Shortage of parking places.

[creakyknee]

I have been reading posts and hearing from campers in Portugal and Morroco complaining of shortage of places to stay. They appear to have been harassed by the Police and fined heavily. We have been Wintering in Portugal for the past nine years with no problem, only staying where the locals approved. I'm afraid I will not be going again, not to live waiting for a 60euro knock on the door. I think this will have serious consequences for the motorhome manufacturers and dealers. I for one will not be buying another motorhome. It seems that campsite owners have become too gready and have pressured politicians to ensure we are all coralled.

[davenewellhome]

Wow! That's a big subject for a first post. We wild camp occasionally but we don't tour in Europe so can't comment on that aspect but................There is no test before buying a motorhome and no rules governing who can or can't................which leads me to my next point.

 

There are many people who use motorhomes responsibly, considering the environment and the impact of their camping on it as well as showing consideration for the local inhabitants of the places they stop in. Sadly there is a significant number that only consider themselves and feel they have some "god" given right to park wherever they please, do whatever they please and empty their waste (both grey and black) wherever and however they please.

 

The second group spoil life for everyone else, both the considerate motorhomers and the local populace.

 

view life from the local populations viewpoint, you've bought a nice house in a pleasant area that becomes popular with motorhome owners. Pretty soon you see them emptying toilet cassettes down storm drains, into the sea, behind bushes etc. They park on sea fronts spoiling the view that the sea front property owners paid big bucks for. They apparently have little concern for their fellow humans, certainly those who live near where they choose to make camp.

 

Sadly because the first group have little impact on local life they pass un-noticed, group two however make a big impact and tar all motorhomers with their bad practices.

 

D.

[Randonneur]

We travelled to Portugal at the end of December for the first time in a motorhome. We stayed on a site for the first 10 days at 9€ night including electric and all amenities. We wildcamped for a couple of nights in Praia da Rocha and then went onto another campsite that was 13€ per night, very large site, didn't like it so only stayed 1 night. Wildcamped for another night and then went onto another too large campsite and again only stayed 1 night, this was also €13. Finally we stayed at our last campsite for 11 days and this worked out at about 11€ per night with great amenities and electric. This site had cost the owners £2m to set up so the charges were very reasonable.

 

We saw many motorhomers wildcamping in all the places we visited each day.

 

We were so pleased with our visit that we intend going back again for a longer stay at the end of the year.

 

We do not think that the prices we paid were extortionate for the facilities we got but as I have said before, we motorhomers pay many thousands of pounds for motorhomes but there are a lot of people out there who begrudge paying for somewhere to stay.

 

We do not use campsites here in France as the number of Aires that are free and the ones that have a charge are enough for our needs but maybe not for others.

 

 

 

[PJay]

Martin

Would you like to name the sites you stayed on, please.? The long stay ones you mentioned, as we will be off there again this year in May. we prefer the smaller sites, not the all singing dancing ones as we don't use the facilities (pools clubs etc)

Pauline

[daismarg]

We were in Portugal last year and stayed at a lovely camp site which had all the things you wanted, especially for wintering on the Algarve. We stayed at Camping Ria Formosa which is in Cabanas de Tavira and it even has a train station about 5 mins from the site which goes up and down the coast, which we found to be handy as we like to leave our motor home on site, especially if staying for a month or so!

The rates were excellent, especially if you stay for a month or more as they give you a discount and  the site was always busy  so will become very popular over the years with the 'silver birds' who come from all over Europe to get some winter sunshine.

http://www.campingriaformosa.com/en/inicio/default.asp 

[creakyknee]

Hi Dave, Thanks for your reply. Where we stayed in Portugal was in front of a noisy industrial site. The motor homes hid this from the few tourists passing by on their way to the ferry. The owner of this industrial site would come some weekends in his motor home and spend time with us. All the waste was disposed off properly at the sewage works. The local traders will certainly be sorry without our money. I admit I have seen waste tipped where it shouldn't be but the amount of hassle these people got ensured they moved on very smartly. There are idiots with and without money. My grouse is not entirely about campsite charges although I think they are expensive, it's about their location and the conditions. Parking on the seafront in Winter affects very few property owners as the property is empty. I think motor home are sometimes an attractive addition to a place unlike some of the concrete block-houses erected all along the coast.

