FIAT or FORD?

[RogP]

 

Fiat=FWD, Ford=RWD

 

 

RWD - probably explains why I didn't prefer the Ford then - I hated the BMW 5 series I just got rid off. Worst car I've ever driven (IMHO) especially on wet , greasy or mildly uneven roads.......thinking about it that's pretty much every road I use daily to work (well the uneven bit !!!!)

[Derek Uzzell]

RogP - 2010-02-27 7:32 AM

 

 

Fiat=FWD, Ford=RWD

 

 

RWD - probably explains why I didn't prefer the Ford then - I hated the BMW 5 series I just got rid off. Worst car I've ever driven (IMHO) especially on wet , greasy or mildly uneven roads.......thinking about it that's pretty much every road I use daily to work (well the uneven bit !!!!)

 

Which Hymer model did you own, please?

 

I initially accepted your statement that your Hymer used the Transit 2.4lt motor (which meant RWD), then I had reservations as I didn't think Hymer had ever made RWD Ford-based motorhomes and, on checking a 2007 Hymer brochure, this appeared to be the case.

 

If your Hymer was actually FWD, then, in 2007, it would have had a 2.2litre Ford motor, either with 110PS (seemingly the Hymer standard) or 130PS optionally.

 

The 110PS motor would definitely have been no competitor for the Fiat 130PS powerplant. The 130PS Ford motor had a 5-speed gearbox, but cried out for 6-speeds. Compared to the Fiat 130PS engine with 6-speed transmission, it would have required significantly more gearchanging as there was a yawning 'gap' betwen 4th and 5th ratios.

 

The present Ford 2.2litre motor is another matter as, in 140PS form with a 6-speed transmission having ratios that suit it, it should be more than equal to the Fiat 2.3litre unit.

[Colin Leake]

Porky - 2010-02-26 5:45 PM

 

I apologise for my ignorance, but do Hobbies not have a choice of engine sizes? I assume they do in which case I would recommend the 3l automatic. Try one and see what I mean.

 

Don't assume the 3l auto will be the answer to judder problems. There are fewer about so less problems get reported. We met one chap who burnt the clutch out and was told by Fiat it was his driving. They were somewhat sheepish when he pointed out is was one of their autos.

 

I have also heard of a second driver who has had problems with the 3l auto.

 

Logical realy when you think about it as it is the same gear box with the same ratios but operated automatically.

[Mike88]

Colin.

 

Could you please provide details of the Comfortmatic vehicles where problems have occurred. What were the mileages and how old were they? What were the symptoms? What kind of motorhomes were the judderers? Did Fiat honour the warranty etc.

 

There was another poster on here who "knew" of two Comfortmatic judderers but when questioned he said he could not give details for "confidentiality" reasons. Further requests for specific information were met with a negative response.

 

Now we all know that in theory the Comfortmatic should judder but the experiences of people so far is that it doesn't. We have all heard stories from people about such and such a problem. Its a bit like gassing where a story gets exaggerated to the point where irrational people become afraid to use their vehicles abroad. Each time a story gets passed on the facts become exaggerated.

 

So, if you've got specific details of Comfortmatic judder then let's hear it. Otherwise its best not to spread alarm and despondency amongst satisfied and prospective Comfortmatic owners.

 

If you have not got specific information and you have merely been told something by someone then I suggest that it is inappropriate to comment.

[Colin Leake]

Mike88 - 2010-02-28 5:27 PM

 

Colin.

 

Could you please provide details of the Comfortmatic vehicles where problems have occurred. What were the mileages and how old were they? What were the symptoms? What kind of motorhomes were the judderers? Did Fiat honour the warranty etc.

 

There was another poster on here who "knew" of two Comfortmatic judderers but when questioned he said he could not give details for "confidentiality" reasons. Further requests for specific information were met with a negative response.

 

Now we all know that in theory the Comfortmatic should judder but the experiences of people so far is that it doesn't. We have all heard stories from people about such and such a problem. Its a bit like gassing where a story gets exaggerated to the point where irrational people become afraid to use their vehicles abroad. Each time a story gets passed on the facts become exaggerated.

 

So, if you've got specific details of Comfortmatic judder then let's hear it. Otherwise its best not to spread alarm and despondency amongst satisfied and prospective Comfortmatic owners.

 

If you have not got specific information and you have merely been told something by someone then I suggest that it is inappropriate to comment.

 

The motorhome was a Rapido the same make as ours which is how I got to talking to the owners. The problem was a burnt out clutch. He did not specifically mention juddering so I have no idea if this was a problem as well or not. I have no idea of the mileage but the motorhome was nearly new so I assume it was not great. Since the information came to me first hand from the owner I have no reason to doubt his word. This may well have been an isolated incidence though I have heard second hand of another.

