". The C&CC apparently allows an external gas-bottle to be used instead of an on-board bottle, provided that the former is "strapped securely" to the caravan. If the barbecue-point method were employed and the external bottle were tethered firmly upright, then this would seem to address satisfactorily the knocking-over danger Brambles mentions. However, feeding gas into a leisure-vehicle is not what the barbecue-point was designed for and there are grey areas. Bobalobs asked if the motorhome's original regulator would prevent gas fed through the barbecue-point potentially entering the vehicle's on-board tank/bottle. I think the answer is a guarded "Yes", but that's just based on me blowing through the outlet of each of my four single-phase on-bottle regulators and noting that each seems to incorporate a non-return valve. I haven't tried this with a 30mbar dual-phase regulator, but I would guess this would be similar. The regulator on the external bottle will be 28mbar(butane) or 37mbar(propane) - the 'domestic' standards - whereas a modern motorhome will have a 30mbar regulator and gas appliances to match - will this matter? It should certainly matter if the motorhome were to the old German gas standard of 50mbar and gas were fed through the barbecue-point at a significantly lower pressure. And what if you've not turned off the motorhome's on-board tank/bottle and end up feeding propane from that tank/bottle and butane through the barbecue-point - would that matter? If the motorhome's on-board tank/bottle is turned off, steps are taken to prevent the external bottle being knocked over, the motorhome hasn't got a 50mbar gas system, and you aren't camping near people who will unhook the easily-detachable gas hose from your 'van just for the fun of it, then the barbecue-point gas-feed technique is (as far as I'm concerned) as safe as any involving an external gas-bottle. But I can well understand why the C&CC has forbidden it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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