[arthur49]

davenewell@home - 2010-02-28 9:25 PM

 

Sadly there is a significant number that only consider themselves and feel they have some "god" given right to park wherever they please, do whatever they please and empty their waste (both grey and black) wherever and however they please.

 

D.

 

Yes that unfortunately is our experience. Seen 5th May 2009 at Moffat C&CC for example. Emptied cassette into grey waste grate so we all experienced the sight and smell of the remains of their meals the day before. OK not in Europe, but the minority tend to wreck it for all We did get the reg no: Brit couple in 40's in camper van. Warden/Manager got his marigolds out and cleared it up....... said its not the first time.

 

Arthur

 

[GypsyTom]

creakyknee - 2010-02-28 8:58 PMI have been reading posts and hearing from campers in Portugal and Morroco complaining of shortage of places to stay. They appear to have been harassed by the Police and fined heavily. We have been Wintering in Portugal for the past nine years with no problem, only staying where the locals approved. I'm afraid I will not be going again, not to live waiting for a 60euro knock on the door. I think this will have serious consequences for the motorhome manufacturers and dealers. I for one will not be buying another motorhome. It seems that campsite owners have become too gready and have pressured politicians to ensure we are all coralled.

It won't have the slightest effect on motorhome manufacturers and dealers. Only a small proportion of motorhomers are too mean to pay for a simple camp site and an even smaller proportion will give up a hobby they love just because they aren't allowed to park wherever they want.

As for politicians being pressured by site owners to ban off-site camping it's much more likely that these measures have come about because of pressure from residents who are heartily sick of motorhomers littering their towns.

There was a well documented incident in Spain recently where 'vans were banned from a popular beach, so they simply moved into town and parked in residential streets.

I'm all for wild camping when circumstances permit, such as in truly wild places, but I'm afraid that some of our colleagues take things too far in their efforts to avoid paying site fees.

I've no sympathy whatsoever with your stance I'm afraid and if this makes you give up motorhoming then you obviously don't love it as much as I do.

[creakyknee]

Hi Gypsy Tom, Thanks for your input. You say you do not mind wild camping in truly wild places. That's fine but I think that it will only be a short time before motorhomes will be seen as a cash cow and wherever we park someone will be at the door demanding money. The Portugese have been exceedingly friendly towards campers, it appears that the residents of whom you speak are the immigrants from here who have taken their kill joy attitudes with them. No, I doubt whether I shall go to Portugal again, I shall go to France where campers are welcomed and appreciated. By the way I am not mean, I worked hard for my money and I would rather spend it as I see fit. Is it not better to spread it around the places we stay than to give it to a campsite owner, who by definition has enough?

[Randonneur]

PJay - 2010-02-28 11:38 PM

 

Martin

Would you like to name the sites you stayed on, please.? The long stay ones you mentioned, as we will be off there again this year in May. we prefer the smaller sites, not the all singing dancing ones as we don't use the facilities (pools clubs etc)

Pauline

 

Pauline, you have a PM.

 

Sylvia

[malc d]

Motorhome owners may see the situation as a " shortage of parking places "

 

but local residents ( apart from shopkeepers ) may simply see it as

" too many vans ".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

with a ACSI card you can get camping on a site out of main season normally into June/July for between 11/13/15 euro a night.

 

By all means free camp in a low impact considerate manner...... BUT if the choice is in a large crowd and causing a nuisance, whats wrong with a cheap campsite? *-)

[Guest Tracker]

As dedicated 'off site' campers we have often been amazed at the inconsiderate and selfish way that many motorhomers of all nationalities so blatantly abuse the hospitality of the locals along the Med coast of Spain and the thing I find amazing is why the Spanish people have put up with for so long.

 

Is it so hard to find a quiet spot to park up overnight where there is nobody to offend and then return to the seaside during the daytime?