 

It's no use you accusing me of spreading alarm and despondency all I'll doing is passing the information along. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than knowing the problem had gone away as we would very much like a new motorhome on a Fiat with the 3l engine.

 

As

[Mike88]

Colin. Thanks. This clearly something that Comfortmatic owners (including me) need to keep an eye on. I've also posted your comments on the Fiat transmission thread as this is concerned specifically with such problems.

 

There is always a danger with posts such as yours that you may have heard the information fifth or sixth hand in which case the whole picture becomes distorted. However, I'm not accusing you of anything but merely pointing out the dangers of taking seriously information that cannot be substantiated.

 

There was an implication in your post that the Comfortmatic judders even though you did not specifically say so. But thanks anyway for the further explanation. I do not doubt what you say but hope these instances you know of are isolated and not symptomatic of problems to come.

[Rayjsj]

I don't think anyone is accusing anyone of spreading alarm and despondancy, it's about getting accurate information about this ongoing problem, not all people who run Motorhomes read this forum,so there must be a great many out there who believe their dealer when he says 'Yours is the only one with this problem' , it's all about 'Divide and Conquer' by Fiat, by any means except Financial (only when there is no other way !!) Ray

PS back to the Thread, 'Go for a Ford' do you really want to risk the hassle of a 'Sevel' ??

[Colin Leake]

Just another thing that has occurred to me. When we were looking at a Swift Group Bassacar an honest dealer advised us not to go for the 3l engine as Swift only provided it with the Auto box and he had found found great difficulty in accurately placing a Motorhome on leveling blocks with this.

 

I opened a thread on this and half those who replied declared it to be no problem and the other half impossible so make what you like of that but it might be worth asking to try one before ordering.

 

In the end I did not like the build quality and some silly design shortcomings with the Bassacar so I lost interest.

[Mike88]

The motorhome dealer clearly didn't know what he was talking about as the 3 litre comes in manual and automatic form. Its impossible to try a Comfortmatic as dealers simply do not have them.

 

I can't see how placing an automatic on levelling blocks is any more difficult than a manual. I had no problem with my auto Transit so don't see why the Fiat should be any different as the software should cope with any variations.

 

I have seen a 2.3 litre try going on to levelling blocks and the thing shook and shuddered and smelt to the point where the driver gave up.

[RogP]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-02-27 9:49 AM

 

 

Which Hymer model did you own, please?

 

Hi Derek

 

its was a 642U but it was actually a Dealer special hence why not in the brochure. The dealer wanted to guage reaction to the 'special' to see if it was worth ordering vans with any or all of the options.

 

 

[Colin Leake]

Mike88 - 2010-03-01 5:21 PM

 

The motorhome dealer clearly didn't know what he was talking about as the 3 litre comes in manual and automatic form. Its impossible to try a Comfortmatic as dealers simply do not have them.

 

I can't see how placing an automatic on levelling blocks is any more difficult than a manual. I had no problem with my auto Transit so don't see why the Fiat should be any different as the software should cope with any variations.

 

I have seen a 2.3 litre try going on to levelling blocks and the thing shook and shuddered and smelt to the point where the driver gave up.

 

Swift will only supply the 3l as an automatic so there was no choice. I did contact them to see if they would built a manual version for me and the answer was NO.

 

The dealer certainly does know what he is talking about. His site has a slight slope and he displays most of his stock on leveling blocks ans was referring to problems he had personally had.

[Mike88]

Colin Leake - 2010-03-02 4:01 PM

 

Swift will only supply the 3l as an automatic so there was no choice. I did contact them to see if they would built a manual version for me and the answer was NO.

 

The dealer certainly does know what he is talking about. His site has a slight slope and he displays most of his stock on leveling blocks ans was referring to problems he had personally had.

 

How strange. My Swift - a small Mondial - was offered in both automatic and manual form. If a Mondial is available in all formats I would have thought that would be the case across the entire range.

 

The options for each model are on the Swift site here:

 

http://www.swiftleisure.co.uk/Motorhomes/Swift

 

 

[Mel B]

Ford - we've currently got a Mk 6 and have driven a Mk 7 (standard SWB van) to London and back (over 13 hours in one day!) and it was an absolute dream, even though I had the bench type seats and hubby had the normal driver's seat, neither of us had any problems with them at all.

 

We did consider Fiat vans and motorhomes at the weekend and had a good shuftie at many when we were at the NEC, we looked for layouts we liked rather than what base vehicle it was on, to try to narrow down what we wanted and what we didn't. We eventually plumped for a Ford based van (2.2, 140bhp) Chausson Flash 04. We could've bought it on a Fiat base (at a much higher price and a little bit better spec), but we decided we just could NOT take the risk of our new pride and joy having judder etc problems.

 

We like to go to out of the way places (like Andy & Marion) and the thought of being stuck somewhere with a bust motorhome just doesn't bear thinking about and/or the hassle of having to get it 'fixed' if that's the right word seeing as it doesn't always work from what I've heard first hand from owners of such afflicted vans!

 

Had we decided to take the risk and got the Fiat one I'm sure I'd have been worrying about it and I really do NOT need that when I'm supposed to be having fun! As we intend to sell the car when we get it and have the motorhome as our only form of transport it would cause untold problems if it was stuck in a garage somewhere broken.

 

 

[Mel B]

Mike88 - 2010-03-02 5:11 PM

 

Colin Leake - 2010-03-02 4:01 PM

 

Swift will only supply the 3l as an automatic so there was no choice. I did contact them to see if they would built a manual version for me and the answer was NO.

 

The dealer certainly does know what he is talking about. His site has a slight slope and he displays most of his stock on leveling blocks ans was referring to problems he had personally had.

 

How strange. My Swift - a small Mondial - was offered in both automatic and manual form. If a Mondial is available in all formats I would have thought that would be the case across the entire range.

 

The options for each model are on the Swift site here:

 

http://www.swiftleisure.co.uk/Motorhomes/Swift

 

 

Mike - not sure how you're reading it but on all of the ones where there is the option to upgrade the engine (prices tab) it says:

 

"Upgrade from 130 MJ to 160 MJ engine with Comfort-Matic auto gearbox"

 

That also applies to the Mondial, so it appears that you cannot get the larger engine without the automatic gearbox. :-S

[Derek Uzzell]

This is a suggested 'formula' for the X250 juddering phenomenon:

 

J = V + E + G + S + D

 

J: The likelihood and/or severity of the JUDDERING characteristic - the higher the J value, the greater the likelihood/severity of the problem.

 

V: The VEHICLE itself, taking account of its size, weight and design.

 

E: The ENGINE involved (2.2litre, 2.3litre, 3.0litre) and its state of tune (100PS, 120PS, 130PS, 160PS).

 

G: The GEARBOX (and its overall reverse-gear ratio) used on the vehicle.

 

S: The SITUATION (ie. what is being demanded of the vehicle at the time).

 

D: The DRIVER and his/her ability/adaptability to cope with the vehicle's capabilities.

 

Now, I don't for a moment suggest that this formula offers any reliable way of assessing whether or not a particular make/model of motorhome would be immune to juddering. Nevertheless, there is some logic behind it and it does indicate that several variable factors are involved.

 

Values for variables V, E, G, S and D can be assigned on a low-to-high basis using common sense and what's been learned from X250 motorhomes that have shown the fault.

 

For example, the larger/heavier the motorhome the higher the value to be assigned to V. The higher the overall reverse-gear ratio, the higher G becomes, etc.

 

If a large, heavy X250-based motorhome with an ultra-high overall reverse-gear ratio is to be reversed up a 1-in-4 incline at a snail's pace by an inexperienced (or inept) driver, it should be plain that the J-value (and the likelihood of severe juddering occurring) will be high.

 

This is another version that predicts the likelihood of mechanical damage being caused, where T = TIME.

 

J = V + E + G + (S x T) + D

 

Where Comfort-Matic is concerned, assuming that 'automatic' and equivalent manual gearboxes are identical except for the clutch-operating arrangement, there's no good reason to think Comfort-Matic-equipped motorhomes should be genuinely immune to juddering. OK, the 'D' value should drop to zero, and the 'G' value might also reduce, but - no matter how clever Comfort-Matic's electronic wizardry - drive between motor and wheels is still being provided by a conventional friction-clutch and, if the '(S x T)' value is pushed high enough, there's every chance the clutch will overheat.

 

Having been entertained by the levelling-blocks-climbing antics of some motorcaravanners, I'm not at all surprised by the suggestion that this exercise may prove trickier for Comfort-Matic-equipped motorhomes than for manual gearbox versions. This is where the 'D' factor comes in - if a driver can't (or won't) adapt to Comfort-Matic's design characteristics (and the easy ability to climb levelling-blocks won't have been a testing high priority), then he/she may well find the task more challenging than with a manual 'box. But it certainly shouldn't be "impossible" - it will just need a different technique.

[Colin Leake]

Mike88 - 2010-03-02 5:11 PM

 

Colin Leake - 2010-03-02 4:01 PM

 

Swift will only supply the 3l as an automatic so there was no choice. I did contact them to see if they would built a manual version for me and the answer was NO.

 

The dealer certainly does know what he is talking about. His site has a slight slope and he displays most of his stock on leveling blocks ans was referring to problems he had personally had.

 

How strange. My Swift - a small Mondial - was offered in both automatic and manual form. If a Mondial is available in all formats I would have thought that would be the case across the entire range.

 

The options for each model are on the Swift site here:

 

http://www.swiftleisure.co.uk/Motorhomes/Swift

 

 

Take a look on that site and you will see for yourself they only offer the 3l with the auto.