 

I don't think so as we managed it OK - but it does take a little effort to find the right places in each area and it could easily be construed as inconvenient by those too lazy to try?

 

I don't blame the local residents and authorities in the least for getting brassed off at the blatant abuse by motor caravanners as I would too if it happened here - but it certainly would not stop me going South for the Winter sun again.

 

 

[Mickydripin]

Randonneur

I have not been to Portugal in a motorhome yet but looking at the site charges that you quote it seems very cheep compared with the UK in 2008 i paid £240 a week at a site in cornwall admitted it did have a club and a swimming pool that we did not use so portugal looks very atractive.

 

Mike.

[creakyknee]

Hi Mike, A site fee of £250 a week, that's more than my wife gets in a month from her state pension. Are you a banker (?)

[Randonneur]

Mickydripin - 2010-03-01 1:43 PM

 

Randonneur

I have not been to Portugal in a motorhome yet but looking at the site charges that you quote it seems very cheep compared with the UK in 2008 i paid £240 a week at a site in cornwall admitted it did have a club and a swimming pool that we did not use so portugal looks very atractive.

 

Mike.

 

Mike, you have a PM

[malc d]

Mickydripin - 2010-03-01 12:43 PM

 

Randonneur

I have not been to Portugal in a motorhome yet but looking at the site charges that you quote it seems very cheep compared with the UK in 2008 i paid £240 a week at a site in cornwall admitted it did have a club and a swimming pool that we did not use so portugal looks very atractive.

 

Mike.

 

 

It's not just Portugal - almost anywhere across the channel is more attractive for motorhomes.

 

 

 

;-)

[Guest Tracker]

I wonder whether the 'move ons' and fines were as a result of people parking where there were signs prohibiting overnight parking as just because as guests in their country we don't speak their language does not mean we can break their rules?

 

Maybe it was at places of scientific or of natural interests or maybe it was where inconvenience was being caused to residents?

 

I don't know the answers but it would be good to have some definitive answers to help us all avoid unintentional law breaking.

 

Does anyone know whether the laws in Portugal, and Spain for that matter, allow to you park up with similar freedoms to France or whether there are greater restrictions?

 

There is the freedom to camp anywhere in Norway and Sweden but it does have to be done responsibly with no camping within 100 metres of a house and no camping or parking that may cause potential obstruction to land owners and other users.

 

It's basic common sense and consideration really and it seems to work really well. I am not sure of the legal position but motorhomes seem to be included under the general 'camping' umbrella as we saw lots of police cars and were ogten greeted with a passing wave when camped / parked 'wild'?

[GJH]

Tracker - 2010-03-01 3:37 PM

(snip)

I don't know the answers but it would be good to have some definitive answers to help us all avoid unintentional law breaking.

(snip)

One way, which would not need a guide, would be for people to check with the appropriate local council or equivalent first, rather than just assuming that they can park where they like.

 

It would probably be possible to do it by e-mail to the various possible areas to be visited before setting off.

 

Graham

[Mickydripin]

Creakyknee

No I am not a banker but the site that I had booked from the C&C club book was a compleat dump and I could not turn around and go back home as I had the grand kids with me so I found one just down the road from it just north of Newquay

[Brian Kirby]

I think, I'm afraid, that as the number of motorhomes on roads all over Europe increases, as it is doing year on year, the pressure on the relatively few honey pot areas that do not already ban, or control, "wild Camping" will be such that controls will be introduced.

Some countries may respond via the equivalent of French aires de services (as already exist in Germany and Italy), but I suspect, when confronted with the demands of campsite owners, the majority will simply refuse to spend public money on low cost installations, and legislate to ban wild camping.  It must be remembered that most French aires are owned by local municipalities, and that land in France is relatively cheap.  Even so, I doubt the benefit to many of these communities, in terms of extra trade to the boulanger, and a few Euros to the council kitty when they do charge, come close to paying for providing, and maintaining, these facilities.  Some undoubtedly must, but the majority?