[Mike88]

I'm wrong again. I put it down to another senior moment. :-(

[Derek Uzzell]

Colin Leake - 2010-03-03 9:39 AM

 

Take a look on that site and you will see for yourself they only offer the 3l with the auto.

 

Sorry, but you are misinterpreting the information on the Swift Group website.

[Mel B]

Derek .... Qui? 8-)

[Derek Uzzell]

Mel B - 2010-03-03 5:52 PM

 

Derek .... Qui? 8-)

 

Mel

 

OK, "misinterpreting" was a poor choice of word.

 

Nevertheless, it is still possible to purchase Swift Group motorhomes with the 3.0litre motor and a manual gearbox from within the Kon-Tiki or Bessacarr E700 ranges.

 

Models in those ranges come as standard with the 3.0litre motor, except for the Kon-Tiki 665P and Bessacarr E-765 models that have the 2.3litre motor as standard with (according to Swift's website) the options to "Upgrade from 130 MJ to 160 MJ engine £2,171.20" and a "Comfort-Matic automatic gearbox (only available with 160MJ engine) £1,604.13"

 

The total of the two options comes to £3775.33, which is the price in the other Swift Group ranges for upgrading (where the option is offered) from a 2.3litre motor directly to the combination of a 3.0litre motor with Comfort-Matic gearbox.

[Colin Leake]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-03-03 3:00 PM

 

Colin Leake - 2010-03-03 9:39 AM

 

Take a look on that site and you will see for yourself they only offer the 3l with the auto.

 

Sorry, but you are misinterpreting the information on the Swift Group website.

 

Please explain how I am misinterpreting this. It says on the site for the bassacar 560 we were looking at upgrade 130MS to 160MS with auto £3775. The dealer told me the 3l was only available with the auto box which he did not recommend. I also phoned Swift and asked if they would do a 3l manual and the answer was most definitely NO. Where exactly do you suggest they offer a manual 3l option. Am I going mad or missing something. If it is the latter just what am I missing?

[Brian Kirby]

For what its worth, if that is the van you want, having regard to its price, I would go for the Elegance Pack + 160MJ auto.  It is a big van, so probably more judder prone than the smaller ones, and the auto (for whatever reason) seems the least prone to this fault of all.  It would be a shame to spend nearly £50,000 on a plate of jelly!

[Derek Uzzell]

Colin

 

You said "...an honest dealer advised us not to go for the 3l engine as Swift only provided it with the Auto box...", "Swift will only supply the 3l as an automatic..." and "Take a look on that site and you will see for yourself they only offer the 3l with the auto". It's difficult to interpret your statements other than that they are intended to apply to all current Swift Group motorhomes.

 

If you had been specific and said something on the lines " Swift will only supply a Bessacarr E-560 with the 3litre motor/Comfort-Matic gearbox combination as an option to the standard 2.3litre power-plant", or even "For most models Swift will only supply the 3l as an automatic...", then I wouldn't have quibbled.

 

Mel B added "...all of the ones where there is the option to upgrade the engine (prices tab) it says: "Upgrade from 130 MJ to 160 MJ engine with Comfort-Matic auto gearbox". That also applies to the Mondial, so it appears that you cannot get the larger engine without the automatic gearbox". Mel's observation is generally true, but there is (apparently) an exception in the Kon-Tiki and Bessacarr E-700 ranges.

 

Mike88 had said "My Swift - a small Mondial - was offered in both automatic and manual form." Interestingly, MMM's July 2008 Mondial GT report suggests that the upgrade from the standard 120PS 2.3litre motors was directly to "157bhp 160 Multijet with Comfortmatic automatic gearbox and Driver's pack (£3995)"

 

JUst for the record, MMM published a longish piece about the Comfort-Matic gearbox, written by an owner of an X250-based motorcaravan with that transmission. The article commented that putting the vehicle on to levelling-blocks had proved simpler than carrying out the same exercise with the writer's other motorhome, an A-S Nuevo.

[Colin Leake]

Brian Kirby - 2010-03-03 11:23 PM

 

For what its worth, if that is the van you want, having regard to its price, I would go for the Elegance Pack + 160MJ auto.  It is a big van, so probably more judder prone than the smaller ones, and the auto (for whatever reason) seems the least prone to this fault of all.  It would be a shame to spend nearly £50,000 on a plate of jelly!

 

When we took a more detailed look there was so much we did not like about the detail and general quality such as the mindless arrangement of a strut for holding the door half open, and only one screw in each door hinge, amongst others, that we decided not to proceed with a Bassacar. Our current intention is to hold on to our present Rapido until we are sure Fiat have solved the problems. If they do we may well replace it with another Rapido. If not we have our eye on a small Compact Frankia on a Merc. May be the pound will recover a little by then as well.