The result will be more vans on campsites.  I don't think this will cause widespread crowding, because the increase in motorhomes is, to a substantial extent (with the possible exception of the Dutch), coming from caravanners who have abandoned caravans in favour of motorhomes.  Campsite occupation rates have, in fact, been falling off, and a number of sites have closed as a consequence.

Motorhoming will, therefore, tend to become more expensive, in part because of the need for sites to install hardstandings for shoulder season use, and in part because sites generally cost more than aires, and inevitably more than wild camps.

There is a hint of presumptuousness, that I'm sure John did not intend, implicit in the assumption that because one owns a motorhome, one somehow has an automatic right to visit other peoples' countries, and camp at will wherever, and whenever, we chose.  We can't do that in England, why should we expect to do it elsewhere?  Should we not, instead, express our gratitude for those who do tolerate wild camping, rather than lambasting those who don't as some kind of over controlling spoil sports?

Having seen, both in photos and in the "flesh", some of these areas when under siege, I can only say that if I lived there I think I'd be investing in a shotgun, or even a 140mm self propelled gun!  Sending the police to knock up the offenders and move them on, even if they fine them for the pleasure, is infinitely more civilised and restrained than my instincts - and I don't even live there!  :-)

[johngee]

creakyknee - 2010-02-28 8:58 PM

 

I have been reading posts and hearing from campers in Portugal and Morroco complaining of shortage of places to stay. They appear to have been harassed by the Police and fined heavily. We have been Wintering in Portugal for the past nine years with no problem, only staying where the locals approved. I'm afraid I will not be going again, not to live waiting for a 60euro knock on the door. I think this will have serious consequences for the motorhome manufacturers and dealers. I for one will not be buying another motorhome. It seems that campsite owners have become too gready and have pressured politicians to ensure we are all coralled.

 

We've not wild camped (yet!) here or abroad, and whilst I like the idea of it, at the same time I'm not too keen on visiting my favourite headlands in the Algarve (sans motorhome) and being confronted with a sea of motorhomes. It's difficult to say what might be a reasonable balance between 'freedom to roam' and an unofficial travellers encampment.

 

I would love to drive where I want, stay where I want, and do what I want, but have to accept that it is not a reality, and the needs of others have to be considered, both at home and abroad.

[creakyknee]

Hi Mike, Just joking but shows how much some people are willing to pay. I'm afraid that sort of price is outside my league. Got caught in France last year, broke down and call centre insisted we had diagnostic check, we were landed with £700 bill and engine left in bits. They didn't find the problem was the injection pump. Hoping to go to France again Apr/May.

[creakyknee]

Hi Brian, I don't understand why you are getting your knickers in a twist about a group of vans parked up. Most of us are pensioners who have worked hard all our lives, we leave the place usually more tidy than when we arrive. Do you get uptight when a load of cars all park up near you for a football match etc? Democracy is a wonderful thing when it makes decisions that suit you!

[GJH]

creakyknee - 2010-03-01 6:24 PM

Do you get uptight when a load of cars all park up near you for a football match etc? Democracy is a wonderful thing when it makes decisions that suit you!

 

It all depends on how people park up and how they behave. For the last 17 and a half years we have lived in a quiet residential road which has a secondary entrance to a school site about 100 yards away. The road isn't narrow compared to other residential roads but is not designed for nose to tail parking on both sides.

 

Never a problem originally but the growth of so-called "parental choice" bringing more pupils from some distance away to the school, coupled with the inability of many teenagers to walk more than 10 yards or get a bus has meant that the number of children being dropped off/collected by car has mushroomed in recent years.

 

The result is that many drivers park up on pavements, right on corners blocking vision for turning from one road into another and across drives, stopping residents from entering/exiting their own properties. The other day one even came onto our drive to park because the road was so busy.

 

In those circumstances I do get uptight. If some motorhome owners are behaving with the same sort of pig ignorance I'm not surprised people get upset - and it hasn't got anything to do with democracy but everything to do with responsibility for oneself & ones actions and respect for others.

 

Graham